Just received my latest "Safari" magazine from SCI, July/August 2011 edition. In it, noted gun writer Jon Sundra comments on the Sabati Double Rifle in 416 Rigby ending the short article with, "It's one helluva gun for the money" and states that he may have to buy one. Does he post on AR and if so, do you think he has read all the tests on this gun with its "system" of regulation? Giving the gun the benefit of the doubt, I don't own one nor have I shot one, but I think I'll stick to my Merkel.

Not all Sabattis have the muzzle grounding issue. Mine doesn't and I'd have to agree with the statement of one helluva gun for the money. There are happy\satisfied Sabatti owners out there.

I hear you. I was seriously considering a Sabati for a second DR as well until I saw all the reports. I'm just a bit spooked about the issue now in terms that it may indicate other corners were cut in the process. But if you are happy with your rifle, that's really what counts. How well does your rifle shoot (regulation) and have you been able to get reloads to shoot well in it?

I have been working up reloads for a while now. Decided to go with pretty much a 50 yard gun although I have shot it at 100. With my current handloads of 77grains IMR 4831, CCI 250 primers, Hornady brass, and 400gr Hornady DGX, I get about 1/2" separation at 50 yards without crossing. Above that (77grains), the barrels cross and get worse with the more powder used. This gives me better grouping than using factory ammo - about 2 1/2" between R and L barrels.

Have you tried anything other than Hornady bullets?

nope

I must ask the question. Does "Safari" magazine/SCI/Jon Sundra receive compensation for a favorable report? It would be typical of SCI$$$$$$$$$

You know Don, funny you should bring that up. I'm a member of SCI but I have to agree with you. At our local chapter's fundraiser in April, I purchased a plains-game hunt in South Africa. I have to arrange flights myself and would have preferred to fly from Toronto to Washington/Dulles, then South African Airways from Washington to Johannesburg.However, my local outfitter told me that, since 9/11, aliens are not allowed to transit by air through the USA with a firearm. I didn't accept that as gospel and corresponded with BATFE, TSA, Customs USA, and the US State Depatment. Every answer that I got was "No problem...but". There were just enough "buts" to leave a lot of doubt. Then I thought, "SCI should have a definitive answer, that's their job". Well, I'm here to tell you. if you want an excercise in frustration, try using the SCI Web Site! It is the most USER UNFRIENDLY site imagineable! You can find a thousand ways to donate to SCI, to leave your estate to them, etc. But nowhere on that site could I find one word that would take me to someone who could answer my question, I finally gave up in frustration and disgust!

Ron, I went to Namibia, via South Africa, just a couple of years ago, and I had zero trouble. I flew from Toronto to Heathrow to Joburg. I understand that Heathrow is not really "hunter friendly" (and that Frankfurt is getting that way too), but the key was that I used a travel agent (Marlin Travel), and there are a couple that are familiar with hunters' issues, and looked for an airline that would allow me to ticket my luggage straight through to Namibia (called "in transit"). I never touched my guns until arriving at my final destination, and this allowed me to avoid any of the hassles of the various countries I flew through along the way (I especially didn't want to deal with South Africa, since I wasn't hunting there).

Also, don't forgot you need an export permit from our federal government to temporarily take your guns out of Canada (takes some weeks to get, so apply early).

quote:

Originally posted by hunteratheart:
Not all Sabattis have the muzzle grounding issue. Mine doesn't and I'd have to agree with the statement of one helluva gun for the money. There are happy\satisfied Sabatti owners out there.

Totally agree. Mine shot and shot well, but the left barrel had the dremel issue so I returned it. jorge

Nimrod,
As I stated above, the "Supposed" trouble is in transitting thru the USA, which is why I'm going via KLM thru Amsterdam and on to Jo'Burg. I've done this more than once before so am well aware of all of the required permits. Funny thing is I have a Form 6=NIA from BATF which has allowed me to enter the US many times since 9/11 with firearms, to hunt/shoot IN THE USA, with absolutely no problem. I am using Canada North Outfitters, who probably have more experience in this regard than anyone else in Canada. The problem is supposed to be in"TRANSITTING, BY AIR, THROUGH THE USA TO A THIRD COUNTRY"!

Just send your rifle directly to the BATF.
They would be happy to transit it to the drug cartel of your choosing in any country you wish to visit.
Getting your gun from said cartel upon arrival may take some special negotiating skills though!

Jorge, looking at your avatar it appears you are sitting in a Goshawk? I also see you are USN retired. What did you fly in the fleet. I was also a Navy Pilot. Flew F-18's in VFA-87 off the Teddy Roosevelt during Desert Storm.

Todd: It's a T-2. I flew Vikings and I retired in 08 after thirty. jorge

Jorge, I know we are way off the original subject here now but I guessed the Goshawk since the avatar is a bit small and I couldn't quite make it out. 30 years, thanks for your service. I was in from Jun 85 to Oct 91. Last station was Cecil Field.

No problem. Cecil was my last operational flying tour as well in 1996.

I was at the Cabela's store in Boise yesterday. They had five Sabatis. Three in 45/70, one in 470 and anothr in 500. Only the 500 had the muzzels ground.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I was at the Cabela's store in Boise yesterday. They had five Sabatis. Three in 45/70, one in 470 and anothr in 500. Only the 500 had the muzzels ground.

465H&H

Despite my prior experience, if I could find and personally inspect a Sabatti in 450/400

and
the crowns were perfectly round and rifling not ground;

and
the barrels were 24" long (demonstrating that the offending end wasn't cut off and re-crowned);

and
it had a good regulation target with only two holes (if there were 4 and the words "Final Tuning" appeared, I woud be suspicious that the crowns were Dremeled to get the "Final Tuning");

then
I would probably buy it.

I only checked 2 at my Cabelas. The 45/70 was visibly ground out . The 470 NE I measured with a digital caliper and was not OFR at muzzle .BUT the regulation target showed a large spread at 10 and 5 o'clock,the reach of my hand, first and a second set at 4 o'clock about 2 inches apart . The price for peace of mind is 3800 bucks. 6 grand for the Sabatti 9800 for a Merkel.

I must have taken a "STUPID PILL" when I got up this morning. Why would Cabelas be offering for sale, Sabatti guns with obviously ground rifling at the muzzles? That seems irresponsible as hell on their part to me.

quote:

Originally posted by ron vella:
I must have taken a "STUPID PILL" when I got up this morning. Why would Cabelas be offering for sale, Sabatti guns with obviously ground rifling at the muzzles? That seems irresponsible as hell on their part to me.

Because not everyone reads AR and not everyone who is buying a Sabatti or a cheap DR
understands what is what with DR's BEFORE they buy it.

Yes, I think it is pretty poor form to put them on the "FOR sALE" rack



CCMDoc
With those criteria, so would I buy one if I wanted another DR.

.

They are for sale on just about every general gun brokering site. When I was discussing them with my local Gun Library mgr he stated most reviews are very positive on the net. I asked if he followed the discussions on AR or NE? He immediately changed the subject.

I could understand a novice who does not read these forums for buying a Sabatti. If they made a left handed rifle I most likely would of ordered one myself when they first came out.

But if anyone who reads these posts either purchases or recommends one now after reading about the "dremeled" regulation, the test target not matching the rifles accuracy, and finally the piss poor customer service from EEA (or is it EAA?) they get what they deserve.

The only redeeming factor is Cabelas seems to be standing behind them. But even then, buy one now, be happy with it, then a year from now you discover other areas where corners have been cut. They simply are not worth the gamble to me.

Sooner or later Cabelas will stop being so gracious, especially if you have problems a year down the road.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
buy one now, be happy with it, then a year from now you discover other areas where corners have been cut. They simply are not worth the gamble to me.

This is the real sticking point with me. I'm really looking to add a 450/400 NE to compliment my 500 NE. Like many here, I was hoping to pick up a new DR at a fraction of the cost by purchasing a Sabatti. The only reason I didn't was that I could not find any user feedback on it and didn't especially desire to be the Guinea Pig.

I realize that some of the rifles appear to be OK, but the others give me pause, in that additional corners may have been cut. For me, that is not a gamble I want to take into the thick stuff looking for trouble!

Back in 06, on a Buffalo hunt with a popular but inexpensive bolt rifle in 416 Rigby, I had a trigger completely disconnect rendering the gun inop. I had taken a Lion and Hippo with this same gun a few days prior and even shot it on the range between hunts. I found out the trigger would not fire the weapon as the Buffalo bull crossed a small open lane. Placing the cross-hairs on his shoulder at 30 yards, I pulled the trigger and got nothing. No click, no resistance, no spring back, just a dead trigger. I'm not implying this is a problem with the Sabatti. As I said in my first post, I don't own one nor have I shot one so my opinion is based solely on others' experiences which may or may not be fair to the rifle's maker. I'm merely stating that finding out your DG doesn't work while the sights are lined up on Mr. Nasty is a shocking experience and one I certainly don't want again.

Luckily, in this case, we just let him walk. Can you imagine the consequences of the trigger disconnecting after the 1st shot and finding the malfunction during follow up in the long grass!!

For me, I think I'll save my coin a bit more and go with a proven weapon.

quote:

For me, I think I'll save my coin a bit more and go with a proven weapon.

You'll be glad you did.

Weren't they also shipping rifles with 2-holed test targets for rifles with only one working firing mechanism?

Isn't that engraving done by interns at the Lee Press On Nail Corporation?

Isn't that a constipated otter on the top lever?

Wasn't there fake "Opto" wood grain glued on or something, like grocery-store .22s from the 1980s?

FWIW (not much, obviously!) many called this from the start.

Maybe these things deserve their own forum. Isn't there a Chevy Corvair site with extra bandwidth or something?

I guarantee these things will prove to be a purgatory for the unenlightened for decades of buyers to come. I also guarantee we'll be hearing protestations of the recently robbed (Let me show you my test target!) on AR until I finish the 30-year note on my house. That's only 26 years to go!

Thanks Sabatti.

quote:

Originally posted by MichiganShooter:
FWIW (not much, obviously!) many called this from the start.

FWIW, a FEW called this from the start and got blasted, jumped on and god knows what else.

I'm not happy it turned out to be true but am glad I spoke my mind early as houses have never survived when built on shaky foundations.


And, they (Sabatti) could have had a huge market if they had done it right from the start, knocking off a fair number of the opposition in the process.


.

I used "many" because I did, too. If I can tell something's junk without ever holding it, it is usually fairly obvious.

If I do make it to business school, Sabatti would be a great case study in how not to enter a market.

In my job, I meet a lot of dreamers bringing new products to market. Hate to say it, but maybe even most new products end up doing badly for obvious reasons. Which reminds me, I need to call back my client this week selling, ahem, a new marital aide that bears a striking resemblance to a fence post. I haven't held that either, for the record!

I supose Many was the right word if you look back, their were quite a few of us.

The thing is Michigan, With the Sabatti's, I don't think you can "tell something's junk without ever holding it, it is usually fairly obvious."

Reason is, it's not until you shoot it that you really know.

With the Baikals/Remingtons, yes, you can see that they are agricultural, No rib, screw in the end for regulation.

With the Sabs, they LOOK ok and it was only after a while that the problems became apparent with some of them, as predicted.

It was the low low cost that got me knowing it was nigh impossible to mass produce a good DR that worked.

Anyway, I agree, it would be a good case study for a business course.

.

It's part of the Walmartization of our society,low cost is everything.Is it surprising that Cabelas let this happen or were they that blind going into the deal.I have learned alot by noting how Cabelas employees react when challenged
on the quality of these guns.

Cabelas is a dumping ground for mass quantities of junk...much of it from China.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by PWN375:
Cabelas is a dumping ground for mass quantities of junk...much of it from China.

Perry

And in the process of "Walmartization" and "Chinaing" everything, they wiped out US Manufacturing.

I used to get Camouflage clothes made in the US,
great quality, easy to deal with, now, hard to do.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Just received my latest "Safari" magazine from SCI, July/August 2011 edition. In it, noted gun writer Jon Sundra comments on the Sabati Double Rifle in 416 Rigby ending the short article with, "It's one helluva gun for the money"

Believe only half what you read in gun rag magazines, and look at the other half under a magnafying glass!

quote:

I think I'll stick to my Merkel.

I think that is a prudant idea!

I know these guns have taken a real beating and some is very deserved. I worked along with Michael458 on CCMDoc's Sabatti 450-400 and even though the crowns were horrible and it would not shoot anything but what it had been regulated for I was fairly impressed with the gun. Having said that I started searching for a gun that had good crowns and was a new gun. I found a 500 NE which had a great test target and crowns were properly done. The last couple of days Michael458,450NE and myself put this gun to the test. We shot a number of different loads at both 25 and 50 yards. We all feel like the gun performed very well. No malfunctions at all and gun shot just about everything we fed it into what I would say is an average group for most doubles. We went up and down in loads and shot many different bullets to see how it would perform. One thing I need to point out is that the rifles front sight is huge and I put a peep sight on the gun to help with accuracy. I did not want to put a scope on it at this point but probably should have just for testing. The front bead covered the whole target at 50 yards for both Michael and I so we can't say we shot perfect. I will say we had very consistant results and we both shot almost identical groups. Michael actually out shot me most of the time. I left a lot of the targets and data at Michael's so this is just a start of what we found. I did not have factory Hornaday ammo to test as this is what gun was regulated with but we did try Hornaday DGS bullets. To start with I used 105 grains of IMR 4350 with all bullets as this load shoots well in my other 500's and duplicates the Kynoch load. We used loads from 104 to 108 grains and the 107 grain load shot good for me and the 108 grain load shot good for Michael. The gun shot to small groups left and right and overall groups were in the 2.5 to 3 inch range at 50 yards. I am posting to targets to show you that this gun is a capable rifle. I think with a little more load work and better sights the gun will hang with most and be fine for hunting. During our tests we shot over 60 rounds of ammo I think. One further note the 107 grain load was with CEB BBW#13 solids and is almost exactly like the test target sent with the gun.

Sam

Hey Sam,
Very happy to hear and see what Sabatti doubles are capable of doing. If they make them right and provide this level of accuracy, I will have to get another.
Stay well

Pretty good and fair write up I'd say and like most of us who actually handled and shot the Sabbatis extensively, they are a good, solid value, provided the buyer is aware of some of the issues proferred.

quote:

Originally posted by ron vella:
I must have taken a "STUPID PILL" when I got up this morning. Why would Cabelas be offering for sale, Sabatti guns with obviously ground rifling at the muzzles? That seems irresponsible as hell on their part to me.

I bought a M-97 Dakota from Cabelas. When I received it I noticed that the engraving on the barrel was crooked and in a font that did not match Dakota factory engraving.

The rifle was a backyard gunsmithing project that was obviously not a factory built rifle.

Buyer beware with Cabelas!

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
I supose Many was the right word if you look back, their were quite a few of us.

Reason is, it's not until you shoot it that you really know.

It was the low low cost that got me knowing it was nigh impossible to mass produce a good DR that worked.

Anyway, I agree, it would be a good case study for a business course.

.

Oh come on. The witch hunt has expanded. Did anyone actually see any problems from shooting it or did someone just stumble upon the dremel thing?

Was there any problems in the field? The witch hunt will have witnessed Sabatti sacrificial burnings and moves against motherhood pretty soon!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
I supose Many was the right word if you look back, their were quite a few of us.

Reason is, it's not until you shoot it that you really know.

It was the low low cost that got me knowing it was nigh impossible to mass produce a good DR that worked.

Anyway, I agree, it would be a good case study for a business course.

.

Oh come on. The witch hunt has expanded. Did anyone actually see any problems from shooting it or did someone just stumble upon the dremel thing?

Was there any problems in the field? The witch hunt will have witnessed Sabatti sacrificial burnings and moves against motherhood pretty soon!

Yes,at the last DRSS shoot in Texas,we did get to see a 500NE in action,it had the dremeled crowns and it did not shoot well at all,that gun is now back at Cabela's.