Ok I have read a few books. I subscribe to the DG journal. Great magazine BTW. But I have had a hard time finding a good explanation of a few features on double guns.
1. Assisted opening??? What is it and why.
Are the guns that hard to open to cock the action.
2. Selectable ejectors as opposed to extractors?
I understand the need for ejectors and a cleared breach when hunting DG but why selectable?
Thank Kerry

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Ok I have read a few books. I subscribe to the DG journal. Great magazine BTW. But I have had a hard time finding a good explanation of a few features on double guns.
1. Assisted opening??? What is it and why.
Are the guns that hard to open to cock the action.
2. Selectable ejectors as opposed to extractors?
I understand the need for ejectors and a cleared breach when hunting DG but why selectable?
Thank Kerry

hi kerry

assisted opening is a action construction where the mainspring helps with opening the gun as soon as the top lever is pushed, and yes it makes them a bit harder to close, but most people i know dont even notice it after some practise with the gun.

selectable ejectors is a feature where you can chose wether or not you want the ejectors to work as ejectors or just as extractors, this is usualy a small lever or knob on the front end.
i have heard that when hunting elephants they can sometimes pinpoint you, by the sound of the cases hitting the ground when using ejectors, wether this is true or not i cant say, as i have never been among them, hopefully next year i will be abel to remedy this fault in my upbringing

i hope this helps

best regards

peter

Peter, what is the status of your doubles?
Peter.

peter

it's going well, we have a few in the works, B-class and a 3RB best gun, i will post pictures as soon as they are ready to ship out.

how is the family ?

best

peter

Thanks That's what i was looking for.
As for the Elephant being able to pin you buy the sound of the shells hitting the ground. That would not surprise me in a continent filled with predators. Those animals must learn fast or become trophies as the less intelligent ones were killed of years ago

quote:

Originally posted by kcstott:
Ok I have read a few books. I subscribe to the DG journal. Great magazine BTW. But I have had a hard time finding a good explanation of a few features on double guns.

This is the place to ask questions on double rifles!

quote:

1. Assisted opening??? What is it and why.
Are the guns that hard to open to cock the action.

assisted opening is a spring loaded barrel set which snapes the action open very quickly when the top lever is moved to the side. This feature is most often offered on SHOTGUNS not double rifles, and is most times a feature in conjunction with selective ejectors. This is a feature that is used most often on driven bird shoots.

quote:

2. Selectable ejectors as opposed to extractors?
I understand the need for ejectors and a cleared breach when hunting DG but why selectable?
Thank Kerry

Im not sure if you are asking about "SELECTIVE" EJECTORS or "SELECTABLE" ejectors!

Since you wrote "SELECTABLE" that is what I will answer first.
SELECTABLE ejectors are selective ejectore that can be disingaged by moveing a button on the forearm that disingages the ejector hammer from being cocked, so that the ejectors work like extractors. The Heym double rifles used to have this option, but I'm not sure if they still do. If it works right it is an excellent feature.

On the other hand, if you are asking about 'SELECTIVE" ejectors then that is a feature that only ejects the barrel that has been fired, and only rising the un-fired cartride up as an "EXTRACTOR" does!

The thing about selective ejectors when shooting elephant is the empty case being ejected tend to hit each other, and make a vry matalic sound of "PINGING". This only happens after both barrels have been fired, so most likely the target ele is either down or turned. He is not the one you are worried about marking your position. In heavy bush the old bulls are usually acompanied by a couple of Askari younger bulls, and those are what the sound is avoided for. Cows run together and are agressive as hell, and you my be standing very close to an unseen caw who may zero in on you while your rifle is open. So extractors are best in tight bush for ele or herd sittuation on buffalo.

KCstott, there is only one question that is stupid, and that is the one you don't know the answer to, and fail to ask!

Hope any of this helps!

There was a recent thread about a Purdey video in which they mentioned the assisted opening feature. My question (which went unanswered) was that presumably the Purdey patent has expired so why wasn't anyone else making doubles (either shotguns or rifles) with this feature. Anyone know the answer? It seems to me that this would be quite valuable on a double rifle. (I don't go on too many driven game shoots!)
Peter.

quote:

how is the family ?

Peterdk, thank you for remembering! They are hanging in there. Lots of ups and downs!
Peter.

i have heard that when hunting elephants they can sometimes pinpoint you, by the sound of the cases hitting the ground when using ejectors, wether this is true or not i cant say, as i have never been among them, hopefully next year i will be abel to remedy this fault in my upbringing


Not being facetious, but dosent the ejector only eject a fired round and wouldn't you have had to have fired the round first before it would eject, otherwise would it not just extract. Surely the El would pinpoint you more easily by the sound of the shot being fired,(the live ones, that is) rather than the sound of the ejector or cartridge case hitting the ground. If you were in El teritory would you not imediatly reload and would the sound of the rounds "thunking" into the chamber be just as loud. And bolt rifle shooters operating the bolt would be noisier still. Serious question, not a flame.

I am sure they would locate me by the sound of my heartbeating with the thrill of the experience.

Von Gruff.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
There was a recent thread about a Purdey video in which they mentioned the assisted opening feature. My question (which went unanswered) was that presumably the Purdey patent has expired so why wasn't anyone else making doubles (either shotguns or rifles) with this feature. Anyone know the answer? It seems to me that this would be quite valuable on a double rifle. (I don't go on too many driven game shoots!)
Peter.

Holland & Holland (and others) do offer self-opening or assisted-opening guns.

The mechanism that H&H use to accomplish the opening operation involves a separate coil spring on the underside of the barrels, under the fore end, and is different than Purdey's mainspring operated system.

quote:

Originally posted by Von Gruff:
i have heard that when hunting elephants they can sometimes pinpoint you, by the sound of the cases hitting the ground when using ejectors, wether this is true or not i cant say, as i have never been among them, hopefully next year i will be abel to remedy this fault in my upbringing


Not being facetious, but dosent the ejector only eject a fired round and wouldn't you have had to have fired the round first before it would eject, otherwise would it not just extract. Surely the El would pinpoint you more easily by the sound of the shot being fired,(the live ones, that is) rather than the sound of the ejector or cartridge case hitting the ground. If you were in El teritory would you not imediatly reload and would the sound of the rounds "thunking" into the chamber be just as loud. And bolt rifle shooters operating the bolt would be noisier still. Serious question, not a flame.

I am sure they would locate me by the sound of my heartbeating with the thrill of the experience.

Von Gruff.

Picking the exact location of a shot is actually quite hard - partly because the blast
goes in all directions.

However the metallic "ping" of the metal cases is not drowned out by other noises.

I have had buffalo here in Aus look at me when the cases went "ping".
(They were milling around not knowing which was to go).

Thanks Mr! I assume that none of the other manufacturers offer the assisted opening eg. Merkel, Searcy etc. My K-gun does not have it. I still think it would be a plus in a double rifle.
Wonder if the new Rigbys would offer it as an option?
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Von Gruff:
i have heard that when hunting elephants they can sometimes pinpoint you, by the sound of the cases hitting the ground when using ejectors, wether this is true or not i cant say, as i have never been among them, hopefully next year i will be abel to remedy this fault in my upbringing


Not being facetious, but dosent the ejector only eject a fired round and wouldn't you have had to have fired the round first before it would eject, otherwise would it not just extract. Surely the El would pinpoint you more easily by the sound of the shot being fired,(the live ones, that is) rather than the sound of the ejector or cartridge case hitting the ground. If you were in El teritory would you not imediatly reload and would the sound of the rounds "thunking" into the chamber be just as loud. And bolt rifle shooters operating the bolt would be noisier still. Serious question, not a flame.

I am sure they would locate me by the sound of my heartbeating with the thrill of the experience.

Von Gruff.

Picking the exact location of a shot is actually quite hard - partly because the blast
goes in all directions.

However the metallic "ping" of the metal cases is not drowned out by other noises.

I have had buffalo here in Aus look at me when the cases went "ping".
(They were milling around not knowing which was to go).

Yes, the reverberations make pinpointing the source of the shot difficult. I have seen this from elephants, but also from other game from whitetail deer to fox to geese.

The metalic "PING!!!", which is the brass ringing from being ejected (and not from the cases hitting each other or the ground - it happens when only one of the barrels is fired and when the cases land on soft ground too) is incredibly loud in the post blast silence and also entirely out of place. (I think the report of a rifle startles the game, but isn't too unlike thunder)

The surviving elephants can hone in on the noise. I've had to do some running to escape a herd that came looking for us when I ejected the rounds I used to kill one of the eles. After the "BOOM - BOOM" and then the sound of the ele dropping, there was total silence until the ejectors sounded their homing beacon. Then the matriarch went nuts and headed in our direction looking for us. We bolted through heavy brush to escape shooting more elephants or getting squashed.

Loading rounds, even noisily, is nowhere as loud as the "PING" of the ejected brass, and can be done quietly if desired. To close a rifle quietly, just hold the lever open and close the barrels quietly, then release the lever and give it a push to ensure it has fully traveled.

I'm still a fan of ejectors though. Better the faster relaod than a slower one. I would rather have to shoot another ele than to get caught reloading.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Thanks Mr! I assume that none of the other manufacturers offer the assisted opening eg. Merkel, Searcy etc. My K-gun does not have it. I still think it would be a plus in a double rifle.
Wonder if the new Rigbys would offer it as an option?
Peter.

Peter

we considered it, but in my personal oppinion i fail to see the use on a double rifle where barrel weight is enough to open the rifle alone.

we will strech very far for our customers but i dont think this feature will be offered soon, but who knows if the demand is strong enough, we might make a run of actions cut for this feature.

best

peter

If I have it right assisted opening was because the super rich in England
while on the driven bird shoots would open their shotguns and hand them to
the loaders opened. The loaders would hand CLOSED {and loaded} guns to the
super rich shooters. The rich shooters cared nothing about the fact that it
was a bit harder for the gun to be closed since THEY DID NOT CLOSE THEM.
CLOSING guns was the work of the "lowly" loader, OPENING of guns was done
by GENTLEMEN...

JPK

I hadn't thought of the fact that the sound of gunfire might sound like thunder.

A very good point.

But that ping is definately pin-pointable by game, no two ways about it.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
If I have it right assisted opening was because the super rich in England
while on the driven bird shoots would open their shotguns and hand them to
the loaders opened. The loaders would hand CLOSED {and loaded} guns to the
super rich shooters. The rich shooters cared nothing about the fact that it
was a bit harder for the gun to be closed since THEY DID NOT CLOSE THEM.
CLOSING guns was the work of the "lowly" loader, OPENING of guns was done
by GENTLEMAN...

This is true. A funny story: I was once in the H&H shop and mentioned in passing that the self openers on a pair of guns made them harder to close. Response by salesman, "Our customers do not close their own guns..."

That was worth a good belly chuckle from me.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
JPK

I hadn't thought of the fact that the sound of gunfire might sound like thunder.

A very good point.

But that ping is definately pin-pointable by game, no two ways about it.

Yes, that super load in the moment "PING" is definitely pin-pointable by game, no doubt about it.

JPK

Big Five Jack and JPK are correct in their posts.

My No1 elephant gun is an extractor double.

quote:

My No1 elephant gun is an extractor double.

Mine's a bolt rifle.

"Chick-chack-chock-chick-BANG!"

I have been pinpointed several times. I have found that the key is the "BANG" part!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK
This is true. A funny story: I was once in the H&H shop and mentioned in passing that the self openers on a pair of guns made them harder to close. Response by salesman, "Our customers do not close their own guns..."

That was worth a good belly chuckle from me.

JPK

Well I think I would have hit the ground rolling

But now I wanna know how can I get a champagne rifle on a beer budget.
Saving my pennies

I think I just found my answer
the SAB92SF is looking like a very good solution to my problem
http://www.ussginc.com/

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

quote:

My No1 elephant gun is an extractor double.

Mine's a bolt rifle.

"Chick-chack-chock-chick-BANG!"

I have been pinpointed several times. I have found that the key is the "BANG" part!

Mrlexma, you duh man!

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
JPK

I hadn't thought of the fact that the sound of gunfire might sound like thunder.

A very good point.

But that ping is definately pin-pointable by game, no two ways about it.

500N if you have ever been close to a herd of elephant feeding off trees by breaking limb out of the top, the sound of those limbs breaking sounds like rifle shots! However you never see elephants, or other animals getting excited, and running from that sound. It is simply a sound that is an everyday affaire. The sound of shots from an unseen shooter are not a problem. A very matalic sound like the "PING" of cases being ejected, is as foreign to the bush as a train whistle.

This only happens after both barrels have been fired in most cases, so the guy you just shot in normally not a problem, but his un-seen askari is a real problem in he marks your position.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
JPK

I hadn't thought of the fact that the sound of gunfire might sound like thunder.

A very good point.

But that ping is definately pin-pointable by game, no two ways about it.

500N if you have ever been close to a herd of elephant feeding off trees by breaking limb out of the top, the sound of those limbs breaking sounds like rifle shots! However you never see elephants, or other animals getting excited, and running from that sound. It is simply a sound that is an everyday affaire. The sound of shots from an unseen shooter are not a problem. A very matalic sound like the "PING" of cases being ejected, is as foreign to the bush as a train whistle.

This only happens after both barrels have been fired in most cases, so the guy you just shot in normally not a problem, but his un-seen askari is a real problem in he marks your position.

Never had the opportunity to go to Africa and hunt elephant.

My experiences are with Mobs of Buffalo here in Australia.

Same as you, SOMETIMES the shot or shots doesn't concern them to much
- they get a lot of thunder up Northern Aust !!! but I really notice
the mob become alert and piss off once the "ping" happens !!!

So now I tend to catch them before they get thrown.

I just happened to have wandered over from one of the other forum areas and got interested in reading this thread. A rather simple idea occurs to me that I didn't see mentioned here on this subject so I thought I'd see if it "holds water" so to speak.

I use S/S and O/U shotguns a lot, which are factory equipped with ejectors. I also like to retrieve the empty cases, but I don't care to go searching for them. So, what I do is hold my hand cupped over and touching the breech on opening and it then only partially ejects so that I catch them before they go flying. It looks about like the photo above at the top of this page, except I wind up holding them in my right hand.

What may be relevant is that it also deadens the sound. When I don't do this and just let 'um fly there's a sharp metallic "click" that's audible a considerable distance depending on the weather conditions. For instance, on very hot, humid opening day dove shoots you can hear it farther than on windy, cold days.

Anyway, I know it's not nitro express brass shells and, no, I haven't tried it on a rifle. But, if someone wants to experiment, perhaps you could have both the ejectors and not so much noise..

Shack

That's exactly what I do to stop them flying off behind me and as you say, it works.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Shack

That's exactly what I do to stop them flying off behind me and as you say, it works.

I've done that for years to keep from looseing my brass in the cactus patches of West Texas, and New Mexico, while hunting muledeer, and elk with my double rifles, and you're right it works. I even do it with my bolt rifles, to save the brass.

However with a herd sittuation for Buffalo, or elephant in tight bush, sometimes speed is what is required, and a re-load is needed very quickly. Especially with Buffalo where the herd may take off in any dirrection,where the first one goes the rest will follow. Eventhough they haven't marked you, you may be in thier path of exit. with buffalo in a herd stampeed, you may be looking at 200 animals. In this case you need your rifle loaded to be ready, then step behind any available tree trunk,hopefully to let them pass, if they come your way. What I do in this is turn the rifle on it's left side, and pull it into close my belly, letting the empties hit my belly, and drop at my feet, because I have two rounds between the fore finger, and middle finger of my left hand for a re-charge of the barrels, and my right hand stays on the pistol grip, with my trigger finger very close the the trigger guard, and load with my left hand. Actually this is the same thing, with a small twist as to what Shack does. I just have always loaded with my left hand.

Im sure , however, Shack's clays, or ducks can be stopped before they maul him, even re-loading with his right hand!

With an extractor rifle I simply open, lift the barrels skyward, and let them fall to the ground, re-load ad get ready. The cases do not tend to have that matalic "PING" when just dropped to the ground from extractors. I only have ejectors on two of my double rifles, both are 9.3X74R, one a side by side, and the other an O/U. All my large rifles have extractors, and the ones smaller than the two 9.3s.

I imagine it probably would never happen, but with the extractor gun if those shells failed to drop right out when lifted skyward, I wonder what next..

It's rare but with shotguns I have seen shells stick in the chambers even with ejectors. My Model 21 did that last quail season. You can guess the reason...I really should clean it more often.

Anyway, if you were having a double built, how do you think extractors or ejectors will impact the eventual resale value?

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
I imagine it probably would never happen, but with the extractor gun if those shells failed to drop right out when lifted skyward, I wonder what next..

It's rare but with shotguns I have seen shells stick in the chambers even with ejectors. My Model 21 did that last quail season. You can guess the reason...I really should clean it more often.

Anyway, if you were having a double built, how do you think extractors or ejectors will impact the eventual resale value?

Shack shotguns often will have the empties stick in the chambers. There are two reasons for this. #1 is because shot shells are straight sided, and sometimes, but especially in damp weather the will not fall out of the chambers after the extractors pull them part way out of the chamber. The Double rifle cartridges, even the so-called straight cases, and not straight at all, but are tapered. What this means is all the extractor has to do is move the cartridge back a couple thousands, and it is no longer touching the chamber walls, and is free to simply fall out when the barrels are tilted upward. I have never had a case failed to fall out of the chambers on an extractor double rifle. The #2 reason shot shells fail to fall out is the mouth of the empty case tends to form little fingers from the creases in the un-folded crimp, and the empty being so light, it's weight cannot some times cause the shell to overcome the hold the "FINGERS" formed by the creases in the un-folded crimp. The Brass in the tapered empty NE rifle case is springy, and fits fairly loose in the chamber before firing, head spacing on the rim as they do. When it is fired, it expands out till the chamber walls stop it. Once the chamber pressure is relieved, the brass retracts back very close to its original shape, and size. And with the taper, once moved only a fraction backward, it is completely free of the chamber walls.

There was a time that brass cases did stick in the chambers often, but they were the early "COILED BRASS" cases of the early black powder cartridges, and also used for the first smokeless powders! They didn't work well at all. Then the cartridges like the early drawn brass where made too thin, and too soft, along with a very bad mistake of making a bottle necked case with a shoulder that was set back quite far, with a long straight sided neck. This combination of thin/soft brass, and the long straight-sided neck caused the case to stick to the detriment of some hunters of the bite back animals of Africa and India. The early 450/400 3 1/4" was a black powder cartridge that was used over into the smokeless powder era, without changing the shape, or thickness of the brass walls. Many times these rifle s would experience sticking cases. This is the reason the 450/400NE 3" was made of stiffer, thicker walls, and with a short neck, and the shoulder pushed forward enough that the cartridge couldn't be chambered in the older 3 1/4" chamber of the old black powder rifles. The 3" version was never offered in black powder version, and never had a sticking problem.
...............This opinion is free and worth the price you paid for it, not more!

Yes, all that's true for shotguns. I used to handload for those and know at least a little about the case characteristics. But just plain failure to keep the chambers clean can do the same thing. Another factor with my Model 21 is that it's old and may need new ejector springs anyway.

Double rifles are what I don't know much about, except for reading here and Taylor's book and elsewhere. The only one I own is a Parker 30-30 conversion and I haven't been shooting it in order to conserve a limited supply of handloaded ammo (needed for proper regulation). It's a Trojan grade extractor model, so I'll have to try your method of dropping the empties. It'll be fun to see it do that. I was actually thinking, wouldn't it have been better to build it on an ejector model rather than have to pull them out by hand. Ejectors probably would make more sense for medium game in N.A. anyway.

So now that I think about it, what you describe must in fact be THE way it is supposed to be done with extractors. I can't see taking time to pull empties out by hand when hunting dangerous game..

Of course you are correct in the clean chambers bit! That goes without saying, but the only other thing about the chambers on a double rifle absolutely no OIL should be present in the chambers. The oil exasorbotes the reverse thrust of the case when fired.

Both my 9.3 doubles are ejector rifles, and both came with auto safeties. The ejectors are still operational, but the auto safeties are now manual. At the "Hoot & Shoot" down at Houston Oct 4th I was shooting a timed 4 shot with my 9.3X74R Merkel 140-E double. I shot the 4 shots in 4 seconds flat, for a score of 36 out of a posible 40 points, and that was only fourth place. The draw back was the auto safety! My larger double rifles all have manual safeties, and so I forgot the auto safety on the little Merkel. Now that little Merkel has some noticable recoil with my loads, but people shooting larger heavier recoiling doubles beat me for the first three places. The 4 second time/score is not bad but I think I could have shaved at least one second off that time, amd maybe two, and scored better as well.

When you need four shots very quickly, the last thing you want is an auto safety on a double rifle. I've never understood why anyone would want an auto safety on a double rifle, or shot gun for that matter! It makes no more sense than haveing an auto safety on a bolt rifle that re-sets the safety every time you work the bolt, but nobody complains about be required to manually put a safety to "ON" on a bolt rifle! That extra second or two in my shooting on the range, may have cost me my life in the bush.

Im not happy with that score at all, because I can shoot two, and reload shoot two more faster than that, and still hit the target. If the first two had missed or failed to stop a lion in a charge from 50yds he would have been on me before I could have hit him again! That ain't good, but a hell of a lot better than the one and MAYBE two, I'd have gotten with a bolt rifle in the same sittuation.

............ .....................

I agree about auto safeties. They're a complete nuisance. I have only had that on one gun, a Browning S/S shotgun and it was among the reasons I sold it. It also had a non-selective single trigger so you were stuck with always one barrel and its choke first. I hear some like that model for double rifle conversions, but I don't think I would be in the market for such unless all that was completely re-worked.

The closest I've come to a "real" DB rifle was a WR 450/.400 that I looked at so many times they started joking about charging a handling fee and it became embarassing. It was very old including a worn leather sling and had "the look" like someone just came in off an elephant hunt with it. $6,000 just seemed way out of line at the time. You can imagine what I'd do if I could go back..

Mac,

So what are the newances of manual cocking on rifles like the Blasers and Krieghoffs? I understand (or at least think I do) that they are in affect acting as an automatic safety which isn't desirable, but are there other reasons agains it? I understand that a rifle not cocked can't possibly "go off" if banged, hit, dropped, ect., but is that really that big of a deal? If the inner workings of the rifle's action are properly fitted/allined that shouldn't be a problem anyway right? Just checking I haven't lost my mind or missed a major point. Thanks.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Mac,

So what are the newances of manual cocking on rifles like the Blasers and Krieghoffs?
Brett

quote:

I've never understood why anyone would want an auto safety on a double rifle, or shot gun for that matter!

For myself, I would rather have a manual safety. But for the "friend of a friend" that i happen to be hunting with, I'd rather HE have an auto safety on his shotgun!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Mac,

So what are the newances of manual cocking on rifles like the Blasers and Krieghoffs? I understand (or at least think I do) that they are in affect acting as an automatic safety which isn't desirable, but are there other reasons agains it? I understand that a rifle not cocked can't possibly "go off" if banged, hit, dropped, ect., but is that really that big of a deal? If the inner workings of the rifle's action are properly fitted/allined that shouldn't be a problem anyway right? Just checking I haven't lost my mind or missed a major point. Thanks.

Brett

I cannot speak to the blaser however I do own a Krieghoff. The cocking device seems to be safer concept. I will not argue the point that a conventional safety works on most doubles. the cocking device when in the rear position does render the gun inert.

Once slid forward it operates as most doubles. It does not take a great amount of force to push forward. As I begin to raise the rifle I slide it forward. After shooting and reloading it stays cocked and ready to fire. No need to recock the Krieghoff.

It is not a fine English double. They are however solid and accurate guns.

I really enjoyed hunting in Africa with mine.

We have pretty much beaten his cocking/safety thing to death.

I have a Krieghoff and a Blaser S2. Both have cocking safeties as does my Blaser R93. The difference is that the Krieghoff stays off safe when you break the gun to reload. The Blaser has to be "recocked" if you break the action. IMHO both of these systems are far safer than a conventional safety and are very easy to get used to. For hunting, I think the auto safety is the best system. It's easy to learn and far less likely to cause accidental injury. You do what makes sense to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
We have pretty much beaten his cocking/safety thing to death.

I have a Krieghoff and a Blaser S2. Both have cocking safeties as does my Blaser R93. The difference is that the Krieghoff stays off safe when you break the gun to reload. The Blaser has to be "recocked" if you break the action. IMHO both of these systems are far safer than a conventional safety and are very easy to get used to. For hunting, I think the auto safety is the best system. It's easy to learn and far less likely to cause accidental injury. You do what makes sense to you.

Yeah I knew enough to know I was treading on a dangerous subject. The Krieghoff sounds like a good design, but I'm not in love with the concept of automatic safe on the Blaser. Thanks for the info. Anyone else: have I missed something here?

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Mac,

So what are the newances of manual cocking on rifles like the Blasers and Krieghoffs? I understand (or at least think I do) that they are in affect acting as an automatic safety which isn't desirable, but are there other reasons agains it? I understand that a rifle not cocked can't possibly "go off" if banged, hit, dropped, ect., but is that really that big of a deal? If the inner workings of the rifle's action are properly fitted/allined that shouldn't be a problem anyway right? Just checking I haven't lost my mind or missed a major point. Thanks.

Brett

Sorry Brett, but i haven't opened this thread for a while.

I see that your question has already been answered after a fasion.

First let me make it clear my comments about auto safety were not in regard to is they are safe or not, but the fact that an auto safety, while in a fight for your life may get you hurt or killed, exactly the way it cost me a 2 second lag on the timed shoot, that same two seconds could be a real problem in a close encounter of the bite,scratch, and stomp type.

There is no question in anyone's mind, or shouldn't be that the absolute safest loaded rifle in the world is one that totally un-cocked. The only thing that come close is one that is un-loaded, and un-cocked. The system on the K-gun, and the Blaser are the safest for you companions, where a rifle being carried loaded and un-cocked.

The difference is are both the same safe DURRING a fight? Absolutely not! When game is approched with either of these rifles they are manually cocked to be ready for the confrontation. Both are equal at this point! However lets say both have to have both barrels fired, and re-load the chambers, because the first two didn't get the job done and he is still coming. When you re-charge the K-gun, and close it, it is ready to fire with a pull of the triggers, for the next two shots. With the double rifle that is equipt with an auto safety,the safety must be released, or in the case of the Blaser it must be re-cocked before you can shoot even one shot.

With the Krieghoff, or a double that is fitted with a manual safety, as soon as the rifle is closed it is ready to go POP! POP!, with the auto safety, or the Blaser's design not re-cocking the rifle, you are behind a couple of seconds that may make all the difference in the outcome of this little dance!

A person who uses a bolt rifle would never have an auto safety, and people seem to accept that he must put the rifle on "SAFE" when he is not ready to fire the rifle. My question is when the bolt being a manual safety is accepted, why the deal of scorn for the double rifle with a manual safety?

I assure you you will not find me in the bush with any dangerous member of the big five with an auto safety, or a double rifle that has to be re-cocked after the first two shots before I can get off another shot!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Mac,


A person who uses a bolt rifle would never have an auto safety, and people seem to accept that he must put the rifle on "SAFE" when he is not ready to fire the rifle. My question is when the bolt being a manual safety is accepted, why the deal of scorn for the double rifle with a manual safety?

Mac and I have gone round-and-round on this. What he says above about bolt rifles is true but there are literally tens of thousands of shotguns made with an auto safety and no one complains about them. Here is where I think Mac's reasoning if flawed. A genuine charge is a very rare thing and in the event or a real charge at close quarters there isn't going to be any reloading. You will be lucky to get off two shots let alone three of four.

Like I said, I have both a Blaser and a Krieghoff. I will tell you right now that in our litigious society, someday all rifles, including bolt rifles, will be made with the Blaser/Krieghoff system because it is indeed safer. Between the two, I have now come to prefer the Blaser's auto safety because I hunt with my son and even on a dangerous game hunt, the safety of you and yours is far more important than the remote possibility of a charge and the even more remote possibility that if there was a charge that (a) you would have a chance for a third of fourth shot and (b) that you would then forget to take off your safety. Like anything else, this is a skill that is easily acquired with a little practice.

It would be fun to do a survey of the professional hunters and see if they think and auto safety on a double is a good thing for the clients walking behind them.