Also Ask 400 Nitro what sized groups his double rifles shoots at 50 and 100 yards...

I have hunted with him... And I have never seen him miss, when I have been with him, and I have never known of him to miss when blind hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

PS has ANYBODY on AR, shot game with an iron sighted big bore double rifle past 100 yards. IF SO LET US KNOW.

Yes, why ?

I try not to take the first shot past 100 yards
although I have done but most would be follow up shots.

If I know my gun is good to go, I don't have a problem with doing it but do try to get into a position where it doesn't have to occur.

Game is usually large Buffalo / the odd Scrub Bull.

Gun is normally a 500 Nitro.

500N

Because sometimes it might be necessary.

I prefer to shoot all of my game at under 25 yards, in fact I would rather shoot it at under 10 yards...

But sometimes you have a shot at a distance, that you should take IF YOU CAN MAKE THE SHOT.

SINCE MY DOUBLES NEVER CROSS, I do not have to worry if they shoot true, I only have to aim, and then determine IF I CAN SHOOT TRUE.

BUT I do NOT have to worry about my double.

The ONLY THING I WORRY ABOUT, is that my 450 No2 has 28" barrels, and sometimes I have to take a step back, so my barrel does not hit the animal in the head as I raise it up.

quote:

come on guys.. I have been reloading for 35 years and reload for 14 + calibers. This isn't my first Rodeo. But MY FIRST DOUBLE RIFLE RELOADING EXPERIENCE.

Jim, please don't take this the wrong way, but that means...you're lost. You're starting over. You're a rank beginner. Seriously, from long experience, the guys that have a lot of experience with other rifles are reliably the ones that have the most trouble with the shift to double rifles. Welcome to the party, pal.

For starters:

quote:

I have to admit the 92 grain RL-15 was an experiment, I never expected it to shoot so well. That 4 shot group was 3 inches at 50 yards.

Three inches is acceptable, not great, but decent - at 100.

The regulation of double rifles is slaved to barrel time during recoil. Barrel time is velocity. This is only an issue because the weapon has two barrels - and the azimuth of the recoil arcs isn't the same for both barrels. Too much barrel time - the time the bullet is still in the barrel while the rifle is moving in recoil - and the barrels will shoot wide. Too little barrel time (velocity too high), and the barrels will will cross-fire. This is why careful observation of velocity and bullet strike is crucial.

This is what's needed to help you:

Start with 83 grains RL 15, Federal 215 primers, 500 grain Woodleigh Weldcore SN, and Kynoch wads. Brand of case isn't important, just make sure you use the same cases while working up. Load 4 rounds at 83; 4 at 84; 4 at 85, 4 at 86, etc.

Fire a right and left (follow up with the left barrel as quickly as can, but not so fast that you're not sure of your shot). Make a diagram of the target, marking the strikes R1 and L1, and write down the velocity of each shot next to the marked strike. Then fire rounds three and four, and mark them R2 and L2 and write down the velocity of each.

Next, let the barrels cool to cold, change targets, and repeat the above process with the four 84 grain rounds. Then compare the targets. At the starting end of the velocity window, the barrels should be wide. As velocity is increased with each 1 grain increase in charge, the left should move toward the right. Watch your velocities carefully. When the barrels move together (right on right, left on left, with the center axis of the individual barrel groups .75" apart), stop. What you've got is what you get with that powder. With a 24" .470, if you reach 2150 fps before the barrels come together, STOP - that's max, and that powder isn't going to achieve regulation within the pressure window.

Further, if the rifle won't make small individual barrel groups with a given powder, it doesn't matter if the barrels come together or not, that powder isn't going to work anyway.

Without velocity data, individual barrel group size, distance between center axis of right and left barrel groups and their orientation, we're blind, and so are you. You haven't given us any of this data.

quote:

If RL15 is so inconsistent as you guys are saying,

Who said that? It's easily the most consistent powder I've ever found in large bore double rifles.
-----------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

PAHunter
400 Nitro is Spot On.

It seems like a lot of Drama... But once you get your double hitting where the sights look, then you are good to go.

If you are lucky, and know the right people, you can get the 14 day layover at Jurissac Park... On the way to Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
500N

Because sometimes it might be necessary.

I prefer to shoot all of my game at under 25 yards, in fact I would rather shoot it at under 10 yards...

But sometimes you have a shot at a distance, that you should take IF YOU CAN MAKE THE SHOT.

SINCE MY DOUBLES NEVER CROSS, I do not have to worry if they shoot true, I only have to aim, and then determine IF I CAN SHOOT TRUE.

BUT I do NOT have to worry about my double.

The ONLY THING I WORRY ABOUT, is that my 450 No2 has 28" barrels, and sometimes I have to take a step back, so my barrel does not hit the animal in the head as I raise it up.

450,

Sorry, my "why" ? probably came across a bit wrong !!!

I agree with all you say, closer is always preferable, just over here
it's not always possible and if they run, well, then it's a running
follow up shot !!!

Like you, My guns don't go out in the field unless they are shooting true.

and in regards to this
"and sometimes I have to take a step back, so my barrel does not hit the animal in the head as I raise it up."

Only if I get charged but I like to drop them
a little bit further out than the end of the barrel if I can !!!

HI Guys:

Really I do appreciate all the advice and help. I will do as you say and Chrony ALL my loads and start over.

The inconsistentcy I was refering to was from powder lot to lot on the RL-15.

I also thought that 3 inch groups and more from the bench no less, at 50 yards sucked. But that is what I have been getting from 84 grains to 92 grains of RL-15.

I will be back with velocities and group sizes. 4 shots per load.

Thanks for all your help.

PAH

quote:

The inconsistentcy I was refering to was from powder lot to lot on the RL-15.

Jim:

Yes, it's density varies from lot to lot, but they all do. RL 15 seems to me to vary less than some of the slower powders, like IMR 4350 and the 4831s. One of the things about doubles is the need to redevelop when you change lots of the same powder, so it's a good idea to buy the powder you end up choosing in large lots.

I know you're discouraged and can assure you that I've been there. Just part of the tutorial.
--------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Hang in there, Jim. You'll get her going.

Follow the sage advice you are getting, my friend.

FWIW, I have burned up a lot of RL-15 and have found it to be very consistent.

In the various big bore calibers that I load for with RL-15, the powder charges I have used have ranged from 80-115 grains.

When changing from one lot of RL-15 to another, I have needed to vary my charges by only 1-3 grains in order to get very consistent velocities.

Hi 400 NE:

I was thinking about that Hodgon reloading manual.. and I do believe 465 H&H is correct. Naturally I searched the web, and out of eight other manuals I finally found another 470 NE load in my newer Swift Bullet Reloading Manual for the 470 NE... MAX 111.5 Hmmm NO WHERE is a load of 119 grains max any wear near that listed or anywhere on the reloading sites on the web. As a matter of fact 111.5 MAX load of H4831 is actually a compressed load!! That Hodgon load of 119 grains of H4831 HAS TO BE WRONG!!!!

I have had enough of RL-15 and the fricken wads for a while. So I decided to start at 106 grains of H4831 and work up with Chrony velocities and group sizes, 4 shot groups from the bench. I will even post the pictures of the targets and velocities when I get done.

Hi Lex old buddy, how ya doing? Yeah I know, I know, but for $12K for this damn DR I feel like wrapping it around a tree sometime. My custom AHR's never gave me these problems.

Back to the reloading bench, maybe I can make the range tommorrow, supposed to rain anyway.

Regards... PAH..

I also have a Chapuis .470 I settled on 104 gr. of IMR4350 and it works great and chronos at 2050fps. It groups less than 2 inches at 50 yrds all day long if I do my part.

Hi Goshoot:

I have a canister of IMR4350, I will give that a try also if H4831 doesn't group well. Noted 104 grains.

Thanks for the info..

PAH

Jim:

My first reaction was in agreement with Walt too. However, while I've used IMR 4831 in .470, I've not personally used H in .470, so I didn't comment. I understand H is slower than IMR, but not THAT much. Be careful here, and start low.

quote:

I have had enough of RL-15 and the fricken wads for a while. So I decided to start at 106 grains of H4831 and work up with Chrony velocities and group sizes, 4 shot groups from the bench. I will even post the pictures of the targets and velocities when I get done.

Understood. Nothin' wrong with that. You know that the 4831 ia going to kick harder. But, hey, if it groups well, that's what you're looking for.

Good luck, Jim. Let us know how it goes.
-----------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Jim, further to the above, I fired and chronographed a bunch of Federal .470 today, both solids and softs.

From four different lots.

Velocities ranged from 1,849 fps to 2,204 fps and were all over the place in between.

Unbelievable! And they want more than $300 per box for it!

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Jim, further to the above, I fired and chronographed a bunch of Federal .470 today, both solids and softs.

From four different lots.

Velocities ranged from 1,849 fps to 2,204 fps and were all over the place in between.

Unbelievable! And they want more than $300 per box for it!

Jim:

This is SPOT ON. If your rifle was regulated with a lot that did one of the extremes, sure, you're gonna get frustrated trying to find a handload that works. This can be fixed. Be patient.
---------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Hi Guys:

Yeah.... I will be patient. Just busy as hell at work, never made it back to the range with the double yet.

Archery season starts next week in PA, and I need to work on my two bows a bit.

I also have a trip planed for Illinois for bow and Muzzleloader in November. Not enough time in the day.

I have the 470 rounds loaded up, just have to get to the range and set up the Chrony.

Regards... Jim P.

Hey, Jim, just as an FYI, I bought a couple of boxes of the Hornady .470 (less than one third the price of the Federal!) and test fired it and chronoed it for a friend.

Much more consistent than the Federal. Velocities (solids and softs) ranging from 2,100 to 2,175 or so.

The Hornady stuff seems to generate a bit more recoil than the Federal, but shoots as well as or better than the Federal in the rifle I was using.

My sense is that the Hornady .470 rounds are pretty much full of powder, as when I shake them I can't hear the powder moving around.

You may want to give it a try.

Good luck!

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Hey, Jim, just as an FYI, I bought a couple of boxes of the Hornady .470 (less than one third the price of the Federal!) and test fired it and chronoed it for a friend.

Much more consistent than the Federal. Velocities (solids and softs) ranging from 2,100 to 2,175 or so.

The Hornady stuff seems to generate a bit more recoil than the Federal, but shoots as well as or better than the Federal in the rifle I was using.

My sense is that the Hornady .470 rounds are pretty much full of powder, as when I shake them I can't hear the powder moving around.

You may want to give it a try.

Good luck!

The Hornady is loaded with H4831 I believe, which results in an almost full case vs the Federal which uses R-15 with no wad and much more airspace. Federal uses a special 216 primer that supposedly doesn't require a wad. I think they would get much more consistent results if they used a wad.

If anyone cares my last lot of RL-15 had 94gr pushing a 570gr bullet @ 2150. My new lot is 100gr @ 2100 (haven't loaded any at 101,102 yet). Seems to be about 20fps per grain so I'm guessing I'm going to need 102grs of the new stuff to equal 94grs of the old. To me an 8gr difference between lots is pretty big. I don't know how they can print manuals at all with that kind of variation. The good news is that ES is very good (less than 25 fps) and almost no filler with the Barnes bullets at least

Hi Guys:

Well I am finally back to testing the 470 NE again. Sorry it took so long, but my Chrony took a fatal hit from a sabot when testing new loads for the Savage ML II. I had enough of the Chrony setup so I purchased a new ProChrono Digital... seems to be working fine.

Back at tha range, 500 grain Woodleigh bullets solids, shot H4831 @ 106 grains average velocity 4 shots.. 2073 fps 108 grains @ 2109...110 grains @ 2137 and 112 grains @ 2185..

50 yards, first two shots 106 grains 1.1 inches 1R & 1L...next two spread out 3 inches from first two 5 in spread...108 grain 5 in spread...NG 110...first two shots 1R & 1L...1.8 inches next two shots 4 inches apart...112 grains 1R & 1L 1.671 in.... next two shots 5 inches apart. WTF...

Can my barrels be heating up and throwing off my two second shots that much after two shots? Maybe I should wait..how long?? before I try my second two shots..??? I based all my testing on 4 shot groups??? Should I just base groups on two shots then wait 10 minutes to cool before I shoot again?

This double is going to drive me to drink...MORE...LOL

PAH...

Load 20 rounds with 106 grains of H4831.

Go somewhere BESIDES a rifle range [if you can] and do some field shooting, ie plinking....

Get a few lifesize deer targets. Put two of them up. Shoot at the right one with the right bbl and the left one with the left bbl.

Shoot off hand at 25 and 50 yards.

And shoot kneeling at 50 and 100 yards.

See if you are hitting what you are shooting at.