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Finnicky, that's all I have to say. Weird range day yesterday. Looks like a decent group at first glance, trouble is except for the Hornadys (two rounds) the others were Woodleighs and all decided to go vertical. I have no idea why, except operator error...  USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | ||
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At least it didn't bitch at you on the way home. | |||
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And if you dump her, she won't get your house. No, DRS are way cheaper than women. At least the ones I have managed to piss off in my life. | |||
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Jorge, I don't know what your complaining about - there's nothing wrong with vertical. Spice up your life a bit. Besides, will the elephant/buffalo/eland/kudu/leopard/lion/etc. know the difference? NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Well, it would be an okay group if we didn't know that is a 24" diameter bullseye that you drew.......  I was in fact thinking about you yesterday. I made my first serious effort with handloads from my new bench and with the shortened pull on the stock. The good was the rifle was comfortable to shoot and it was shooting to the sights at 50 yds. The bad was my 2-shot groups were 3.5 to 4." The factory ammo group I shot a couple weeks ago was one inch. I am using a Lee factory crimp die. I was using 480 Hornady DGX and went to 96 grains for 2030 fps. The max load in the manual is 94 grains of H4831 @2100, but the factory round I checked had 97 grains and got 1950, and you said your gun liked 98. Oh, and the barrels crossed on every shot at 50 yds, even the slowest load at 1900 fps. I have more work to do with the 480 DGX for sure and several other bullets to try, but if I can't get barrels uncrossed out to at least 75 yds--prefer 100, I will be sending the rifle in for re-regulation. I have never worked so hard for such poor accuracy...... | |||
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Thank God, I thought I was the only one... My 450NE seemed to be regulating at 2100-2150 now it seems to be 2030-2050. Dropped from 96 grns of IMR 4831 to 94. | |||
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Double: I think it's a function of bullet type. The Hornadys with 98 grains shoot to perfect regulation as do the 450gr North Forks softs and solids. What puzzles me is that the rifle also shoots the factory stuff (it was regulated with) well. I suppose as the rifle wears regulation changes somewhat, but the Woodleighs have always shot more vertical so I can only conclude bullet shape/construction is the issue. Here is the NF solid at 50  The NF soft:  Hornady w 98 gr:  CEBs:  And lastly what the Woodleighs are capable of:  Bottom line is am pretty much convinced that it's operator error and technique (flinch & canting) off the bench, with maybe a little change in POI as the rifle wears? Thoughts? USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Did you check for up drafts? Jim "Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force." --Thomas Jefferson | |||
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I sense issues with the VC that are not being told here.The bore just needs a good cleaning,IMO. | |||
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Well shootadick no issues, in case you didn't notice the targets, all shot recently, especially the Northforks, CEBs and Hornadys. Say, I found a picture of your latest group shot from inside a barn:  USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Whatever my targets look like they are my real targets.I know that those are not your real targets. | |||
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Thats is the best 200 yard Group I´ve ever seen.. What are you bitching about  DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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I hate to enter into this fray. But, Jorge your killing me | |||
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And that's just his right barrel!! | |||
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you call that group --- you should see shoothataway's groups .. i mean, 8 shots in less than a sq/meter? come on... opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jorge, I have been playing around quite a bit, I wish my groups were as goo as yours. Some of them have been. Shooting these things for me has been kind of like golf just when you think you have it blamo, worst game ever. I have resolved to take it slow and start taking good notes. The three loads pictured bellow I will repeat and check for consistency. Im hoping my regulating velocity willbe closer to 2150 than 2030.  94 grns IMR4831 Woody 480grn Velocity: 2030  95 grns IMR4831 Woody 480grn Velocity:2076  96 grns IMR4831 Woody 480grn Velocity: 2100 Do you you crimp your North Fork Loads? when I crimp the softs the case bells and the bullets get loose. Im trying to work up a load for the 400 grn but they keep crossing. Also how do you guys properly neck size straight walled cases? Every time I do it something happens, like the bullets seat loose.Its driving me nuts. | |||
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Neck sizing a straight walled case is something of a futile effort, as it headspaces off the the rim. You don't gain anything by doing it. Your description of "belling" the case and a loose bullet when crimping is perhaps not the right description. If you set the crimp die too low, you will push the mouth of the case down, and obtain a long crimp, that is usually too tight, and collapses the case into an external donut style bell, which is anything but loose. Normally, it won't chamber. The normal description, for belling and expanding the case mouth to be loose, would be with a two step expander die like a Lyman M die. IE, on my 450/400,which is 410, to load cast bullets, I size the bullets to .409 on the nose, .412 on the body, and use a .409/.410 two step ezpander in the die. The crimp ring in that die, is .413. The normal expander that comes with the Hornady FLS die, is .407, for the .410 jacketed bullet. I set the crimp, with a bare trimmed, belled & expanded case, no bullet, by screwing the die down til I feel contact on the crimp ring, put a bullet in, then screw it down til the crimp starts to curl into the crimp groove, and stop there. Too much further than that, and it starts to push the brass down into itself, with the bullet in it. Your description is a little strange, in what is happening there. I'm inclined to not even bother crimping for a jacketed bullet in a double rifle or a singleshot. | |||
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I agree.I wonder how much the case deformation caused by a slightly heavy crimp affects accuracy too? | |||
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Double: I crimp all my loads including the NFs. I also use H-4831 instead of IMR, but I suspect that should not make much of a difference. As I've said previously, I've come to the conclusion that bullet TYPE (shape, manufacture) is as important as velocity. When it comes to belling the cases, I just do enough to get the bullets to get a start, but that seems only critical with North Forks and the 450gr CEBs (they are 458 v 457 for the 480s). With the Woodleighs and Hornadys, belling is not required and again, all are crimped. jorge PS: your crimoing issues also reminded me of another problem that Michael 458 helped me out with. It appears Hornady made some dies that were not true to size and as result, bullets tended to be quite loose when seated. I sent my die to Hornady at it was indeed faulty and they replaced it with no problems since. Again with Hornadys, Woodleighs or the 480 CEBs belling is not required. j USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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The Lee factory crimp die solves this the romp issue. I have one for a 458 Win and I found a nut and a washer to use as a spacer. | |||
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Very subtle things happen with bullets, aye.  Example in my Merkel 470 NE, the only thing that changed was the bullet make and C.O.L., same weight bullets, same 109.0 grains of H4831 SC with GM215M primer, no filler, BELL brass, crimped loads, attempting to make effective case capacity same for both loads: Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer Solid bullet length = 1.325" seated shaft length of bullet = 0.687" C.O.L. = 3.883"  GSC FN Solid bullet length = 1.393" seated shaft length of bullet = 0.690" C.O.L. = 3.962"  The GSC bullet traveled slower, understandable for low barrel resistance produced less pressure, should have crossed less than the TBSH did. Could the barrel time have been less for it than the slightly faster TBSH? No way, Jose! Or is something else going on here ... Just me and iron sights? Well at least it shows that I put one shot from each barrel through the same hole at 50 yards with the TBSH solid and the Merkel. Compensating errors might have prevented that with the GSC FN.  Maybe I should uncross it by slowing that load down a wee bit. A couple of grains less powder, eh? Slower is what some doubles, and most broads, require. | |||
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Equally unpredictable and finicky, but double rifles are a whole lot cheaper in the long run. They are an appreciating asset, while women are generally a depreciating asset. | |||
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OK Rip et, al, more range results for analysis and sometimes like RIP says, slower is better: 95.5gr H4831 WL softs:  100gr WL softs:  And finally 95.5WL solids back to vertical. Jut for the record, my best loads have been with 100gr for the softs and 99 for the solids with the Woodleighs. and 100 and 98 for the North Fork softs and solids respectively (and you guys have seen those targets before).  More this weekend, a final faceoff between the 100gr and 95.5gr.  USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Yeah I know I have an "issue" with OCD, but I figure some of you also have the same affliction. Went to the range today and I added a finer aim point as well as taking two shots as fast as I could then taking my time for the second set. Pretty interesting results and again bolstering my theory that doubles have a mind of their own. Precision and REALLY paying attention to rifle canting makes a difference. Still, all shots well under 2" and some even .5" at 35 yards: 480 Woodleigh softs (slow fire 2140):  480 Woodleigh solids 2130(slow fire)  480WL softs (rapid fire):  450CEB Solids (slow fire right group 2180)  480WL softs with less powder 2080. note, R1 & R2 on top is the slow fire group, R1 off target and bullseye hit is the rapid fire:  North Forks(same vel as the CEB, around 2180 and hnd loaded Hornadys, 2150 still show slightly more consistency accuracy-wise, but it's a great feeling to know what a properly regulated QUALITY rifle is capable of. And I'm probably around 500 round mark. jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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At the recommendation of Admiral Dave, I tried some 450gr Barnes TSXs. Two in the same hole boys...99gr H-4831. Chrono was not with me but I will check that this weekend. I'm guessing in the 2180 range:  USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Jorge, You might want to go to a faster powder with the CEBs because of case capacity. 100 grs of IMR4831 is proably all you are going to get in the case with them. Remember your pressures will be lower with CEBs because of bearing surface and weight being lower. You are still right is right and left is left with these so bump it up a little more. I think you will fine as good or better accuracy with CEBs as you get closer to the velocity that regulates with them. You will also get much better performance on game with them. Looks like your gun is a keeper with any bullet you choose. Sam | |||
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Sam: I've gone as high as 101grof H-4831 with the CEB 480gr solids and that is about the limit. The non-cons are 450 so they do shoot faster (and tighter) and I've posted some very nice 1" groups with them. That said the most consistently accurate loads have been the Hornadys (what the rifle was regulated with) and the North Forks, especially the solids. Still, ALL of them are under 2" at 50. Can't ask for much more than that! USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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With groups between 1"-2" I'd say it's time to go from the bench to the bush! From a double rifle standpoint, I've found that once I get groups within 1"-2" at 100 yards using express sights, I am done with the "paper work". I head to the field. Too many variables to impact reducing the group and most would be attributed to me. Safari James USMC DRSS | |||
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Fine shooting! Buffalo beware. Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | |||
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And both from the same barrel, not crossed. That has got to be the sweet spot load. Anything else you can blame on the nut behind the trigger, and not the rifle and load. | |||
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Guys, I decided to up the load by one grain to 100 and got crossover. The group above now that I think of it, I did not look for X over but I'm not certain it wasn't. going to back it down to 96 and work it up to 99 and see what happens. Again since they are 450gr and not 480s, higher velocites are expected with the same charge so maybe backing it down will give me the sweet spot. It's nice to have a double that so far has accurately digested just about every bullet brand out there. J USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Impressive results! Are the 4831 loads all witout fillers? | |||
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Yep, H-4831, no filler needed from as little as 93gr. Great powder for the 450 and not temp sensitive. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Jorge the www.vintagers. org is in late September in NY at Beretta shooting grounds. www.vintagers.org come up and compete with us. Bring double rifle single shot rifle, and side by side shotgun also and even a drilling if you have one. Mike | |||
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Thanks very much for the invite Mike, unfortunately, I don't have the leave. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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More on the TSX men, once again validating bullet type/construction also affects regulation. With other bullets, CEBs, North Forks, Woodleighs, etc, I've had no problem with crossover unless velocities were in excess of 2200, but take a look at mildly loaded 450gr TSXs:   USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Pretty work Jorge Deo Vindice, Don Sons of Confederate Veterans Black Horse Camp #780 | |||
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More for you guys, did more testing with the TSX 450gr and the Woodleighs, reduced my standard WL charge by one grain to 99 and it looks like the TSXs like 96gr. At least empirically, bullet shape does have an influence:   USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Jorge, I appreciate the info sharing from this, your thread; I'm considering a 450 NE SxS.  D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles CONTINUING TO ADD TO THE 450 NE DATABASE
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