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Back in February of this year, we discussed the interest level in a "basic" double rifle from HEYM. http://forums.accuratereloadin...804/m/8091094171/p/1 Given the positive response, we have decided to go forward with a limited run of HEYM "Jaeger" double rifles. (Only 10 will be made.) Here are the proposed specifications: > 450 NE 3.25" > 26" Barrels > Extractors > Fixed (non-articulated) front trigger > Intercepting Sears (safety is one shortcut that we're not prepared to compromise) > Receiver and small parts will be black (not silver like "PH" and "Safari" grades) > 14.75" LOP over 1/2" pad. Cut to your desired LOP. > One standing and one folding rear leaves > 2mm brass front bead > Bolstered frame (same as current "PH" & "Safari") > Non-Automatic Safety > Hand checkered > Rib Cut for red-dot mount (Docter or Trijicon RMR) > Shoe-lump barrels "Jaeger" will be engraved on the top rib, and the serial numbers will all begin with Jaeger, i.e.: Jaeger 01, Jaeger 02, etc... Of course the "Jaeger" will receive the same attention to detail in fit and finish, will carry the HEYM accuracy guarantee, and comes with a life-time warranty. The final two questions for the group are: 1) do you want a right-hand stock with cheekpiece or a straight stock with no cheekpiece? 2) "Jaeger" was a proposed name that came up in the Feb discussion, or would you prefer something more "African" like Mbogo or Nyati? | ||
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Is number one available? When can I take delivery? Rt handed and cheek piece for me. I like "nyati" better than "jaeger", but that's just me. Will J. Parks, III | |||
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Yes, it is.
January 2013. | |||
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What are they going to cost again? And are they all already spoken for? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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INTERESTED...... CUANTOS DINEROS? | |||
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Wouldn't the average age of the eyes of the likely buyers argue for a white bead? NRA Endowment Member DRSS | |||
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With intercepting sears, I would be happy to look at one. Definitely right hand with cheek pieve. I actually prefer the black to the coin finish. I wish it was case hardned. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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500 NE 3" 24" barrels With the above options, I'd be in, but caliber and bbl. length are deal breakers for me. 1)Right hand w/cheekpiece, please. 2)You can call it whatever you like, as long as the price point is right. I would agree that a white bead front sight makes a helluva lot more sense (on all DRs) given the degeneration of most eyes over 40+ years of age. And the average DR buyers age is? Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Cost: The "Jaeger" target price is 13,000, and that includes intercepting sears. The price could be less without them, but we don't want to sacrifice safety to cut a little cost. Front Bead: 2mm brass is standard on our rifles 2.5 brass is available also The white plastic beads from Recknagel are 4mm and not as durable as the brass IMO. If you want a larger bead, then the 2.5mm brass is my recommendation, but they will all be the same from the factory Red-Dot sights: The "Jaeger" will also come with the 1/4 rib machined to accept our red-dot mounts for either the Docter or Trijicon RMR. Different Calibers: Not possible at this price. Only by grouping 10 rifles into a production unit can we maintain the same quality, fit, finish, etc... To change calibers or barrel lengths would disrupt the efficiency. The "PH" grade can be had with extractors and your choice of barrel lengths, stocked to fit, etc... for 15K. Case Colors: Not possible at this price. Serial Numbers: As of 7:00 this morning, I have not promised any serial numbers, but I have received about 20 PMs and Emails on the "Jaeger"... I don't think they will last very long. Barrels: We have not cut any corners here by mono-blocking the barrels. The "Jaeger" will have the same shoe-lump barrels as all of our more expensive rifles. | |||
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Chris: Fantastic idea. I am betting that these will sell out fast. Mac, here is your chance at a Heym!  Chris, If I hadn't just bought a Chapuis, I would be on this like a buzzard on a gut wagon!  Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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I believe your price point is too high for this rifle. With only an additional two thousand dollars a custom fitted PH could be had. Doesn't make sense to me. Seems like a price point around $10,500-$11,500 would make a lot more sense. That's just my opinion, but I won't be buying one in any event.  Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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LionHunter - you are exactly right. This is a $10,000 rifle... with $3,000 intercepting sears. Again, we're not willing to let those go to save a few bucks. | |||
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I understand how intercepting/safety sears work and $3k seems like a lot for them. To me only. I am sure others will disagree. | |||
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Chris - I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to figure out the marketing strategy, which seems to me to have gone drastically wrong here. 1) As I understand it, the original theory was to produce a no frills Heym DR "for the masses" intended to compete with the entry level DRs of other manufacturers, such as Searcy and others. This would mandate a price point just over $10,000 up to perhaps $11,500. 2) Heym already has the ability to produce intercepting sear safeties, as they are standard on all Heym DRs currently in production, and that's a good thing. So, what I fail to understand, is why it should cost $3,000 to include the intercepting sear safety on what is, by your own admission, a $10,000 DR. And again, I make the point that charging $13,000 for this DR is simply silly, when for another $2,000 a custom fitted extractor DR can be purchased - the well respected Heym PH model. What knowledgeable DR buyer would opt for the $13,000 choice? Who is Heyms intended client for this DR? Honestly, I don't understand the strategy here and I do not see it being successful. That is not to say you won't sell 10 of them, but I wouldn't plan on the next 50, or even another 10. Put that intercepting sear safety into the $10,000 DR and charge $11,500 for it and then you will have a DR that will sell like hotcakes! Produce a limited run of 20 rifles each year, in a different DG caliber each year, and you'll sell them all, every year, while broadening the Heym client base. And you know a number of those who buy the entry level DR will upgrade to a higher grade Heym at some later date. You can put me down now for ...01 in the year they produce this $11,500 DR in a 500 NE with 24" bbls. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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For an African DG rifle a name like "HATARI" sounds better to me than the German name for hunter. The blackened action is a good idea to give it "finished" look. Just a thought. | |||
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Chris: For what it's worth, I don't agree with LionHunter. I have handled and shot a Heym. The workmanship was top rate. LionHunter, ask yourself this question. If you were headed off into the African bush after a big tusker with no PH, all by yourself, no backup, which double would you want in your hands. I will tell you that I am kind of a Chapuis guy. Love those French guns. However, I am a client hunter. On my own, with no PH, I would want to be carrying my Krieghoff or a Heym. I think a no frills Heym at $13,000 is just what the doctor ordered. Chris says it is a $10,000 gun with $3000 worth of intercepting sears. I think it is a $16,500 gun without the ejectors and frankly, I prefer and extractor gun anyway. I am gun poor at the moment and I don't really want a 450 NE but if this offer comes around again, I will have to take a very hard look. Chris, what will be the quality of the wood? Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Great points made by Lionhunter! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Dave Bush, As usual, you don't have a clue and apparently are unable to understand my point, so I'll repeat it for the second time in this thread. Why would anyone pay $13,000 for a rifle as described by Chris, when for $2,000 more you could get a HEYM PH? Well, apparently you would, because you believe it's a $16,500 gun. WTF??? I believe I have more extensive safari experience, in more african countries, and more DG experience than you may ever acquire, so stop with the patronizing blather, please. Take your little French, girlie, rat guns and your two large bores of questionable heritage and find some other way to amuse yourself. And just so there's no question about where I stand, I don't like you, Dave, and I don't like what you have to say in other threads, particularly the Terminal Bullet Performance thread where you have attacked others. I've declined to play with you but when you attack me with your passive-aggresive posting as you've done here, then I'm all in. Congratulations, you've made my IGNORE list, so don't bother posting a reply, as I won't be seeing it. Oh, and big surprise, you won't be buying one of these now, but just wait until next time! Yeah, right. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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I thought the PH was now $17k. I currently have the PH and love it! However if I were looking for a double in the $10k to $11k price point it would be very difficult not to splurge the additional $2k and get the "Nyati"(I prefer this name for the rifle... Marketed to African Buff Hunters. The Heym name signifies its German roots and superb quality). Not sure Heym will ultimately add this to their line up on a regular basis, I guess the market will determine that, but if I were a competitor in or near that price range I would be very worried. Just my opinion for what it's worth... Usually not much! | |||
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Chris quotes the PH model with extractors for 15k. The Standard PH model has ejectors and is 17k...Either way the PH model is for me  | |||
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Great idea; should look fantastic! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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Ditto for me Jines. And, how did it go with shumba? Will J. Parks, III | |||
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LionHunter - Fortunately, there are other opinions and budgets in the market. The "Jaeger" was intended to be a limited run of high-quality, lower-cost HEYM doubles. 10-11K was not a stated target. I think you have assumed that based on other maker's prices. If you would like to discuss marketing strategy or debate the value of a particular HEYM rifle or just have new model ideas, please give me a call. I would be glad to discuss them, and it will be more effecient for you and I cover it over the phone than it will be to type it all out here. | |||
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WOW. Okay then...... LionHunter, I did not mean to offend you in any way but I obviously did and for that I am sorry. Good luck and good hunting. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Chris: Don't worry about LionHunter. He probably doesn't have much experience with a Heym double or perhaps doubles in general. Chris, what will the wood be like on these guns? Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Chris, Don't mis-understand, I think Heym makes a great DR. As to the price point I mentioned, I actually got it from your original post on this topic last February where you cited the figure $11,500, not the $13,000 now quoted. As you know, there are posters on AR who have never hunted africa and some of those who have, have never hunted DG. I'm sorry the controversy was started and perhaps distracted from the purpose of this thread, but at my age, I simply will not tolerate rudeness, especially from inexperienced wannabees. That does not negate the seriousness of my inquiry, which I hope you will address in this public forum. BTW, you and I have spoken directly over the years and I've always found you to be forthright and helpful. In fact, I looked for you at the HEYM booth at SCI this past January, but you had stepped out to get some lunch when I stopped in and I was unable to get back at a later time. I'll make a point to look you up at either DSC or SCI this coming January. In any event, I wish you well if HEYM decides to go ahead with this project, but I do hope you broach my observations/questions with HEYM management, as I honestly believe if they proceed as indicated they will be making a serious marketing blunder. It seems from the posts in this thread that most agree with my basic premise that the PH would be the way to go at the stated price point. Cheers,  Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Boy, this guy just won't give up. Here is what I posted to him: "LionHunter, ask yourself this question. If you were headed off into the African bush after a big tusker with no PH, all by yourself, no backup, which double would you want in your hands. I will tell you that I am kind of a Chapuis guy. Love those French guns. However, I am a client hunter. On my own, with no PH, I would want to be carrying my Krieghoff or a Heym. I think a no frills Heym at $13,000 is just what the doctor ordered. Chris says it is a $10,000 gun with $3000 worth of intercepting sears. I think it is a $16,500 gun without the ejectors and frankly, I prefer and extractor gun anyway." Now I readily confess to being a guy who loves double rifles and a, what was it "inexperienced wannabee" but I don't think I was rude. Then, he puts me on IGNORE so I can't respond. What a coward!  Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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 It's always so so much fun when a new poster with no location arrives on the scene. You sound like a reincarnation of adrook? Another addition on my IGNORE list. Semper Fi Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Pardon me Gentlemen, I really have no business here on this particular thread, I have no expertise in the exact discussion going on. However I have to make note of the comment made above, "Double Rifle Experience". Brings something to mind. I once many moons ago joined a conversation that involved bullets and terminal performance, in a double rifle thread. Some smart ass M***Fu** made that same, or similar comment to me. On that particular DAY, I had never even shot a double rifle, and as far as my experience in that arena it was nil. However, the VERY NEXT DAY, and I do mean the Next Day, I had experience with 1/2 dozen different double rifles including 500 Nitro and 577 Nitro-_THE NEXT DAY! Now, the chap that made the comment ended up being a "THIEF-CON MAN" and took off with hard earned money from several members of this forum! To never produce anything in return for said money. While I still do not own a double rifle, that has little to do with my experience in related areas, pertinent to and involving big bores, and double rifles, which for the most part are big bores. I see no relevance in that statement. And on top of that, I like that damned photo! I am the one that put the "antique" in it, and I am the one who posted it as well, Not Mike, but did ask his permission to do so. I really like this one! This is going to be funny!
Well, I can answer that--You Have to Have an Elephant to begin with! It's made of elephant leather!  Please pardon my intrusion into a very serious conversation, but I could not help myself! Hoping that now all the "Pertinent" questions have been addressed you boys can continue a meaningful conversation about the subject at hand! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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This is how I understand the pricing, PH model with ejectors: $17,000. PH model without ejectors: $15,000 Jaeger Model: $13,000. No ejectors, fewer bells and whistles The Jaeger seems to be a good deal if the 450 NE is your caliber. Not having the articulating front trigger should not be an issue on the 450. Nyati or Hatari sounds better to me. | |||
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Guys: Please don't let the little spat that I had with LionHunter ruin the thread. I offended him somehow and I didn't mean to. I tried to apologize, even send him a PM but he has me on IGNORE. That's okay. Even my wife puts me on IGNORE sometimes. Back to the thread at hand, I think Mike70560 has nailed it. Chris is a good guy. Heym makes a fine rifle and this just gives us another price point in the market. I say hats off to Chris for being interested and responsive to his customers and Heym for being willing to take a chance. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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The 450 Bore Nitro Express is my favorite calibre for a double. Also because there are so many other less than 480/500gr bullets, using the 75% rule, and Nitro for Black loads, you can very easily and cheaply have several good bullets in the 300 to 405 grain range for hunting deer/pigs and even plains game with your 450. They have less recoil, a LOT less recoil in the case of the Nitro for Black style loads, and are fun to shoot. I kinda like the name Mobogo. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Chris: PM sent. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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I think that LionHunter is not "getting" that there are guys really wanting a Heym D/R, and they just earn a certain amount of money per year, and they are scrimping and saving, and now they have an option that's two-thousand dollars less, AND THAT IS A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY FOR SOME GUYS!. (Maybe not to guys who have been able to pay for 5 or 10 or more African D/G hunting trips, but to a guy who hopes to do ONE Cape Buff hunt in his life, then go back to his local forest for his annual deer hunting two grand could make or break his dream.) D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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It seems to me that you are not "getting" that LionHunter is actually trying to help the type of fellow you are describing. For the fellow in the financial position you are describing, one of the less expensive DR's would probably be a better choice. Rifles such as the Merkel, Kreighoff, Chapuis, etc would help that guy afford his hunt quicker or possibly allow him to take a few extra species while still doing his dream hunt with a quality DR. Mike is pointing out that at $13,000, the rifle really isn't competing with the the entry level guns. A good used Merkel or K-Gun can be had for around $7,500. That's $5,500 less than this basic Heym. Of course, talking new to new comparisons, the new entry level Heym is about $2,500 higher. Again, in your example, that $2,500 could provide for a bit larger safari, or a good head start on his next as there really is no such thing as just one! At $13,000, it really will come down to how much value one puts on intercepting sears and / or the Heym name. I'm not saying in any way shape or form that the entry level Heym Chris is introducing isn't a great gun and worth every penny. But, for roughly the same money, you can get a pretty nice VC with CCH, some engraving, ejectors, and a choice of calibers and barrel lengths, built to your personal measurements. The Heym at this price is limited to the 450NE 3.25" and 26" Barrels, no CCH, extractors, a set LOP, but it has the intercepting sears. I understand Mike's point that at $13K, the Heym is really competing with a VC that has more options and more embellishments and the offsetting feature is the intercepting sears. It really isn't competing with the Merkel, K-Gun, and the like at that price point. | |||
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As usual Todd, I think you nailed it - great analysis of the topic. I also regret the few folks on this thread who could not articulately argue facts and resorted to personal attacks unrelated to the topic. Very sad. Gee, this sort of sounds like our Presidential race. Mangwana | |||
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Todd: The reason that I thought this was a good deal is twofold. First, I do indeed put great value on the Heym name. Second, I am one of those guys who prefers extractors over ejectors. It's just a matter of personal preference but I have two extractor guns and two ejectors guns and I just prefer the former. Call me crazy. Butch's Classic is now $20,000. The VC would be a better choice and if you could get a VC with extractors for a couple of grand less, that would indeed be a better deal. Just my two cents. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Again, my post was not to put down the new Heym. Not at all. I was just trying to put the different rifle's features into a side by side comparison. A couple of items. I also like extractors but must admit that the ejector feature is growing on me, especially with the heavier gun such as the 577NE. A gun of that size and weight begins to be cumbersome when flipping the barrels Northward!! In addition, when I ordered my 500 VC, I pressed Ken pretty hard about building it with extractors instead of ejectors. The price difference was surprisingly small. No where near $2,000. Not even a 1/4 of that. In fact, the quote was $325 less with extractors instead of ejectors. Yep, some makers charge $2K for ejectors, but not VC. Makes me wonder about those $3K and $4K intercepting sears!! | |||
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For those who may not know, you can get intercepting sears on V-C doubles. I have on my 600NE. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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