quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
The stuff I got at Menards was just like you got Chris, pretty stiff. I will get all the different ones and compare. Doubt if there is much difference in pressure though but we'll see.

I just loaded up a bunch to try with RL 15 and the 400gr cup points.

Will report back on velocity, accuracy, etc... no pressure equipment on my end.

My little contribution ! I use 0.5" fiber fillers from BPI 28 gauge for reloading the 577NE cartridges and 20 gauge for reloading the 600NE cartridges .

Nope, no filler. That is ~98-99% load.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
Nope, RE15 in the 500N requires no wad at least with the monos I was testing. There was a tiny amount of space with OPBs (other peoples bullets) but not enough to be concerned with IMO.

Mike,

So with the 570 gr NF FNS & 92.5-93 gr of Rl-15 in the .500 NE...you did NOT use foam filler wads and do NOT see a need for them???

I have not rung out the 450-400 with NF bullets but I can tell you that I did not like ( I can hear the gasps) RE15 in the 450-400. Pressures were much higher than most folks think. This was with OPBs cup and core bullets. Be careful.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
The stuff I got at Menards was just like you got Chris, pretty stiff. I will get all the different ones and compare. Doubt if there is much difference in pressure though but we'll see.

I just loaded up a bunch to try with RL 15 and the 400gr cup points.

Will report back on velocity, accuracy, etc... no pressure equipment on my end.

A question I have asked before but no one seems to like giving an answer - apart from the fact everyone seems to like


Why do people seem to insist on using a powder that requires a filler when using another powder that almost fills the case and requires no filler could be used ?

I always go with the powder that fills the case but I have tried the powders that take up less space and the guns still regulate with both so I am don't adhere to the theory that guns only regulate with the lower volume powders.

Any comments, especially in light of some of the pressure comments in this thread.

.

I hate wads and fillers too, but I use whatever powder shoots the best and whatever combination of wads and fillers. IMR 7383 is a bulky powder that works great in all the big Nitros. Everybody seems scared of it so I don't recomend anyone using it.

I agree with using whichever powder shoots best, but I have only ever heard of a few guns here that are that particular to one (faster, less dense) powder and won't work with slower bulkier powders.

Graeme Wright put me off fillers unless absolutely necessary.

Considering the powders we use here are available in the US, it just surprises me.

I don't think many people here are fans of RL15 for DR's.

.


Edit

I wonder if it has something to do with Sigfried or one of the other writers pushing something different. After all, by the time the US DR level of interest and sales took off, loads for most calibers had been worked out.

The powders I have settled on for my use are IMR-4831 for the 465 Nitro and H-4831 for the 470 Nitro.The only advantage I see to using R-15 is a little less recoil and since I have never felt any recoil when I have shot at an elephant or buff with any caliber, I just don't see the need to mess with fillers and R-15.

465H&H

What do you reload ? There is a big difference between a 470NE and a 600NE ! Too much powder and you have ignition problems ! On the other side the barrels of a DR are too short for 170 or more grains of IMR7838 ! Powders like IMR4350 or IMR4831 on one side or powders like IMR3031 on the another side work very well in the very big cartridges like the 577NE or the 600NE ! In both cases you have a space and for a good ignition you need a little compression of the powder , the reason of the wad !

If you own a modern double rifle you should use whatever powder your rifle like to duplicate factory regulation.

I use RL-15 in my vintage British double because I am concerned with pressure curves. RL-15 comes close to the pressure curve of Cordite (according to Ross Seyfried) that my rifle was regulated with and of course is not available to the reloader.

Having said that, it's your rifle and you should use what you like, period! After all, that's what I do!

quote:

Originally posted by grandveneur:
What do you reload ? There is a big difference between a 470NE and a 600NE ! Too much powder and you have ignition problems ! On the other side the barrels of a DR are too short for 170 or more grains of IMR7838 ! Powders like IMR4350 or IMR4831 on one side or powders like IMR3031 on the another side work very well in the very big cartridges like the 577NE or the 600NE ! In both cases you have a space and for a good ignition you need a little compression of the powder , the reason of the wad !

600NE, ok, but very few around.

I was referring more to the mainstream 375's up to the 465/470 class which is where most people fall into.

I understand the huge cases like 475 etc also fall into the filler maybe required catergory.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
I agree with using whichever powder shoots best, but I have only ever heard of a few guns here that are that particular to one (faster, less dense) powder and won't work with slower bulkier powders.

Graeme Wright put me off fillers unless absolutely necessary.

Considering the powders we use here are available in the US, it just surprises me.

I don't think many people here are fans of RL15 for DR's.

.


Edit

I wonder if it has something to do with Sigfried or one of the other writers pushing something different. After all, by the time the US DR level of interest and sales took off, loads for most calibers had been worked out.

What? Don't know about the other editions but in Wright's 2nd edition he uses RL-15 for the .450 NE. Maybe he was getting paid.

There really is a difference in recoil between using 4831 and RL-15, but the price to be paid is using a wad with RL-15 and the higher pressure it causes.

Maybe 4831 (AA2213) might be better for the .450 NE in the long run since it needs no wad but where is the pressure data for any bullet much less Woodleigh softs and solids, NF solid, etc????

Without pressure data it is all just pull the trigger and hope it doesn't blow. Doesn't sound like much of a plan to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

What? Don't know about the other editions but in Wright's 2nd edition he uses RL-15 for the .450 NE. Maybe he was getting paid.

There really is a difference in recoil between using 4831 and RL-15, but the price to be paid is using a wad with RL-15 and the higher pressure it causes.

Maybe 4831 (AA2213) might be better for the .450 NE in the long run since it needs no wad but where is the pressure data for any bullet much less Woodleigh softs and solids, NF solid, etc????

Without pressure data it is all just pull the trigger and hope it doesn't blow. Doesn't sound like much of a plan to me.

Graeme Wright tries to provide as much info on DR's as he can.


The 450NE is a good example - use a powder as suggested (which is what I used), no wad needed, no problems and more importantly, no worries.

or the alternative as you said !!! ...............

quote:

The 450NE is a good example - use a powder as suggested (which is what I used), no wad needed, no problems and more importantly, no worries.

Is there data in the 3rd edition for the .450 NE using something other than RL-15?

quote:

Is there data in the 3rd edition for the .450 NE using something other than RL-15?

H4350
H4831SC
AR2209
AR2213SC
RL 19
IMR 4831

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
I have not rung out the 450-400 with NF bullets but I can tell you that I did not like ( I can hear the gasps) RE15 in the 450-400. Pressures were much higher than most folks think. This was with OPBs cup and core bullets. Be careful.

I hear ya. Personally, I've always tried to avoid fillers, but I get a lot of reloading questions about them, and I would like to get a little more experience with them.

4831 has always shot well for me in the 400, but the velocities can have some pretty significant spreads.

When you set up your 400 barrel for pressure testing, I'd be glad to send you some of these to see how they rate... it would be interesting to compare RL 15 velocities and pressure in the 400.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
I have not rung out the 450-400 with NF bullets but I can tell you that I did not like ( I can hear the gasps) RE15 in the 450-400. Pressures were much higher than most folks think. This was with OPBs cup and core bullets. Be careful.

I hear ya. Personally, I've always tried to avoid fillers, but I get a lot of reloading questions about them, and I would like to get a little more experience with them.

4831 has always shot well for me in the 400, but the velocities can have some pretty significant spreads.

When you set up your 400 barrel for pressure testing, I'd be glad to send you some of these to see how they rate... it would be interesting to compare RL 15 velocities and pressure in the 400.

You send me a copy of the 450 data and I'll show you the pressure test results for the 450/400!!

Chris

Go ahead and send them. I'll see what they read. Same email as before. if you need the address again.

The 450-400 tests were a team effort of myself and Will. Will supplied the barrel and factory ammo and I supplied the rifle, test equipment, time, powder, and primers.

Will, you missed the content of some of our emails. The EXACT reason to use filler is consistency and that it did well. The least ES load was with RE15 and a filler. Yes, the filler (as all fillers do in every test I have ever done) raises pressures somewhat but the consistency is worth it. Remember when I specifically DIDN'T use the filler to see what would happen? That's when I had a pretty large pressure excursion. The filler keeps that from happening.

My issues with RE15 in the 450-400 is not whether it requires a filler or not, the stuff just runs pressures much higher than factory/CIP at least at the velocities that I often see quoted. If anyone is loading a 400 grain bullet to 2150 from a 24" barrel, you are running ~15% higher than factory pressures. If someone doesn't care, fine by me. It's not my gun and I ain't my brothers keeper. Besides, no one ever said that "factory" pressures are the be all end all. I always found it odd that the 450-400 is held to ~40K while, chambered in the same rifles, the 450-3.25 is ~45K. Basically the same head size so there is no difference in breech thrust.

Anyway, I will be screwing the barrel back on (had been waiting for more 500 stuff but it didn't show yet) and doing some tests next week.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
I have not rung out the 450-400 with NF bullets but I can tell you that I did not like ( I can hear the gasps) RE15 in the 450-400. Pressures were much higher than most folks think. This was with OPBs cup and core bullets. Be careful.

I hear ya. Personally, I've always tried to avoid fillers, but I get a lot of reloading questions about them, and I would like to get a little more experience with them.

4831 has always shot well for me in the 400, but the velocities can have some pretty significant spreads.

When you set up your 400 barrel for pressure testing, I'd be glad to send you some of these to see how they rate... it would be interesting to compare RL 15 velocities and pressure in the 400.

While I'm at it, don't anyone be smug if you are using 4831 or 4350. Their ONLY advantage was taking up more space. The pressure curves did not indicate any benefit over RE15 AND they didn't provide any great (almost none) increase in velocity for a given pressure. That did surprise me but that is what they did. And this is all with cup and core bullets; nothing "exotic".

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
While I'm at it, don't anyone be smug if you are using 4831 or 4350. Their ONLY advantage was taking up more space. The pressure curves did not indicate any benefit over RE15 AND they didn't provide any great (almost none) increase in velocity for a given pressure. That did surprise me but that is what they did. And this is all with cup and core bullets; nothing "exotic".

So you found a pretty linear relationship between velocity and pressure regardless of powder burn rate, i.e.: RL 15, 4350, 4831?

I always start low and work up and yes, things advanced in a normal, progressive manner. The only "freak" thing to happen was using RE15 without the filler. Several shots were very "normal" and then I had a 80fps and 6,000+psi excursion. Now that may be acceptable in Alpins book but it ain't in mine

6000psi - that's quite a jump.

The "test" had a velocity goal (hell Will was involved )and neither 4350 or 4831 would reach that goal so, at that time, they were dropped from consideration and we went in search of the "wonder" powder. In short, I didn't work with 4350 or 4831 enough to check for variances in velocity in a longer string.

I started loading for my first double, a 470, in 2004. At the time I was counseled to use R-15 as I was told 4831 and 3031 had blown up doubles, which was true. I've since seen two doubles blown up with R-15, one with Federal factory 470 and one with R-15 reloads. I've come to the conclusion that any of these powders can cause a mishap.

I've had two doubles, a 470 and a 450/400 3 1/4 that wouldn't shoot R-15, both William Evans guns. At normal speeds, 2050-2100, the 450/400 cross fired at 50yds by 5-6 inches with R-15, with 4831 the rifles regulated beautifully.

Anybody else seen that?

In plenty of other guns R-15 and 4831 both shot well and I'd use the powder that shot the best with a preference to R-15 for the reduced recoil. The use of fillers doesn't bother me.

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
I've had two doubles, a 470 and a 450/400 3 1/4 that wouldn't shoot R-15, both William Evans guns. At normal speeds, 2050-2100, the 450/400 cross fired at 50yds by 5-6 inches with R-15, with 4831 the rifles regulated beautifully.

Anybody else seen that?

Once had a Chapuis DR in 9.3 that would not shoot IMR 4350 or R-15, shots would cross at nominal velocities. Used the IMR 4831 and regulation was perfect. Sometimes the slower powder fixes the problem but you will get an increase in felt recoil that is noticeable in some cases.

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
I started loading for my first double, a 470, in 2004. At the time I was counseled to use R-15 as I was told 4831 and 3031 had blown up doubles, which was true. I've since seen two doubles blown up with R-15, one with Federal factory 470 and one with R-15 reloads. I've come to the conclusion that any of these powders can cause a mishap.

Did any investigation reveal the causes of the blow ups ? They might have been using "XYZ" powder but
a lot of other factors come into play.


Thanks for the replies reagrding my question. Here is another one.

If you have a couple of new DR's to shoot with, which powder do you go for FIRST to load the first 5 - 10 pairs of cartridges ? - do you go for a bulkier powder or the less bulkier and use fillers ?

I have always gone for the bulkier powder first, AR 2009 or 2213 (someone else can add what these are sold as in the US).


Also, anyone know what Champlin's uses when they try to get a gun shooting ?


.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by 470Evans:
I started loading for my first double, a 470, in 2004. At the time I was counseled to use R-15 as I was told 4831 and 3031 had blown up doubles, which was true. I've since seen two doubles blown up with R-15, one with Federal factory 470 and one with R-15 reloads. I've come to the conclusion that any of these powders can cause a mishap.

Did any investigation reveal the causes of the blow ups ? They might have been using "XYZ" powder but
a lot of other factors come into play.


Thanks for the replies reagrding my question. Here is another one.

If you have a couple of new DR's to shoot with, which powder do you go for FIRST to load the first 5 - 10 pairs of cartridges ? - do you go for a bulkier powder or the less bulkier and use fillers ?

I have always gone for the bulkier powder first, AR 2009 or 2213 (someone else can add what these are sold as in the US).


Also, anyone know what Champlin's uses when they try to get a gun shooting ?


.

Never heard anything regarding the cause of the blow ups and I agree there are multiple factors that can contribute to a blow up.

I'll typically try 4831 and R-15 in a new to me double to find which one it likes best. I don't mind fillers.

Champlins will typically use 3031 for the 450 -470 class which goes against much of the "advice" out there.

I think JJ at Champlin's likes IMR 3031 only for double rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:

I am seeing around the net that the powder
AR2213 IS NOW REPLACED BY AR2213SC.
The SC version is supposed to be available in
the North America market. Have you used the
SC version in the 450/400 3&1/4 round or other
NE round? What results came of it's use please?
Thanks.

Yes, we all had to use it as they cut off the supply of AR 2213 very quickly. I used it.

I will have to look at my notes before I comment but it worked fine in all of my guns bar one (from memory).

Not sure which it is but one of your well known powders is the same as our AR series of powders as it is all made here and shipped over in bulk.
Very stable powder.

AR 2213SC is the same as H4831 SC
Check this out http://www.hodgdon.com/msds.html
lots of info about the various powders.


I do not own a DR but I am very keen on the subject. My 3rd edition of G.Wright's book shows that pressures are similar for most modern powders and cordite loads peak a bit earlier. Chapter 5 discusses R15. The pressure test at the Ktnamco factory are discussed in chapter 12.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I think JJ at Champlin's likes IMR 3031 only for double rifles.

How can one like "one" powder for all doubles considering the vast assortment of calibers they are chambered for???

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I think JJ at Champlin's likes IMR 3031 only for double rifles.

How can one like "one" powder for all doubles considering the vast assortment of calibers they are chambered for???

One might be a bit much but AR2209 and AR2213 used to cover most of
the calibres from 9.3 upwards and at a pinch, you could probably get
away with one for most. (577 and 600 might not be included in that).

In a few days I will have some very soft foam plugs. I've been cutting them my own self. Houston Foam and Plastic is making a cutting die and will deliver some plugs next week.

The plugs are very soft and highly compressible. As close to a "Tuft" of Dacron as I could get.

I have been using these type of plugs with RL-15 in my 450/400 3 inch and 404 Jeffery for several years.

Rusty

I got some of your "pillow" foam to throw into the test. Comes 1" thick and I got a punch from midway. Pretty soft. Only thing softer are the Kynamco foam which are barely there at all.

What I have coming is softer than Kynock foam.

goassmer???

No kidding, there has to be a point where "too soft" comes into the equation. Kynamco seems about the weakest that will keep the powder where it belongs under rough handling (airports), and even that takes about 50% compression.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I think JJ at Champlin's likes IMR 3031 only for double rifles.

How can one like "one" powder for all doubles considering the vast assortment of calibers they are chambered for???

That's true that he does try to load everything with 3031, I think he's a lot better gunsmith than he is a handloader. I load for .450/.400NE 3.25, .470NE, and .500NE and would rather use a powder that fills the case than a partial case of 3031 and a half a pillow's worth of dacron.

Mike, I've been using thi sstuff for yars, rounds back and forth to hunting camp, the range, no problems. I'll send ya some.

I'll pm an address. Thanks

Mike