Relying on a mechanical safety to prevent an accident is an accident waiting to happen.
The only thing that will protect you or someone you're with is your diligence in safe handling. Which is why I would think a manual safety is better for a safe and experienced shooter. I say safe and experienced because experience doesn't mean you're safe.
Now for teaching a person to shoot a auto safety would be fine but after time an auto safety is nothing but an annoyance and in the case of DG hunting Could get you killed even if the chances are remote

I agree that safe gun handling is a given.

You do what makes sense to you but you and I'll do what makes sense to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
there are literally tens of thousands of shotguns made with an auto safety and no one complains about them.

There's millions of shotguns with bead sights, but I don't think that justifies putting them on dangerous game doubles either. I do definitely agree with you that it's a safer approach, but safety is a relative thing. Not a statement of lack of safety for manual safeties. As you said to each his/her own. Go with what you know.

Brett

I have double rifles with both auto and manual saftys. I go back and forth with no problem.

If you don't like ether system don't buy them. I personally feel that if the safty is giving you a problem because of design then you might want to tighten up the nut behind the butplate or relace the rifle with one that suits you or modify the gun (in many cases it's easy to disconnect an auto safety). There are just to many options out there for so much debate.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:

So what are the newances of manual cocking on rifles like the Blasers and Krieghoffs?

It's actually quite simple.

In the latter half of the 19th century, the appearance of the hammerless gun sparked a heated debate about safety and was widely condemned as unsafe. This was because, since the hammers were hidden, it wasn't visually obvious if a gun was cocked or not. Consequently, in the course of development a variety of cocking indicators, vestigal hammers, etc., followed, and the hammerless gun quickly supplanted the hammergun.

Both of the designs you mentioned represent retrograde movements back to the design technology of 150 years ago, and are not modern technological improvements. Both revert to what is essentially a manually cocked hammergun. In both systems, the "kickspanner" is pushed forward to cock the hammers.

The simple difference between the two is that the Krieghoff has cocking rods - and thus, the ability to self-cock. Once the action is cocked via the kickspanner, the action functions as a conventional hammerless gun - it's recocked automatically after firing by the fall of the barrels when the gun is opened to reload, and remains cocked until fired again, or until the springs are eased by moving the kickspanner to the rear "safe" position.

The Blaser differs significantly in that it has no cocking rods at all and, thus, no ability of self-cock. The action can be cocked solely by the kickspanner. Once fired and reloaded, the action must be re-cocked manually in order to shoot again. This is NOT an auto-safety feature. It's an action with no cocking rods. Such actions are much cheaper to make, which is why it was chosen. It has nothing to do with safety.

A far more functional approach to improved double gun safety would be something like Filli. Rizzini's new intercepting sear system, but that costs money. A throwback to manual cocking is a lot cheaper, and these are price guns, simple as that.

As for either of these systems being safer than conventional double gun safety systems, I strongly disagree. I'm fairly nervous when hunting with someone using one. No safety that isn't engaged can work. Those that aren't easily, quickly, and instinctively disengaged have a tragic tendency to be disengaged when they're needed the most. I almost lost my life to a guest of a regular hunting partner who had been much frustrated by missing pheasants on the rise because of a cumbersome safety. As we approached the end of a drive and a rise was expected, he disengaged the safety, and that was that. Hunting upland game over many years in country where footing is often dicey with a group of other hunters, I've seen an number of accidental discharges for the same reason.

The conventional top-tang button safety of most of today's double guns is fast, effortless, and instinctive to disengage as the butt hits the shoulder when a fast, unexpected shot is needed. Virtually zero time is lost to disengaging it, so there's no incentive to punch it off prematurely, violating safety rules. I consider any safety system that fails that test to be unsafe by definition. Try pushing the kickspanner of the Krieghoff forward until it locks with the butt on your shoulder where it should be when the safety is disengaged, especially when you're not hunting alone. To me, these are range guns, not hunting guns.
----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
I almost lost my life to a guest of a regular hunting partner who had been much frustrated by missing pheasants on the rise because of a cumbersome safety. As we approached the end of a drive and a rise was expected, he disengaged the safety, and that was that.

Damn, Mark, holding out on us! So tell us, what was it like hunting with Dick Cheney?

I want to preface this post with a couple of notes.

First, I have only been to Africa twice and have used the double on only one trip to take an elephant and buffalo. I also own one double, a 470 K-Gun.
Second, I enjoy 400NE posts; he has more knowledge about double rifles than I will accumulate in this lifetime and is very factual in his writings.

With that being said I disagree with the statement the K-Gun is not a hunting rifle. My first trip to Africa was in Tanzania with a Zim PH. He carries a 500 NE in a Krieghoff. He liked the German rifles and particularly liked the cocking device. While PH’s are not necessarily gun experts, his life depended on that rifle, so I think I can safely say he felt it is a hunting rifle. There are several other PH’s that carry K-Guns, to a certain extent because of cost and because they are solid, dependable, and accurate.

I have no problem with the cocking device, but that came with a couple of thousand cycles of shouldering the rifle and pushing the cocking device forward. I have very large hands (not extremely strong) and maybe that helps. As I shoulder the rifle, I am pushing the safety off whether it is a No. 1, my Browning BPS, or the K-Gun. At that point the firearm is pointed downrange and I am about to shoot something. During the follow up on my buffalo, the gun was in safe. As the buffalo was spotted, I raised the rifle, pushed the safety off, and fired. This happened twice during the follow up in very close quarters, with no intervention from the PH. (Those things are tough, I had more of his lungs on the ground than it did in its body) No problem cocking the rifle and it was in excess of 100 degrees, so I was a little sweaty. Boddington wrote in one of his books he had problems with cocking a K-Gun. It was a borrowed rifle and I doubt if he had much experience with one. It is no small wonder he had a problem. They are different and do require practice.

Your comparison with the bird hunter is not uncommon. Shotgun guys scare the hell out of me, especially when the safety is in the trigger guard. They seem to know only one position and that is fire.

Like I said in another post, the K-Gun is not a fine English Double, however I do like mine. In addition, like anything that is different there will always be detractors. If you own one, learn how to shoot it, practice good common sense safety in the field; it is a fine hunting rifle. Of course, that is only my humble opinion.

This is great!

Mac doesn't like the Blaser safety/cocking device because he is afraid you will fail to cock it in a panic situation. Mark doesn't like the Blaser safety/cocking device because he is afraid you will cock it in a non panic situation.

Mike there is no point in arguing this. Your K-gun is great but you already know that.

Good luck and good hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
This is great!

Mac doesn't like the Blaser safety/cocking device because he is afraid you will fail to cock it in a panic situation. Mark doesn't like the Blaser safety/cocking device because he is afraid you will cock it in a non panic situation.

So two very experienced DR shooters with many years of experience don't like it comin' or goin'. A wise man would take pause....

Antlers, just because they say it doesn't make it true. Mark is a great guy and very knowledgable but to say that a Krieghoff is nothing more than a "range gun" is just plain ridiculous.

They don't like the Krieghoff. They hate the Blaser. They have pretty much rejected the .500/.416. Hell, I think an H&H or your Heym are great guns too but they are not the only choices. An S2 is half the cost of your Heym and I will be the first to admit that it is not the best handling rifle but I will tell you that it is a very well made gun and they shoot like they had eyes. It was Blaser that put a double in a price range that many more of us can afford. Think about this... a .500 NE for only $8,000! That's a great bargain in my book. A Krieghoff is 2/3rds the price a Heym and they are superb guns and handle very well. Like I said, you do what makes sense to you.

Dave:

Think of it this way. How many times has someone fired a 12 gauge at you from point blank and barely missed you - due to the guy struggling with getting a bad safety design disengaged quickly? Think you might reflect a bit in detail about safety design after that?

I recall an incident from a while back when a tracker was shot (may have died, I don't remember) when a client disengaged his safety before his rifle was mounted and on target. The rifle fired when the safety was disengaged. The AD would have been harmless had the safety not been disengaged until it was safe to do so. There is no need to disengage it until you're ready to put your finger on the trigger, and that, of course, isn't done until the field of fire is cleared and the gun mounted.

I've shot the K-gun a lot, and I've watched others shoot it a lot. Invariably, the kickspanner is shoved forward before the mount, because it is so difficult to do so with the gun mounted. Further, in a high stress moment when a fast shot may or may not be called for, the more cumbersome the safety, the earlier the user is likely to punch it off in recognition of the fact - thus such designs promote misuse in the field well known to be potentially deadly.

Sure, any safety can fail, and there's not a single one ever designed that can work if it isn't engaged. I vastly prefer a mechanical safety that CAN theoretically fail, but will be engaged because it's foolproof to punch off in an instant, to a design that renders the gun inert but is unlikely to be engaged when it should be because it's so difficult to disengage it properly - with the gun mounted. If you think that observation ridiculous, then I guess we have different views about firearms safety. Unpleasant experience has made me picky.
-----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Mac,


A person who uses a bolt rifle would never have an auto safety, and people seem to accept that he must put the rifle on "SAFE" when he is not ready to fire the rifle. My question is when the bolt being a manual safety is accepted, why the deal of scorn for the double rifle with a manual safety?

Like I said, I have both a Blaser and a Krieghoff. I will tell you right now that in our litigious society, someday all rifles, including bolt rifles, will be made with the Blaser/Krieghoff system because it is indeed safer.

The "Blaser/Krieghoff system"???????????

The Blaser and the Krieghoff are not the same system. As 400 says the re-cocking of the action is far harder than simply clicking safety button to the fire position. This applies both the K-gun, and Blaser.

The problem is not an auto safety, in this case, but the fact that the Blaser not only does not recock the action on opening but infact,un-cocks the action on opening for any reason. It is far more important after you fire one or two shots, then breaking open the action. The krieghoff does re-cock the action. I think anyone with a lick of sense would prefere the K-gun system over the Blaser any day.

Neither are my favorite double rifles but I love the Krieghoff system, I just don't particualrly like the rifle, and you couldn't GIVE me a blaser if it required me to go into the thorn with a wounded and pissed off Cape buffalo, or lion. The K-gun is a far different story. Any one who thinks two shot will always get the job done on an animal that is already wounded, and filled with adrenaline or that you will not get off more than two shots in that sceerario, has no business hunting dangerous game with a double rifle. If you think you can get off fourshots as fast with the manually re-cocking blaser as fast as closeing, and pulling two triggers is on the K-gun which re-cocks it's self I predict you are largely mistaken.

Nobody cares if you want to take the chance inherant to the Blaser on dangerous game, that is your business, but that was not what the origenal poster asked, what he asked was which is the better choice. That is the K-GUN hands down between the Blaser, and the K-gun.

I personally like the Krieghoff system, and if Blaser people were smart they would change their system to the K-guns system. Each is as safe as the other for carrying the rifle loaded, and either are better, in that respect, than any other double rifle I can think of, but the Blaser is not equal to the K-gun for use on dangerous game, and until they re-design the Blaser so that it re-cocks the action when broken open, so that it is ready to fire when it is closed on a fresh pair of cartridges it will not qualify as a dangerous game double rifle!

You are right about one thing, there is no need to argue the matter for poeple who already have thier minds made up, but I can assure you that when asked my reccomendation between the Blaser and any other reasonably made double rifle , for use as a DGR double rifle, it will be struck down by me. IOM, the Blaser is a mauling waiting to happen, if you hunt anything that bites, scratches, or stomps!

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:

It's actually quite simple.

In the latter half of the 19th century, the appearance of the hammerless gun sparked a heated debate about safety and was widely condemned as unsafe. This was because, since the hammers were hidden, it wasn't visually obvious if a gun was cocked or not. Consequently, in the course of development a variety of cocking indicators, vestigal hammers, etc., followed, and the hammerless gun quickly supplanted the hammergun.

Both of the designs you mentioned represent retrograde movements back to the design technology of 150 years ago, and are not modern technological improvements. Both revert to what is essentially a manually cocked hammergun. In both systems, the "kickspanner" is pushed forward to cock the hammers.

Mark:

Excellent observation. I hadn't thought of it that way but that is exactly correct and here I thought I was so "cutting edge."

Mac, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us AGAIN!. If, with practice, you think you would be unable to master the simple operation of the Blaser's cocking device, then I agree that the Blaser is not for you.

Dave:

Sometimes we disagree. Sincerely, it would bother me if you took it the wrong way. I'm told that the written word often fails me when it comes to that kind of thing. I assure you, I don't intend it in any negative way, just expression of personal observations. Thanks, pal.
---------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Mark:

Don't give it another thought. I want to come down and shoot with you guys one day.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Mac, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us AGAIN!. If, with practice, you think you would be unable to master the simple operation of the Blaser's cocking device, then I agree that the Blaser is not for you.

Dave it is not that anyone would have problem master the Blaser! It is simply that it isn't necessary to master it when better rifles are available for the purpose you reccomend it for! And AGAIN you are correct the Blaser is not for me, I think I have made that fact quite cleer!
...................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Dave it is not that anyone would have problem master the Blaser!

Now see, that didn't hurt so much did it Mac?

Mac, no hard feelings. You're a great guy and you and Mark have forgotten more about doubles than I will ever know.

I swear, I am coming down there one day to one of your shoots and let your shoot my S2 even if I have to hire six burly UT football players to help me! I'll make a "cocker" out of you yet!

Dave...making them drink the Blaser Kool-Aid ???????

Biebs:

Shhhhhhhh.... Keep it on the down low. I have a secret plan. Give me six months and I'll make em all cockers... LOLOLOL.

How's things in the Garden State? You want to run down to Texas and shoot with the Texas boys sometime?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Dave it is not that anyone would have problem master the Blaser!

Now see, that didn't hurt so much did it Mac?

Mac, no hard feelings. You're a great guy and you and Mark have forgotten more about doubles than I will ever know.

I swear, I am coming down there one day to one of your shoots and let your shoot my S2 even if I have to hire six burly UT football players to help me! I'll make a "cocker" out of you yet!

Come on down Dave we're really a friendly bunch down here, we even tollorate folks that are a liitle slow. Even those who don't know better than to buy a Blaser S2!

Come on down, and we will even set up a special HOOT & SHOOT just for you and see how fast you can work that Blunder S2 for four shots, and stay on target!

Hell Mac, I can't even stay on target with two shots but your on! Will there be whiskey following the shoot?

Probably so on the whiskey....but not the kind with a tax stamp on it!!!!!!

Actually, I'll probably be down at that time. I'll be at the Dallas SCI, and then our guys on the Blaser Pro forum are trying to arrange a free Hog hunt for some disabled veterans that are stationed down that way. One of our members just returned from Afganistan and was put in charge of a facility down in Texas for war-wounded guys returning from Iraq and Afganistan with injuries requiring rehabilitation.... amputations, partial paralysis, etc. We're putting together Blaser components to make a rifle or two to give them, are chipping in for rooms/food at the Dallas SCI, and looking to take them on a hog hunt locally. Maybe we could have them attend the DRSS?