Hi Guys:

I am playing around with a new load for the 470 NE for my DR Chapuis 470 NE.

The 89 grains of RL-15 was shooting well from each barrel but the spread between barrels was 4 inches. As I increased the powder charge, I increased the speed. Thus bringing the shots closer together.

I would shoot two shots one Right then one left, then one right one left for total of four. Anyway I finally got 4 shots in less than 3 inches at 50 Yards, but I am at 94 grains of RL-15 and shooting 5 inches low. As my speed increases my shot pattern drops. This is normal from what I read.

I didn't have my Chrony set up, and I will test velocity, but do you think 94 grains of RL-15 is to hot? And yes I am using Kynoch wads.

Regards... PAH

Without chronographing the load it is really hard to tell what might be going on -- particularly given the lot-to-lot variations in RL15.

quote:

I didn't have my Chrony set up,

When I'm working up with a new lot of powder in a double rifle, if the Chrony is on the fritz when I get to the range, I don't shoot at all. Way too much density variation lot to lot. Without velocity, no way to answer your question. You're completely blind.

What kind of rest are you using?
-----------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Hi 400 NE

I was shooting from the bench....ouch... my left hand was resting on the pad of the rest with me holding my rifes forearm. The butt was just my plain old shoulder. It rocks my world to say the least. I did have a sissy pad on my shoulder though.

What is the MAX velocity in your opinion for a 500 grain Woodleigh Solid in DR 470 NE. I was thinking 2200 to 2250 FPS...???

I think I was shooting approximately 2085 FPS with 86 grains of RL-15 & 500 grain Soft Point Woodleigh.... 8 more grains should put me some where in the 2200 FPS class, I think? I know, I know, chronograph the damn loads. I will.

Then I need a lower front sight to get me on target.

What do you guys think???

Regards... PAH

quote:

Originally posted by PAHunter:

What is the MAX velocity in your opinion for a 500 grain Woodleigh Solid in DR 470 NE. I was thinking 2200 to 2250 FPS...???

I think I was shooting approximately 2085 FPS with 86 grains of RL-15 & 500 grain Soft Point Woodleigh.... 8 more grains should put me some where in the 2200 FPS class, I think? I know, I know, chronograph the damn loads. I will.

Then I need a lower front sight to get me on target.

What do you guys think???

Regards... PAH

I will try to answer this correctly since I have been shooting my 470 quite a bit.

2150 FPS is probably the max you should go and would be willing to bet the rifle was regulated at a little less velocity.

Different rifle and different lots of RL 15 but with 89 grains I am averaging 2075 FPS with the Woodys. 94 grains would be very stout.

I would be willing to bet most people hunting with the 450/470 are shooting at about 2070 to 2100.

While this is not enough velocity for a 458 win to kill anything it is fine for the 450/470.


Not to change the subject too much I found this tonight. Some pretty good information.

http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm

quote:

Originally posted by PAHunter:
I was shooting from the bench....ouch... my left hand was resting on the pad of the rest with me holding my rifes forearm. The butt was just my plain old shoulder. It rocks my world to say the least. I did have a sissy pad on my shoulder though.

Perfect.

quote:

What is the MAX velocity in your opinion for a 500 grain Woodleigh Solid in DR 470 NE. I was thinking 2200 to 2250 FPS...???

Jim, is this the Chapuis Brousse? I assume so. So that would mean 60cm barrels. Do you know what ammunition it was regulated with?

To answer your question, this rifle was proved for a standard .470 load, and was probably regulated with Federal. As you're aware, Federal is loaded with non-canister grade RL 15. Their ammo is supposed to do 2150 fps in 24" barrels (60cm = 23.6") but pressure is right at max. In other words, in 24" barrels, 2150 is max, IF you care about the pressure. Standard .470 500 grain velocity has been 2125 fps in 31" barrels (roughly 2050 in 24") for 109 years. Federal ammo is non-standard, and already 100 fps faster than standard ammo. Expensive rifle, and I don't see the need to squeeze it any harder than that.

quote:

I think I was shooting approximately 2085 FPS with 86 grains of RL-15 & 500 grain Soft Point Woodleigh....

The reason I said what I did in my first post was that there can be quite a bit of lot to lot variation in the suitable powders here. Without a velocity benchmark in the subject rifle, there's just no way to know.

When you said 94 grains RL 15, I thought "oh shit". However, a velocity of 2085 fps at 86 grains sounds right between the eyes. I remember one that did 2100 from 26" at 86 grains, so I don't think your lot is "light". From that point, I'd work up to 88 or 89, and you should be at 2150. If the barrels are still shooting wide (apart, rather than crossing) at 2150, then it isn't going to regulate with RL 15, at least not within standard pressure. Then I'd try H4831 or IMR 4831.

quote:

8 more grains should put me some where in the 2200 FPS class, I think? I know, I know, chronograph the damn loads. I will.

Gosh, I would think more than that. Honestly Jim, if 89 grains gets you to 2150, I wouldn't shoot anymore of those 94 grain loads, even to chronograph them. Others will disagree. They have more money than I do.

Does each barrel make a small group, but the two groups are just wide? Go back to four each at 87, 88, and 89. At each charge level, measure each barrel group, and the distance between the centers of each group of rights and lefts. Be sure to shoot in R/L order. Like I said, if RL 15 doesn't work, go to 4831. If that doesn't work either...

These are sound rifles and usually shoot well, but you get a few that just weren't well regulated. Find out what ammo was used for regulation, buy a box and try that. If that doesn't shoot well, I'd call J. J. Perodeau at (580) 237-7388. If you bought this rifle new, chances are excellent that J. J. can get re-regulation (normally $600) covered by Chapuis. You have some shooting to do before you get to that point though.

Give us some more feedback when you can.
--------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Hi 400 NE:

YES... My Dr is the Chapuis Brousse, and yes the barrels are 24 in. very stout a lot of meat around those big holes.

And YES it was regulated with Federal, Woodleigh 500 grain Soft points. I have two regularation targets, one 3/4 in center to center at 50 meters, the other 1.5 in at 50 meters. The right barrel prints higher than the left about a half inch. they are about an inch low and an inch left of bull.

I tried 86, 87 88 and 89 grains of RL-15 before and H4831 I think up to 104 to 107 grains.

I showed my targets of the 88 & 89 grain load to a friend who has many doubles and he said increase the powder charge. So I did...

I will go back and try the lower charges again. Maybe start at 84 to 86... with RL-15..

Damn the 94 grains was shooting good though..LOL

PAH

PAH,

You really need to get the crohny going. I have had significant velocity variations with variations in brass and bullets using the same primer and powder (215s and RL15).

If you can get your hands on some Federal ammo shoot that for groups and measure velocity first.

Hi guys:

I have just three rounds of Federal 470 ammo left. But the bullets are the Trophy Bonded solids not the Woodleigh soft points. I got these from Tiggertate. I only had five to start with.

I did take two shots with the Federal bullets the shots crossed at 50 yards. My left barrel always shoots to the left from my right. But with these Federal the second left barel shot about an inch low and two inches to the right of the first shot. The bullets have a T imprinted at the top of the bullet, I assume T for Trophy Bonded?

I am still going to fire a couple more rounds of the 94 grains, just to see what the velocity was. There was no pressure signs, like hard extraction or cratered primers? But I don't think doubles react to pressure like bolt rifles.

I put a solid red 7.5 inch ball target on the face of my bigger targets. I used the red ball target as a six o clock hold, and sat it on top of my sights. I am trying to eliminate any movement the front bead makes as it covers the other bulls eys, My eyes are not what they used to be.

Tough getting old.. LOL.. PAH

FYI 85 grains RL 15 with 500 grain Woodleigh soft, yielding 2018 FPS instrument velocity is what regulated best in my Heym. I would use 1 grain less with a solid.

PAHunter:

My Blaser S2 regulated at a much slower velocity, much like Don Soter's. Eighty-eight grains of Reloder 15 with five grains of Dacron pushed a 500 grain Woodleigh at 2047 fps from my gun. However, 87 grains shot better. I got tired of fooling with the filler so I tried IMR 4831. 102 grains gave me 2085 fps but the gun shot much better with an even 100 grains which was running about 2025 with and extreme spread of only 24 fps. That is the load I am going to stick with for now but I do want to try H4831 as well.

Don, if you know, was your Heym regulated with WR Ammuntion like my Blaser?

Butch gave me 2 loads for my Searcy 470, 90 grains of RL 15 with a filler or 106 grains of IMR 4831. I would play with that only in minor increments either way. All of that with a Woodleigh bullet. I've only used IMR 4831 so I wouldn't have to mess with the filler. Would anyone know if the Barnes TSX and Solids are long enough to use RL 15 without the filler?

Dave, yes my Heym .470 was regulated with WR (Romey) 500 grain FMJ.

gbanger:

I have the most recent Barnes Manual (No.4) and there there is no load for the .470 with Reloder 15. The slowest powder they show is IMR 4831.

Hi guys:

I originally tried H4831 from 104 to 107 grains. It really didn't shoot to well.

I use the kynoch wads with RL-15, just slide them in, no muss no fuss.

I am going to try and go down in powder range, to 84 grains and 85 grains again and see where that takes me. I think I started at 86 grains before. I still am wondering what velocity I was shooting with the 94 grains though.

I been playing with the comb of my stock a bit. I took it down about a quarter of an inch, and took down the cheek piece a bit. Fits and feels much better, don't get the whack in the cheek anymore.

Regards.. PAH

I don't have near as much experience as some here, but if you search back about 6 months ago you will find my posts on the same subject. I found with my .470 heym I was @93 grains and still not regulated.

I found that to bring the charge weight down I had too
#1 crimp my loads, neck tension alone wasn't enough.
#2 you don't mention which primers and brass you are using but most of these loads rely on federal 215's I found there to be some primers slower (win,rem) and cci's about the same. I was using norma brass which seems to be quite abit thinner than jamieson or bell, Thinner brass = more case volume=lower velocity with the same charge.

By changing these I brought my charge weight down to 89 grains.

I also found that as I practiced more with the gun, and got a couple of hundred rounds thru it some of the problems seemed to resolve themselves. I think this was a combination of me getting used to the recoil of a .470 and the gun working itself in.

I also found that shooting the .470 heym made my .458 lott seem like a shooting a .243.

quote:

I also found that shooting the .470 heym made my .458 lott seem like a shooting a Wink.243.

Any why is that?

I can't explain it. I know on paper that I should be getting more or less the same kick from the .470,but it certainly doesn't feel that way.

I think it might be the extra drop in the stock of the heym. The 458 is a ruger rsm and it seems to fit me very well. I know I can easily shoot the 458 offhand and from the sticks. 20 full power rounds are usually a range session with it. I have been shooting it every night for the last month getting ready for my trip to tanz. in september.

The .470 I can only shoot 5-6 full power rounds and I have a headache and want to quit. The weight is the same between the guns so I'm sure it is just the fit.

quote:

The .470 I can only shoot 5-6 full power rounds and I have a headache and want to quit.

Bingo.

When I had my Heym 470, it was the same story. 4 or 5 rounds and headache time.

Sorry, but I was pimping you for the reason I know myself already. There is way too much drop in the butt stock on the typical Heym, for me, and it is a kicking fool.

I feel so dirty being pimped-no kiss or anything

I'm a little surprised we both came to the same conclusion about the Heym- Did you find a solution? (besides the one I am thinking about-being pimped again when I try and sell it as a now used gun?) It kind of makes me sad really that I am going on an elephant hunt and leaving my double @ home but I can shoot the Ruger soo much better I can't even think about taking the heym. I am pretty sure I can shoot 2 aimed shots faster with the ruger than I can with the heym as well. By the time I have recovered from the recoil with the heym I can already have the ruger cycled and another shot down range.

When I first started shooting it, it kicked the holy-hell out of my check. I kept at it and by holding it God-awful tight with both hands it doesn't bother my cheek alot, but as I said after a half dozen shots the headache is there.

The front trigger cut my trigger finger to the bone a couple of times when shooting the left barrel but the gorilla grip I developed has stopped that.

I wonder if we both have the same build? I'm 6'3" tall, 235 lb average build kind of guy(not real skinny,not real stocky).

How about you?

I'm a shrimp at 6 foot, but fat!

No, no, don't leave your Heym at home. You won't even notice it going off when you shoot at game.

I just resolved myself to the fact that it is a headache producer. Some guys can take and some can't. I couldn't. I used to just shoot it 4 or 5 times at the range and then give it up for the day. But that doesn't mean you can't hunt with it.

I'd still have it but had to sell it to pay for that damn lion that I "just had to have!"

Along came a Krieghoff 470 with a single trigger and jumped on it a few years later. The straight-ish stock is a lot easier to shoot. Now I can shoot 6 or 7 rounds before I get a headache!

quote:

When I first started shooting it, it kicked the holy-hell out of my check. I kept at it and by holding it God-awful tight with both hands it doesn't bother my cheek alot, but as I said after a half dozen shots the headache is there.

The headache is still from getting hit in the face. It doesn't fit you.

What does your Heym weigh?
-------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

PA hunter -sorry for the hijack- If you are really stuck , give Chris Sells(NewGuy) a call he is the Heym dealer and knows doubles inside and out- I'm sure he will be happy to give you some advice. I know he was happy to help me out.

Will-it's too late to take it now, even if I wanted too. All my permits are for the ruger.
I decided when I shot them both off the sticks one day before my trip to Zim this spring.

I shot a group @ 70 yrds with the double- about 6" 2 lefts 2 rights.

I shot a 4 shot group with the lott- all touching!

Made up my mind for me. I'm really glad I did as the 44" buff I got was @ about 70 yrds and I never would of taken the shot with my heym. I was popping impala for bait @ 125 yrds with the Lott- I know that wouldn't of happened with the heym either.

400- I figured as much- it just doesn't fit me.
it weighs right @ 10lbs on my fish scale.

Does a .470 kick that much harder than a Lott given the same stock design?

I'm really thinking hard about getting rid of it- It honestly kicks so much harder than my lott I just don't like the damned thing and won't take it with me.

I figure I am so much more flexible (and deadly) with the Lott in my hands there is not even a thought in my mind of taking the Heym on an important hunt. I might look into getting it restocked - but if I drop another $5k on the stupid thing and still don't like it, I will feel like I just pimped myself

Obviously if the 500 gr. grain bullets are going faster in the Lott than the 470, the Lott should kick more, assuming the rifles weigh the same. The Ruger has a straight stock though!!

A lead sled and a chrony will be a cheap investment in the long run

Hi notlim:

My 458 Lott kicks probably a bit LESS than my 470 NE with factory Hornady 500 grain ammo. But it is a AHR custom with a muzzle break, heavier, and has two mercury tubes in the stock.

They are correct, if you get wacked in the face, you are going to get a headache. I solved my problem by lowering the comb of the stock and slimming my cheek peace a bit. It may sound scary to whittle on a $12K DR stock, but I am doing it with the help of my gunsmith.

PAH...

I haven't found a gunsmith I trust enough to start whittling yet.

I priced out a set of 450-400 barrels @ about $9k and thought about that for a while but there are some pretty nice verney-carron and siace doubles floating around canada right now for sale for $10K so why not spend the extra $1000 dollars and have 2 double rifles I thought to myself. Then I said "self you will still have a .470 that you don't like to shoot"
and be $10k poorer and still end up taking your Lott on safari.

This started to make my head sore again so I just went and shot my lott somemore to calm my nerves.

My Moose hunting buddy brought over his .460 weatherby this weekend to sight in the scope.
With muzzle brake and scope it weighs exactly 10# - That suckers got some momentum when it goes off. All he had to shoot was 450grain tsx factory loads in it. The box says 2660 fps but I didn't set up my chrony to check ( I didn't want him to send it to chrony heaven while he was sighting in

With the muzzle break on it moved my shoulder about 5-6 inches, the .470 and the lott move my shoulder about 3".

We didn't try it without the muzzle break
couldn't get the damn thing off with the tools we had on hand.

Hi Guys:

I tried 84 grains and 86 grains again, lousy groups. I am going back and Chrony the 94 grain load just to see what velocity I am getting. If it's around 2200 FPS give or take I am sticking with it.

By the way I am using Jamison Brass, Federal 215 primers, Woodleigh Solid 500 grain bullets, and Kynoch wads.

I could go up and down the power scale with H4831... think I will start with 119 grains and work backwards. My rifle seems to like the speed.

PAH..

PAH

Please describe your groups with 84 and 86 grains of RL 15.

What do they chrono?

quote:

Originally posted by wombat:
A lead sled and a chrony will be a cheap investment in the long run

And an expensive one in the short run when it chips or breaks your stock on your double rifle.

Stay away from Lead Sleds.

Personally I would never use a Lead Sled on ANY rifle or shotgun.

quote:

Originally posted by PAHunter:
Hi Guys:

I tried 84 grains and 86 grains again, lousy groups. I am going back and Chrony the 94 grain load just to see what velocity I am getting. If it's around 2200 FPS give or take I am sticking with it.

By the way I am using Jamison Brass, Federal 215 primers, Woodleigh Solid 500 grain bullets, and Kynoch wads.

I could go up and down the power scale with H4831... think I will start with 119 grains and work backwards. My rifle seems to like the speed.

PAH..

WOW!!! STOP!!!! 119 grains of 4831 esp IMR powder is waaaaay too high. 110 grains of H-4831 is tops in the 470 as is 106-8 grains of IMR-4831.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by PAHunter:
Hi Guys:

I could go up and down the power scale with H4831... think I will start with 119 grains and work backwards. My rifle seems to like the speed.

PAH..

As 465H&H says.

You are going against every convention of reloading,
regardless of whether your DR likes speed.

Just don't stand next to innocent people on the range.

PA Hunter

START LOW AND WORK UP.

You are going to shoot your Chapuis OFF THE FACE, if you are not careful.

PAH

At 50 yards with RL 15, with charges between 87 and 89 grains what was your best combined barrel group at 50 yards?

Once you tell me that I would then tell YOU to shoot that same load at 100 yards.

IF those results are not acceptable then I would tell you to try IMR 4831.

Because IF my double was shooting one inch groups at 50, but they were crossing at 100 that would not be acceptable to me.

I would rather IT shoot 3 inches wide at 50, 3 inches wide at 100 and 3to5 inches wide at infinity.

Well to 300 yards anyway.

quote:

I would rather IT shoot 3 inches wide at 50, 3 inches wide at 100 and 3to5 inches wide at infinity.

Finally,my question is answered,

quote:

Originally posted by PAHunter:
I tried 84 grains and 86 grains again, lousy groups.

OK. Fine. That's utterly useless information. WHAT WAS THE VELOCITY? Without that information, there's no way to know if this:

quote:

I am going back and Chrony the 94 grain load just to see what velocity I am getting.

...is Russian Roulette with five chambers loaded, or not. Further, how large was each barrel group, and what was their position relative to each other?

quote:

I originally tried H4831 from 104 to 107 grains. It really didn't shoot to well.

Useless again. Velocity, barrel group, relative position? From the information you've posted, you need to go back and start over again. All you've got so far is smoke and holes. From your posts, I get the impression that you really don't have the patience that this takes to do right.

Look, your rifle was regulated with Federal, and that's a problem - because that stuff is so inconsistent lot to lot. If the lot it was regulated with was really slow or really fast, you're fucked. If you can't get it to regulate with 500 grain Woodleighs at 2050 to 2150, it needs to be re-regulated. That's not a big deal. It isn't necessary to make a mountain out of a mole-hill.

You're ignoring correct procedures for reloading, especially for double rifles. It isn't a game. I just learned that a Chapuis I saw a while back that was torqued off-face was written off. The action was stretched beyond repair. Modern rifle, modern steel. You can bet that the buyer that ended up eating it has learned the hard way. "Finding out for myself" ain't worth it - it's already been done.
-------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

HI Guys:

I do have the patience for doubles but I do admit it is getting thin. First Hodgon Powder Reloading Manual NO.27 Page 101.. 470 Nitro Express 500 grain bullet...STARTING LOAD H4831 114 grains Velocity 2039 FPS.... MAX LOAD 119 GRAINS.... 2159 FPS.. come on guys.. I have been reloading for 35 years and reload for 14 + calibers. This isn't my first Rodeo. But MY FIRST DOUBLE RIFLE RELOADING EXPERIENCE. Also H4350 start 108 @ 2024 FPS....MAX 112 grains @ 2141... Are you telling me these loads in the Hodgon Manual are wrong?

I will Chrony the RL 89 grain loads again. But 119 grains of H4831 is not a gun busting load according to the Hodgon manual. I never stated I was using IMR powder... It is a bit faster than Hodgon.

I have about 150 rounds through the Chapuis so far. I am trying for bullet group consistency, within the alloted powder charge range.I have to admit the 92 grain RL-15 was an experiment, I never expected it to shoot so well. That 4 shot group was 3 inches at 50 yards. After the barrels heat up after the first two shots, It seems the next two shots are always going to be farther apart.

Best group I shot was with 86 grains of RL-15 at 50 yards.. First two shots 1.5 inch... second two shots say in five minutes 3.25 inches apart. Total 4 shot group size 3.25 inches. But I could not duplicate it again.

If RL15 is so inconsistent as you guys are saying, then I will Start at the low end and work up with the Chrony with H4831 not IMR4831... I don't have any IMR... anyway.

In two different 470s I get 2,150 fps with 110 grains of H-4831. If you add 10 more grains the velocity will jump to scarry heigths. I would seriously question the Hodgdon manual if it says 119 grains is max.

465H&H

PA Hunter

The standard foumula is:
Grains of Cordite times 1.19, equals amount of RL 15.

Grains of Cordite times 1.33 equals amount of IMR 4831.

Wisdom is start a few grains lower and work up.

I HAVE NEVER SEEN A DOUBLE RIFLE THAT DID NOT SHOOT ACCEPTABLE WITH LOADS THAT FIT THESE PARIMETERS. Does not matter if it was a British Double from the early 1900's or a new made Chapuis, Merkel, etc.

You need to shoot over a chrono, and let us know what is going on with your double.

You have a TEN THOUSAND DOLLAR RIFLE. IF RL 15 Does not shoot good BUY SOME IMR 4831.

THAT IS WHAT MANY DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS USE, PEOPLE THAT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING, OR THAT FOLLOW WHAT PEOPLE THAT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING TOLD THEM TO DO.

Also a double rifle is not a Sniper/Varmint rifle. IF you can hit a 9" paper plate with 2 rights and 2 lefts, fired RL,RL then you are good to go.

PS has ANYBODY on AR, shot game with an iron sighted big bore double rifle past 100 yards. IF SO LET US KNOW.

I have... and I do not try to make my Double shoot like a Sniper Rifle.

If I am hitting a standard paper plate, and my rounds are not crossing, then all I need is a plane ticket, and money for daily rate and trophy fees.