Is there any new info that you all would like to add to the

topic of FOAM fillers or any other type of fillers? I refer to

what RIP had posted years ago that I have pasted below.

I am going to make my 50 BMG brass foam cutter this week
end for my caliber, unless.... Thanks to all.
____________________________________________

Originally by RIP

O.K. Now tell me what more is known about this quote from

Ross Seyfried. I am alarmed by just having read this in the Oct.

2002 N0. 219 _Handloader_, page 43:

"... I cannot warn too strongly against using any kind of cereal,

plastic or foam filler. While a little foam worm looks innocent

enough, I know of two very fine double rifles that have been

ruined with foam filler."

This article is about loading the .500 Express 3" cartridge (black

powder) with 40 to 46 % of the original BP load by weight using

IMR 4198 and 13 grains of the dacron pillow stuffing in that big

case. I know cereal and granulated filler are a lousy idea, but

how is that Mr. Seyfried now considers foam filler totally taboo?

Graeme Wright seemed to be leaning toward foam filler in his

latest edition of his book on loading for double rifles, and spoke

of Ross Seyfried's collaboration on some issues. So what is the

latest scoop from Ross Seyfried? How is it that the foam is bad?

Doesn't Kynoch use foam? I am perplexed.
______________________________________________

I though the standard was "Dacron"? Balls or clumps of Dacron fiber?

Although I have never used it and I don't even know exactly what it is or where to get it.

Here is a link to AR, regarding the loading the 505 Gibbs with RL15 and Dacron. I plan to try this Dacron, once I get the rest of my supplies.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/505gibbs.html

I just got back fro the range and tried foam backer rod instead of the Kynoch foam plugs. It worked well so far in my 500/450NE and some in the 450NE's. I did use 13 grains of dacron in the old 577/500 BPE with smokeless. LOL, The guys down wind didn't like the dacron blowing in their faces though.

I did notice a lot of the dacron drifting down wind on those guys.

I was in a hurry but forgot to mention that I was there with Jim White and we were shooting his 50-140 sharps with a dacron base and filled up the rest of the way with shot buffer.

We got 2246 with 450 gr. Barns and 2017 with 535 gr. Woodleighs. Jim is taking it to Kodiak at the end of the month to use with his bear permit. At 5300 foot pounds I think it will do the trick.

LMAO, Yeah one of the guys would get up and step back when I closed the breech. Next time I hope theres a bench down wind,,

Jack,
There is a lot of confusion and miss information in the use of fillers. The big problem and possible /likely damage arises when you have an air space between the filler/wad and the bottom of the bullet. This makes the bullet act like an obstruction in the barrel.
You won’t have a problem if you use a wad that is compressed when you seat the bullet.
I think the foam is probley the best choice over some of the old favorites.
Bill
PS there was a big discussion on this about a year ago or so.
http://forums.accuratereloadin...60101804&m=133108158

quote:

I just got back from the range and tried foam backer rod

Exactly what is this stuff, exactly, please?

Question for you guys - A QUESTION, NOT A CRITICISM !!!

I have loaded a lot of the cartridges listed on here and never used fillers because I use a powder that is bulky and fills the case (what we call AR2213 here) which you have over in the US but is called something else.

I was wary of using fillers if a powder was available to fill the case so have never had to use them.

Why do you all use powders and fillers and not a powder that fills the case ?

Backer rod is a foam rod used for sealing joints in construction. It comes in 1.2 inch and 5/8" diameters. It's harder than the Kynoch foam but it works. Look around at Home Depot or other hardware stores. It comes in 20' rolls for less than $5 per. Cut to length with sissors.

Someone on here mentioned it less than 2 months ago.

Mike, I mentioned it a while back.

I've been using it for a bit over a year now. I cut it with a razor blade a bit longer than the top of the powder and the base of the seated bullet. I feel this to be more precise than the pre-cut Kynoch wads and much less expensive. I purchase them at Lowe's here in Va.

BTW, Bike Rider is the one who told me about backer rod.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Question for you guys - A QUESTION, NOT A CRITICISM !!!

I have loaded a lot of the cartridges listed on here and never used fillers because I use a powder that is bulky and fills the case (what we call AR2213 here) which you have over in the US but is called something else.

I was wary of using fillers if a powder was available to fill the case so have never had to use them.

Why do you all use powders and fillers and not a powder that fills the case ?

I am seeing around the net that the powder
AR2213 IS NOW REPLACED BY AR2213SC.
The SC version is supposed to be available in
the North America market. Have you used the
SC version in the 450/400 3&1/4 round or other
NE round? What results came of it's use please?
Thanks.

Donald, I want to thank you and Bikerider forn that tidbit of information. It's helping.

http://www.bestmaterials.com/backer_rod.aspx

Scroll the above linked page down a little bit and there's

Backer Rod. At 5/8 diam. it's .625". Isn't that too much

diameter to stuff down into my case that is .545" at it's

base, just forward of the rim? And wouldn't the 1/2" diam.

be too narrow a diameter to block powder from slipping

between the foam and the case walls on the side? Maybe

I need about .530" or .535" or there abouts. Am I "off

track"?

I use 1/2 for my 500/450 and cut it just anout 3/16 longer than what the bullet seats at. It's over 1/2 diameter sized not exact.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:

I am seeing around the net that the powder
AR2213 IS NOW REPLACED BY AR2213SC.
The SC version is supposed to be available in
the North America market. Have you used the
SC version in the 450/400 3&1/4 round or other
NE round? What results came of it's use please?
Thanks.

Yes, we all had to use it as they cut off the supply of AR 2213 very quickly. I used it.

I will have to look at my notes before I comment but it worked fine in all of my guns bar one (from memory).

Not sure which it is but one of your well known powders is the same as our AR series of powders as it is all made here and shipped over in bulk.
Very stable powder.

1- Thanks 500N, I await your additional info on this point.

2- Mike Brooks, Thanks for the idea, the foam being a bit over

.5" diam., and by pushing it down the sides will bulge out to

the side walls. WONDERFUL!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
I use 1/2 for my 500/450 and cut it just anout 3/16 longer than what the bullet seats at. It's over 1/2 diameter sized not exact.

Yes Mike, that's about right. No exact science, but I usually cut it 1/8"-3/16" longer.

Good shoting to you!

Jack,
I just measured my stuff. it shows about .510 and with a bit of compression squeezes out to .535. The Kynoch #2 (.400-.500 bore)foam plugs show about .540.
They do make a 5/8" rods that's stocked here. You could look for 9/16" if you want to go larger and split the difference.

You can use "pillow filler" found at the fabric shop you can buy Kynoch plugs from Trader Keith's or you can find some foam sheets and cut your own.

I have sheets of foam and I cut my own with a bridge punch and a hammer!

The foam backers rods look like they may offer an alternative.
The whole idea is to keep the RL-15 against the primer and fill the empty space in the case.

Presuming the Kynoch Wads had "ample" research

behind them--

Which of the BACKER products seems to most

closely approximated the cell structure,

compressibility and density of the Kynoch.

BACKER ROD, CLOSED CELL
BACKER ROD, SOFT CELL
BACKER ROD, HOT ROD XL
BACKER ROD, YELLOW OPEN CELL

Or has anyone made a comparison.

http://www.bestmaterials.com/backer_rod.aspx

Thanks for that link. I had no idea there were so many types. I smell a pressure test coming.

I have shot a lot of Nitro Express loads with filler. Either dacron polyester pillow stuffing or a foam plug that I cut out with a sharpened with a chamfer tool 50 BMG case.

I am going to try some of that backer rod. I refer the closed cell foam.

I have used 3 different densities of filler, some closed some oen cell foam. It does not seem to matter one bit.

Just make sure the filler is compressed enough, that with rough handling, the filler always stays compressed.

ie, after a while if you can shake the loaded round and hear the powder, your filler is not compressed enough.

The fillers I have used, dacron, or the 3 different kinds of foam, show NO signs of burning, or melting.

NFMike,

My thoughts exactly-


I stared years ago with cotton, then kapok, then dacron.

I used some foam in some NFB loads mostly with Varget.

I do not have a strain gauge setup.

Pressure testing would be very interesting I think.

I have loose dacron, the stiffer backer rod, and Kynamco foam. I think I will order all the types of backer rod you refered to. It will have to wait until I get finished with 500N as it doesn't need filler with RE15.

One does not charge a case about 40% loading density and then nilly-willy fill the large space with anything. Ross was in reference to great big BP cases and powder that did not exist when he wrote the article. He has also, over the years discovered three different "perfect" replacement powders for the old cases.
I think every other year so far.

Filler, especially the foam backer in 1/2"-3/4" lengths is a standard practive. Kynoch even sells them.

Rich
DRSS

Rich,

I would not presume Mike, Tony ,You nor I would--

"Willy-Nilly"--

approach reloading of valuable DR's (or any firearm) that would be in close proximity to someones face, particularly our own.

The question was posed in reference to the various reports of the apparent use of the "BACKER" brand name product
in lieu of the presumed to be "researched" Kynoch product or the long established --dacron.

My question was specific to approximating

"the cell structure, compressibility and density of the Kynoch"

and queries to those who may had approached the relatively "new" product in that reasoned manner.

As to my reference to cotton and kapok I have not used them since the 80's when I was introduced to dacron.

BTW, those materials were "taught" to my by reloaders that have long since passed on --from old age- not reloading incidents.

It appears Mike has the tools and knowledge to approach this "query" with a reasoned approach.



Or did I totally misinterpret your intent?

I stopped by Home Depot today, and picked up this "Poly Foam Caulk Saver"...

1/2" OD, 20 ft long for $3.79.

It is more dense than the foam I've used in my Pelican cases.

What a rip. Paid 3.99 at my local hardware store.

The stuff I got at Menards was just like you got Chris, pretty stiff. I will get all the different ones and compare. Doubt if there is much difference in pressure though but we'll see. Going to be a lot of disappointment in the 450-400 with RE15 huh Will?

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
The stuff I got at Menards was just like you got Chris, pretty stiff. I will get all the different ones and compare. Doubt if there is much difference in pressure though but we'll see. Going to be a lot of disappointment in the 450-400 with RE15 huh Will?

I'm guessing you will be hard put to get much of anything meaningful from testing wads. I hope I am wrong though. Presuming that any wad adds to the pressure, how is that determined? From two tests that have identical velocities but the round with the wad is operating at higher pressure? I suppose the way to do the tests is to test enough rounds with and without wads and then one could just plot the two results of pressures versus velocity and determining graphically the approximate pressure difference between wads and no wads.

I thought of the .450/.400 when I was a child but have now become a man and have moved up to a man's cartridge, that uses RL-15. When I was a child I worried about pressures but now that I am a man and senile I crank it up until I get the velocity I want and flagrantly disregard pressure.

Chris

Looks like the same stuff that Lowe's here in Va. sells as "backer rod". FYI, usually, I can find someone at Lowe's who can speak english. Can't say the same for Home Depot's here!!

I bought it in 3/8", 1/2" and 5/8".

Works very well for .366-.584

"I'm guessing you will be hard put to get much of anything meaningful from testing wads. I hope I am wrong though. Presuming that any wad adds to the pressure, how is that determined? From two tests that have identical velocities but the round with the wad is operating at higher pressure? I suppose the way to do the tests is to test enough rounds with and without wads and then one could just plot the two results of pressures versus velocity and determining graphically the approximate pressure difference between wads and no wads."

Age must make you forgetful too. We just did this and yes, the filler raised pressures BUT did make it more consistent. Just have to compensate for the filler induced pressure increase. Also, the "without wads" was a disaster with spiking high pressures. If you are going to use RE15 (and you know that is not the best powder) then it will certainly require a wad, question is if one type is better than another.

"I thought of the .450/.400 when I was a child but have now become a man and have moved up to a man's cartridge, that uses RL-15. When I was a child I worried about pressures but now that I am a man and senile I crank it up until I get the velocity I want and flagrantly disregard pressure."

Another advantage of getting old, something is going to kill us so might as well be something excessive (pressure, cigars, whiskey, loose women, etc)

You're right. Like totally senile. I went back and saw that the wad made a big, big difference. Too bad I guess. A wad is not a friend of low pressure.

So I guess the 500 NE tests were with wads also?

Nope, RE15 in the 500N requires no wad at least with the monos I was testing. There was a tiny amount of space with OPBs (other peoples bullets) but not enough to be concerned with IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
Nope, RE15 in the 500N requires no wad at least with the monos I was testing. There was a tiny amount of space with OPBs (other peoples bullets) but not enough to be concerned with IMO.

Thanks. I was suppose to ask that the other day but I forgot. Someday when I grow up I hope to have the courage to shoot a 500!

By the time the barrel is whacked off to 24" the velocity might go to 2050 ft/s (maybe not quite so low) and to jack it back up to 2150 ft/s the pressure will increase from 40 kpsi to about 45 kpsi, which is higher than the CIP limit (41 kpsi).

Not sure one can run the 500 NE full throttle with 24" barrels, which most of them are, at least within CIP. Just have to live with the lower velocity.

I think it would be closer to 2100 than 2050. That sounds pretty standard for a 24".

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
I think it would be closer to 2100 than 2050. That sounds pretty standard for a 24".

If that is true, then the pressure would be about 42.5 kpsi. Maybe close enough.

I could live with 2100 ft/s, if not my retinas.

Past my bed time. Thanks for everything.

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
Nope, RE15 in the 500N requires no wad at least with the monos I was testing. There was a tiny amount of space with OPBs (other peoples bullets) but not enough to be concerned with IMO.

Mike,

So with the 570 gr NF FNS & 92.5-93 gr of Rl-15 in the .500 NE...you did NOT use foam filler wads and do NOT see a need for them???