Butch SEARCY is absolutely steadfast in his position that using the quality steel that he does, NO 3rd fastener is needed in a Dbl Rifle.

I don't know any other company that would build a 700 NE or the lessor caliber NE's without a 3rd fastener.

SEARCY has a large # of very happy customers on AR and around the world. It makes one conclude his position is well founded.

Why then, does anyboby make this devise, (double rifle action) the more complicated, labor intensive, costly way?

I of course refer to the PURDEY style, GREENER style, DOLLS HEAD style, etc.

Are people being "conned" to spend extra money on these unneeded complexities?

J.J. at CHAMPLIN ARMS gives compliments to HEYM and to CHAPUIS.

He has NOT said the same flattering things to me when I spoke to him regarding SEARCY, MERKLE and KRIEGHOFF.

What do YOU ALL say?

A traditionalist wants a 3rd fastener. A post-modern man just wants a gun that works. It is a joy to watch a well fitted greener cross bolt or doll's head lock into place as an action is closed. But the guns without them work fine too.

It is not so much the number of fasteners but the care in which they are fitted. It is also not so much the diameter of the bullet but the pressures involved.

Above all, it is the care the gun receives more than the times it is fired. Those who allow grit to not be cleaned away and those who slap the gun shut wind up with loose actions.

quote:

J.J. at CHAMPLIN ARMS gives compliments to HEYM and to CHAPUIS.

He has NOT said the same flattering things to me when I spoke to him regarding SEARCY, MERKLE and KRIEGHOFF.

I don't know enough about JJ's business, but as a thought, you wouldn't see a Ford saleperson saying that a Chevy was better made and more car for the money.

I know Champlin's sells Chapuis rifles...

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:

quote:

J.J. at CHAMPLIN ARMS gives compliments to HEYM and to CHAPUIS.

He has NOT said the same flattering things to me when I spoke to him regarding SEARCY, MERKLE and KRIEGHOFF.

I don't know enough about JJ's business, but as a thought, you wouldn't see a Ford saleperson saying that a Chevy was better made and more car for the money.

I know Champlin's sells Chapuis rifles...

I think his credentials, training and experience are not only legitimate, but probably qualify him as one of the top DR gunsmiths in the country.

If I thought he was lying to me in effort to sell me something… then I couldn’t trust his professional opinion.

Yet, in all the times I’ve called for his advice or opinion, he has never asked me to buy anything from him.

There’s another possibility here… and that is that maybe he’s telling the truth… maybe he’s being honest… and those that don’t like what they hear prefer to dismiss it with “Oh, that JJ… He’s just trying to sell you something.â€

So, is JJ a liar and a “Salesman� I don’t think so.
Does he know something that you don’t about double rifles? Probably so.

If you have first-hand knowledge of this type of questionable behavior from JJ, Then let’s hear about it. Otherwise I see no reason to bring his professional reputation to question on this forum.

For a time, J. J. was a distributor for both Merkel and Chapuis. I don't recall him ever representing Heym, but I could be wrong.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I've used JJ in the past and will continue to use him in the future without hesitation.

I think that answers any questions about what I think of the man and his experience with firearms.

Champlins sells Heym. As to a third bite, I have read quite a bit about them through the years in various publications centered around double shotguns and rifles and have come away with the impression that in the overall scheme of things, they dont make any real difference. As I recall, when they talked about the stress put on a doubles standing breech, the 3rd really did not do what early designers hoped it would do. I am going to go thru some of my books tonite and see if I can find the specifics about why they don't really work, can't remember if it was in Boothroyds, Mackintosh's or DG Journal. I know on my Westly Richards boxlock, the dolls head was a rib extension, which surprised me, as I thought they were attached to a more substantial part of the barrels. Live and learn.

Could it be possible that JJ saw the Searcy's at an early stage of developement and has held the opinion that they weren't up to snuff since then?

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
Champlins sells Heym. As to a third bite, I have read quite a bit about them through the years in various publications centered around double shotguns and rifles and have come away with the impression that in the overall scheme of things, they dont make any real difference. As I recall, when they talked about the stress put on a doubles standing breech, the 3rd really did not do what early designers hoped it would do. I am going to go thru some of my books tonite and see if I can find the specifics about why they don't really work, can't remember if it was in Boothroyds, Mackintosh's or DG Journal. I know on my Westly Richards boxlock, the dolls head was a rib extension, which surprised me, as I thought they were attached to a more substantial part of the barrels. Live and learn.

Make no mistake here, in thinking I'm in any way compareing my knowledge, on double rifle construction to that of JJ Perodeau! That would be the highth of arrogance, on my part! However, I have read every writeing by every expert who ever wrote a book on that subject. I have, as well,owned examples of almost all types of double rifle construction.

That said, I have to agree with Lee440, on this issue! The verious latches, bites, dolls heads, side clips, and bolsters on frames,all serve a purpose, but their value is not as much to strengthen the rifle, so much they are to stringthen the customer base! This falls into the old saw that a side lock double is stronger than a boxlock. IT AIN'T NECESSARILY SO! A best rifle by any maker is fitted so well that most of the EXTRAS are not actually needed, and the rifle would shoot just as well, and last just as long with nothing more than the underbolting, as long as proper use, and care was exercised.

The third fastener is simply a LAST DITCH safety, that if it is ever needed the rifle will most likely be destroyed with a very heavy over load, or obstruction in one or both barrels.

The actual "coming off face" condition is, most times, the result of poor care, and lubrication of the mateing surfaces. The proofing loads used to proof these rifles produce far more strain on the locking system than any hunting use given the rifle by a person who is not insane, in his loading, and use of the rifle!

I have, in my gun room, examples of most types of double rifle locking systems, and none are off Face, and a couple are very early Black powder rifles with nothing but Jones under levers.

IMO, which isn't worth more than you are paying for it, is, that these things don't hurt, but are not worth as much as most people think. Any rifle that has passed proof, is safe to shoot with any reasonable ammo, and will stay "ON FACE" as long as it's owner, practices proper care, and loading of, even the OFF THE SHELF double rifles, of today. SO, if you want any, or all of them, and are willing to pay the cost of them, then do your thing. Double rifles are the most labor intencive firearm in the world to produce, and anything added to the basic cost adds up quickly. I would just remind you that there is (DOCUMENTED) an old Searcy, actually one built on a Browning BSS action, that when sold to a PH in Africa, had 4000 rounds of 470NE fired through it, and was still on face, without any repair at all, and for all I know, it is still shooting today. I've never heard of a B. Searcy double rifle coming off face. Like them or not, they are strong, and accurate, and they are like the ENERGIZER BUNNY, they just seem to keep on a truckin!

......................0.2 cents

Bulldog:
No. Ask him yourself.

lee440:

I was speaking of J. J., not Champlin. J. J. doesn't work for Champlin.

With regard to your reference to the Westley's extension, yes and no. Pre-war Westley's almost always had shoe-lump barrels rather than chopper-lump, even their double rifles. This means that the lumps, and the rib extension, were brazed on. That might not seem too substantial, but shoe lump double guns with loose lumps or doll's heads are extremely rare. It worked fine. The rib extension or doll's head on a chopper-lump gun is chopper-lump - it's formed out of flanges that are integral to the barrel blanks, just like the lumps. Didn't you buy the Rodda .400? I handled it and shot it. I'm pretty sure I remember it having shoe-lump barrels.

Jack:

It isn't the third fastener that matters. It's the rib extension (straight extension like the Greener, or a doll's head, whatever). The extension helps keep the barrels square on the pin and face. Any double rifle benefits from one. With the exception of the screw-grip, third fasteners don't work.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400, thanks for the info on the types of lumps, I knew what chopper lumps were, but was unclear about shoe lumps, but it turns out they were as I guessed and yes, I bought the Rodda, JJ has it, glassing the stock, reworking the safety,etc. I really don't know exactly what George and JJ's relationship is, but when you go to Champlins site, it has both their names on the header, indicating some form of relationship, and when I talk to George, then ask for JJ, he is there. HellifIno! On JJ's above stated opinions as to other makers, I got the exact same opinion from George two months ago! I know one thing, I will sure be glad to get that gun back so I can shoot it! Lee. P.S. When you shot it(Rodda), how did it do? I am ready to do some load development.

Lee:

George and J. J. are just living in sin.

I fired a left and a right with the Rodda off-hand at maybe 15 yards with .408" Kynoch. Kinda hard to tell much from that. Gun works though.

We'll have to get the local group together for a range session when yours comes in. Bobc's new .400 is turning out to be a really nice rifle. Look forward to meeting you soon.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400, the bores slugged out @ .412, so maybe the .411 Woodleighs will shoot better. Heres keeping my fingers crossed! Looking forward to getting togeather with the "40 and over crowd" Lee.

MacD37,

If you are a picture guy I'd concider it a personal favor if you'ed put some up, actions OPEN showing all these 3rd fasteners and rib extentions. Thanks...

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
MacD37,

If you are a picture guy I'd concider it a personal favor if you'ed put some up, actions OPEN showing all these 3rd fasteners and rib extentions. Thanks...

BFJ Though I'm not a computer guy, and even find typeing to be a challenge, I'm thinking of buying a digetal camera in the next few days. Then maybe!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
BFJ Though I'm not a computer guy, and even find typeing to be a challenge, I'm thinking of buying a digetal camera in the next few days. Then maybe!

Mac, if anyone doubted it, this post proved that typing is a challenge for you.


Sorry, I'm an ass sometimes.

We ALL MUST be able to have a laugh at ourselves.

If you can do that you'll live a healthier and longer life.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
BFJ Though I'm not a computer guy, and even find typeing to be a challenge, I'm thinking of buying a digetal camera in the next few days. Then maybe!

Mac, if anyone doubted it, this post proved that typing is a challenge for you.


Sorry, I'm an ass sometimes.

quote:

We ALL MUST be able to have a laugh at ourselves.

If you can do that you'll live a healthier and longer life.

Cordially,
JACK

Fjold did that help your ego?





Jack, Laughing at myself, when it comes to typing, and spelling, has been a necessity, I'm afriad, for many years! I not only can't spell worth crap, but am dyslexic as well! I transpose letters, and some times replace the double letters for a single, and the sengle as a double letter. Example: The word "LITTLE" will sometimes come out as LTTILE, or LIITLE. I spend more time editing my posts, than writing them.

Most here realize this about me, and simply understand my meaning, and do not mention it! There are cases that are otherwise, however! I usually simply overlook the bad manners, and this is one of those cases, almost!

BFJ, don't worry I didn't take your's or Fjold's posts as insults. I apreceate the apology, though it wasn't necessary, or expeted!

I have a very streight forward way of writeing, and it seems lots of folks take some/all of my posts to be angry, when that was not my intention at all! You can be sure of one thing if I write an angry post, there will be ZERO DOUBT that it is angry!

I happen to be one of those unfortunate people who can't spell worth crap. This is partly caused by, and is compounded by my being a sufferor of Dyslexia.

Even when I put all the right letters in a word, sometimes they are transposed, or I double the wrong letters in a word that has a double letter like the word "LITTLE", it may come out LIItle, or LTTile. Then I might totally mispell it completely.

Most here, and on other web-sites where I post, are aware of my affliction, and don't mention it, Others do in jest, and some sarcasticly. Like my writing that is often taken as angry when it is not, some joke in a manner that seems sarcastic when they don't mean it that way. The computer one bad flaw, and that is one cannot read the body language, smiles, voice inflections,or facial expressions, from the key board!

No harm done, as far as I'm concerned!

Thanks for clarifying Mac, I am RELIEVED!!!

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
2006 and the experts are of the opinion that 3rd fastners are sales gimmicks? yet when looking back at the patents, the theory of double gun building and design each and every original patent holder in their day believed that they were nessesary based on the mechanics of the recoil in this construct ?

One then wonders who is right, todays shooters or the guys who actually staked reputations on their designs. Something akin to a football game...... the guys in the stands always know more about how the game should be played than those who are actually playing it

Well ALF, which are you? in the stands, or playing?

On this one Alf is in the stands out in left feild.

JPK

OK, let's settle this once and for all...

IF... IF a DR blew up in your hands would YOU want it to have 3rd, 4th or 5th fastener on it?

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
OK, let's settle this once and for all...

IF... IF a DR blew up in your hands would YOU want it to have 3rd, 4th or 5th fastener on it?

If it blew up, eveidently it didn't have enough! WOT!

.

quote:

I have the utmost respect for Mr Searcy and his rifles however can also not dismiss the fact that double rifle builders from both sides of the channel viewed third fastners as important.

Am I mistaken, but doesn't Marcel Thys rifles also NOT have third fasteners?

And in seeing Mark Sullivan's Watson Bros .700 NE that Champlin's has for sale, I don't believe that has a dolls head rib extension or cross bolt.

I think metallurgy has come a long way in the last ten, not to mention 100, years.

Am I mistaken?

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:

quote:

I have the utmost respect for Mr Searcy and his rifles however can also not dismiss the fact that double rifle builders from both sides of the channel viewed third fastners as important.

Am I mistaken, but doesn't Marcel Thys rifles also NOT have third fasteners?

And in seeing Mark Sullivan's Watson Bros .700 NE that Champlin's has for sale, I don't believe that has a dolls head rib extension or cross bolt.

I think metallurgy has come a long way in the last ten, not to mention 100, years.

Am I mistaken?

Careful, you're moving into the realm of "Fine Guns" now... and Yes, the 700 does have a hidden "3rd Bite"

"#20700, Watson Bros, 39 Redcross Way, London Bridge, England; Back Action Sidelock Ejector 700 Nitro Express Made in 1997 for African Hunter Mark Sullivan with 24 in. Chopper Lump barrels with 1/4 rib and 1 fixed standing rear sight with a front night sight, Hidden third bite, Bushed strikers, Bolstered frame..."

Yes, metallurgy has come a long way, but not enough to counter-act the basic principles of simple leverage.

If anything goes wrong and the gun tries to open, the barrels are going DOWN (with the working principle of the lever)... not UP (against it)...

A secondary measure to stop this process (and prevent gases from going into the shooters face) is placed on the opposite end of the lever to prevent the barrels from opening.

It's really a simple principle... kind of like a lock on a door.

My Marcel Thys has the Purdey or H&H style third fatener. See the photos below.





For what its worth, I think, as history has proven, that a very strong, successful DR can be made w/o any third fasteners. I think any third fastener is better than none, that the screw grip is probably the most economical and effective for the money, maybe most effective period. The hidden or Purdey...style requires much better fitting. A better fitted rifle will last longer than a lower quality rifle. Most of all I think rejointing is no big deal, if and when it becomes required.

JPK

.

Since I don't know how to edit my post I'll add more directly for New Guy and Alf that I think modern technology from steel to powder and on have come a long way since the turn of the century, WWI, WWI and even the sixties, seventies...More consistency for things that need it, more strength for things that need that...

JPK

Alf,

Our posts crossed. I do agree wholeheartedly with your most recent post!

PS, since I understand that you have moved to Canada, you might be able to catch up on "left feild" on ESPN!

JPK

Certainly similar to one Holland used on the later Dominion DRs. Slightly different shape extension though. Pretty rifle.

This whole issue is about money only. Rib extensions and third fasteners add considerable expense. Doll's head extensions with screw-grip third fasteners add a lot of expense. DRs need extensions. The argument that they are not needed arises only because many of the cheaper rifles don't have them. It's that simple. Third fasteners are not needed and many good quality British and European DRs were built without them and held up very well indeed (Jeffery is a good example). DRs with the Webley & Brain screw grip third fastener are especially resistant to coming off face. I've never seen one that was off face and have seen only one that had been re-jointed. Of the other types, I've seen numerous examples that were off face, especially those with the Greener cross-bolt.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400NE,

Maybe we could see some pic's of these you like? Thanks.

Also, how about some text book definitions: 3rd fastener, 3rd bite, rib extention, dolls head, others???

Jack,

See Hollowell's site for an excellent glossay and some good photos.

http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm

JPK

Since this was started with a question about third fasteners, and my rifles were pointed out. They're a few of you that thinks that the only authorities are the old timers from across the pond. Since that is the case, I'd like to give you some quotes from a book Written by Major Sir Gerald Burrard, in 1931(The Modern Shotgun). He was a leading authority on the design and construction of double guns. In the chapter on actions and in particular top extension he says. "There remains only the third method for preventing the downward bending of the bar of the action which causes a separation of the barrels from the action face. It will be remembered that this method was a strengthening of the actual bar itself. (This is the approach I took by adding a much higher tensil strength steel in my actions, as well as putting more depth to the bar.
In the paragraph on the concealed extension (Purdey third fastener). He states that to much reliance should never be placed on this type of top extension. He goes on to say that "I have been into this question of top extensions at considerable length because they are as often as not a snare and a delusion"
Now as to my rifles, there's rifles out there of mine that has over 6000 round through them. And with my warrenty behind all my rifles this shouldn't even be a concern.
On occasion I add a top extension to my rifles but it isn't there to keep the barrels on face, it is to stop the torqueing side to side of the barrels. I will say that if I were to use a third fastener it would be a Doll's Head with a mechanical lock such as the old Rigby or the WR.
Oh, by the way I have a Marcel Thys best sidelock here in 470 N.E. that hasen't a third fastener at all, apparently he doesn't feel it is that necessary either.
And I think some of you should be reminded that if it looks like a duck and quakes like a duck. Oh well you know the rest.

Hello Butch,

Thank you for joining in. Please check your PRIVATE MESSAGES.

Butch,

Second, Private Message sent to CORRECT the first!

.