Todays group with my "cobbled together" 470 NE Sabatti. This is my second time ever to fire a double rifle, while my groups are not up to par with Jorge's "cobbled together" Sabatti, I am quite happy with what I am getting. As you can see the barrels are crossing, this group was shot at 50 yards off sticks. My understanding is that by reducing the velocity this may straighten itself out.

I have yet to shoot over a chrony, I am just trying to get the hang of the whole double rifle thing.

All I have shot so far are Hornady DGS 500grain factory loads, what it was regulated with ( using a chain saw and sledge hammer it seems ) at the factory.

50 yard group





Next time I'm gonna bring my wind flags to the range, maybe I can get rid of some of that horizontal?????????

So far it looks like I'm gonna get to use the extra $2,500.00 bucks towards trophy fees in June.


.

JTEX: That's about what I can do off sticks. My groups were all of the bench with rock-steady bags. That is an excellent group. Also double check the bullet your rifle was regulated with. Mine says DGX and when I've shot solids (just once) they were a bit faster which makes sense. jorge

Leave the flags at home and bring a chrony.

Looks like "minute of Cape buffalo, elephant or hippo" to me. The experts here will tell you how to make it better but that looks good to me.

Glad to see Sabattis showing some promise.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Looks like "minute of Cape buffalo, elephant or hippo" to me. The experts here will tell you how to make it better but that looks good to me.

Glad to see Sabattis showing some promise.

+1

Get them uncrossing and that wouldn't be bad as a start.

And if you start reloading, you should be able improve it
just because you are reloading.

.

I looked at a couple of Sabatti rifles while at the SCI show. I still think for the money it is a good double. Yes it is kinda rough in places and no frills. Yes the crowns were cut to kick the bullet in the right place. No I don't like that but lets see what is it going to be used for? Target shooting at 600 yards, NO. Is it going to be used at 100 yards, maybe. Now for the person who goes on an Africa hunt and really wants to do it with a double but really doesn't want to spend $10000 on a gun, yes. The PH that uses his gun maybe 5 times a year in a close backup at mostly wounded fleeing big animals or really close follow up, maybe if the gun is 100% reliable to go bang everytime. I think lots of PH's would love to have a double but just can't really afford or justify one. This gun will be on my list in 500NE to play with someday. I'm already double poor and have 3 500s but I think this is still a good gun to look at.
One more thing about how accurate they are with the method of regulation used. I have always tried to get my doubles to regulate perfectly at 50 yds and got really upset if they wouldn't shoot into about 2 inches at the distance. I have changed my mind on this. I love getting close and using iron sights. My eyes are getting worse everyday and I grind my teeth thinking about having to put on my glasses to see the sights. Just get closer! I now think 25 yards is a LONG shot on elephant and buffalo. I would rather be 15 or closer. Now this makes the whole Africa dangerous game thing much more a reality. Some may not want that but I do.
If the Sabatti rifle is 100% reliable then I have no problem shooting an elephant at 10 yards with it.
Oh and one other thing while at SCI show I looked at lots of old doubles and quite a few had flat crowns with the same kick cuts in them.

Sam

bring out the dremel tool and remove some of the rifling on the side of the barrels near the wegde

now on the more serius side, that is a good group that can be imporved with a bit of technique, both shooting and reloading technique, next time you shoot try to grab the barrels tighter, possibly move your hand right behind the beaver tail forend and grasp the barrels there, put that hand on the sticks and try again, it might help and it might not

try norma's 470 NE as well and see how it shoots in your gun

best

peter

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Oh and one other thing while at SCI show I looked at lots of old doubles and quite a few had flat crowns with the same kick cuts in them.

Sam

English guns ?

Have you seen this before when buying English guns ?

Sorry, I am sceptical that old guns were regulated this way.

quote:

Originally posted by peterdk:
bring out the dremel tool and remove some of the rifling on the side of the barrels near the wegde

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Oh and one other thing while at SCI show I looked at lots of old doubles and quite a few had flat crowns with the same kick cuts in them.

Sam

English guns ?

Have you seen this before when buying English guns ?

Sorry, I am sceptical that old guns were regulated this way.

500N, Yes there were a couple of English guns that had flat crowns and may have had a little cut. Could have been regulated later in life, who knows. Several others that were both old and new looked like they were done this way.

Sam

I would be surprised if any English doubles were regulated using such a crude method. Perhaps what you are seeing is something else.

I have only shot my Sabatti on two occassions. On both of those I have been using reloads that came along with the rifle. Thanks Doc.

I have not shot it with sticks or off of bags. I just wanted to get a feel for the gun. As this is the only DR I have ever shot, it handles and points very well.

I look to seeing exactly how it does shoot. From the targets that come with the rifle it is going to be just fine.

You can check me out shooting the rifle on u tube. Seach for elephant cabbage. Do not blame me for the posting my son did it.

quote:

Originally posted by h kittle:
I have only shot my Sabatti on two occassions. On both of those I have been using reloads that came along with the rifle. Thanks Doc.

I have not shot it with sticks or off of bags. I just wanted to get a feel for the gun. As this is the only DR I have ever shot, it handles and points very well.

I look to seeing exactly how it does shoot. From the targets that come with the rifle it is going to be just fine.

You can check me out shooting the rifle on u tube. Seach for elephant cabbage. Do not blame me for the posting my son did it.

Lookin' good Mr. Kittle

Here is the link to that Youtube video - but you need to lay on your side to see it properly

Killing Deadly Elephant Cabbage

If I am reading this right your rifle is crossing that badly using the factory ammo it was regulated with?

I wonder if your ammo was loaded with a different lot of powder than what it was regulated with?

As another posted stated you definitely need to chrono it the next time you get to the range. I am curious what velocity you are getting.

Good luck.

Thanks for all the kind words.

Peter-I was holding the barrels out past the beavertail and yes my hand was laying in the sticks. Thanks for taking the time to write the tips though. I am certain that you are correct that technic needs work.

I currently handload for about twenty different cartriges and will handload for this one also.

The "windflags" remark was a JOKE!

quote:

If I am reading this right your rifle is crossing that badly using the factory ammo it was regulated with?
yes, but it doesn't seem too bad to me, and remember this is the second time EVER for me to shoot a double
I wonder if your ammo was loaded with a different lot of powder than what it was regulated with?
I would bet so as it was regulated in Italy and I bought ammo in Texas

As another posted stated you definitely need to chrono it the next time you get to the range. I am curious what velocity you are getting.
me too, and I'll need the info for load development

Good luck.

Thanks a bunch!


.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:

500N, Yes there were a couple of English guns that had flat crowns and may have had a little cut. Could have been regulated later in life, who knows. Several others that were both old and new looked like they were done this way.

Sam

Well, I own a few DR's and have owned an dlooked at many more.

I have never seen a crown on an English double that looks "cut".

I know of one DR where the crowns were re cut as it wasn't shooting and it fixed the problem.
The crowns had been damaged.

I just don't believe DR's from the past were regulated by this method - English, German, whatever.

I have also never seen it written down that that is the method it is done in England.

I am happy to stand corrected if you can show me written proof of the above.

Now, I will say this, because you are in the US and you have some shoddy gunsmith's over there, it wouldn't surprise me if things have been stuffed around with by people who don't know.
ie Like re chambering 375 2 1/2" to 375 Fl Mag to increase the value.

Just my HO.

JTEX,

It looks good to me. So what if they are crossing a couple inches at 50 yards? Doubles are up close and personal guns. At 25 yards it matters not.

And I wouldn't sacrifice bullet velocity to get the "perfect" regulation. Factory loads are already on the low side, and making them even lower is, in my opinion, not a good idea. Energy especially, but obviously KO value also, can get pretty anemic when velocities drop.

quote:

Now, I will say this, because you are in the US and you have some shoddy gunsmith's over there, it wouldn't surprise me if things have been stuffed around with by people who don't know.
ie Like re chambering 375 2 1/2" to 375 Fl Mag to increase the value.

That's what I like ... a trouble maker!

500N,

I didn't say that those crowns I saw were done by English gunmakers! I just said some of the guns had flat crowns and looked like they had some cuts in them. This could have been done later as I said not by the maker. I have seen lots of flat crowns on many doubles over the years and never like seeing that. If the barrels are not crowned properly with at least a chamfer they will be damaged easily.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Now, I will say this, because you are in the US and you have some shoddy gunsmith's over there, it wouldn't surprise me if things have been stuffed around with by people who don't know.
ie Like re chambering 375 2 1/2" to 375 Fl Mag to increase the value.

That's what I like ... a trouble maker!

Will

It's fact. I saw 3 of them at one gun show. Seen others listed on the internet.

I bought a Thomas Bland 375 NE 2 1/2 years ago from a dealer and when I got the gun I about threw up. It was a wonderful gun that fit me perfectly and when I opened it I realized that it had been rechambered to flanged magnum. The proofs showed it was only proofed for 55 grains cordite. The gun was off face and hook showed damage. I sent it back for a refund. The person that ruined that gun should be shot!

Sam

Yes, one of the one's I saw was a Cogswell & Harrison, one of those crappy plain guns.

It had been fired and was also off the face, maybe even stretched, would have loved to have measured it.

.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I bought a Thomas Bland 375 NE 2 1/2 years ago from a dealer and when I got the gun I about threw up. It was a wonderful gun that fit me perfectly and when I opened it I realized that it had been rechambered to flanged magnum. The proofs showed it was only proofed for 55 grains cordite. The gun was off face and hook showed damage. I sent it back for a refund. The person that ruined that gun should be shot!

Sam

Sam, 54 grs would be the charge for a 375 Flanged Magnum, 40 grs would be the normal charge for the 375 2 1/2.

Will thanks, those are my thoughts also.

As far as the thread hijack........

I don't relaay care how the English guns are done or I would have started a thread about that.

If I had wanted an English gun I most likely would have bought one.

I didn't, I wanted something to take into the field every other year to Africa, to hunt with and kill things with.

I don't want or need a high price status symbol.

And I don't really feel like having a mid-life crisis at the moment.


Not really caring to be a member of the DRSS, too many snobs making the good folks look bad.

.

470 EVANS,

You are right as I remember now the gun had 50 grain proofs that were 5 grains under standard. The gun was reproofed after it was rechambered. It has been many years ago that I got that gun and was wrong in saying it was proofed for 55 grains.

Sam

If you are happy then that is all that matters.

If it were me I would take the gun back and have it replaced with one that is regulated. You obviously can shoot well so why not have a gun that works as it is designed. This rifle is not regulated Period! If you ever were to sell it, people will ask about regulation. What are you going to tell them? Just my thoughts. Cabelas will take care of you if you ask them.

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
JTEX,

It looks good to me. So what if they are crossing a couple inches at 50 yards? Doubles are up close and personal guns. At 25 yards it matters not.

And I wouldn't sacrifice bullet velocity to get the "perfect" regulation. Factory loads are already on the low side, and making them even lower is, in my opinion, not a good idea. Energy especially, but obviously KO value also, can get pretty anemic when velocities drop.

Will as usual spot on. One thing to add to the mix is Hornady ammo can vary in FPS as much as 50 fps. I chronographed some factory solids today (3"@50y) and I had that much velocity variation. jorge

It is very good shooting for your 2nd time out with a double. I have read it many times written by well known writers where they measured the accuracy of a double by the grape fruit or tennis ball minute of an angle standards and your group certainly meets and exceeds these standards.
Enjoy your gun, and put your savings towered your upcoming hunt.

Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Malek

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
It is very good shooting for your 2nd time out with a double. I have read it many times written by well known writers where they measured the accuracy of a double by the grape fruit or tennis ball minute of an angle standards and your group certainly meets and exceeds these standards.
Enjoy your gun, and put your savings towered your upcoming hunt.

Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Malek

That's grapefruit sized groups where the barrels aren't crossing. If you should decide or need to take a shot that is longer than 50 yds, say PG at 75 or 100 yds maybe because you have the rifle in hand and don't have time to grab another rifle, with a double that is crossing by 2-3" at 50 yds you will have no business shooting at anything that is farther away than that as the crossing gets worse the farther out the bullets travel. By the logic of some on this thread why should any double be properly regulated if it will shoot into 6 inches or so at 50 yds crossing or not? I don't agree with that sentiment, sorry.

If I were JTex I would get a chronograph, a pound of IMR-4831, a box of Woodleigh 500gr softs, and work my way up in 1/2gr increments from about 102.0 or 103.0 grains until the barrels come together at what should be about 106.0 or so grains. If that didn't work I would try RL-15 and if that still didn't work I would be talking to Cabelas about a replacement or a refund.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
JTEX,

It looks good to me. So what if they are crossing a couple inches at 50 yards? Doubles are up close and personal guns. At 25 yards it matters not.

And I wouldn't sacrifice bullet velocity to get the "perfect" regulation. Factory loads are already on the low side, and making them even lower is, in my opinion, not a good idea. Energy especially, but obviously KO value also, can get pretty anemic when velocities drop.

Will

I disagree with "So what if they are crossing a couple inches at 50 yards? Doubles are up close and personal guns. At 25 yards it matters not."

Not all DR shots are at 25 or 50.

Secondly, why accept second best ?

The gun obviously shoots, it's not going to take much to get it sorted out.

.

I think those are acceptable groups for a Sabatti. If you really wanted better you would invest more. You may be able to get it better by adjusting velocity, maybe not. At 50 yards you have a double that shoots pretty good for the price, and you are obviously a good shot.

Have you shot it standing, off-hand. If not do so, and see how your groups pattern. Shoot alot of group from 30-50 yards, that's where most of the shots with a .470 will be made.

If it was a .375, the crossing is definitely no good, as you will use that caliber to get out to 100 yards plus.

The important thing is that you are happy with what you have, possess the confidence in the gun if you really need it to perform, and it meets your budget.

Mike

Sorry, I disagree.

Accepting a double that crosses is like accepting a bolt action
that strings the shots up the target as it warms up.

However, that gun shoots and I think you should be able to
adjust it so it doesn't cross by trying all the usual things.

JTEX: Nice shooting.
We always tries to group this and that, but seldom will the poor b..... that gets hit, feel the two inch difference?

I like to think if you cant smell what you are shooting at, its too far.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Sorry, I disagree.

Accepting a double that crosses is like accepting a bolt action
that strings the shots up the target as it warms up.

However, that gun shoots and I think you should be able to
adjust it so it doesn't cross by trying all the usual things.

+1

The barrels are good and they will shoot. Hopefully, all it will take to dial it in is some good handloads. Factory ammo is too expensive anyway.

This thread certainly shows who not to buy a DR off and who will readily accept 2nd best as good enough !!! LOL

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
This thread certainly shows who not to buy a DR off and who will readily accept 2nd best as good enough !!! LOL

500N,

I think I said those groups are acceptable for a Sabbati. I didn't say it was acceptable for any other double rifle maker.

It's not my cup of tea, but to each his own.

I'll be posting some pictures tomorrow, hopefully, of a .470 Merkel and 8x75RS Merkel I shot today with some pretty impressive groups.

That's what I sell. Never sold a Sabatti, probably never will. But if someone is happy with their gun, so be it. I wouldn't want a PH carrying one.

Mike

Agreed, but there is no reason to accept a double crossing if it can be fixed by spending some time at the loading bench and the range.

OK, thanks. I just would not accept a DR that crossed like that, Sab or other maker and I don't think others should either.

It is a good group though.

I agree with what cane rat said.


I have 2 Merkel's, both shoot great, one took a bit longer to sort out than the other (partly my fault of changing too many components at once !!! LOL).

As I said earlier I'm definantly gonna handload for this rifle and see what happens with the crossing........am I worried about it? Not in the least, I have a feeling that any Buff I run into will not notice the crossing even a little bit.

I am anxious to chrony the factory loads and see what I find. I have Hornady bullets and Cutting edge bullets to play with.

As far as second best??????? That would be a HUGE step up for one from Australia, possibly life changing.

All BS aside, I am tickled with this rifle.

And again thanks for the kind words, I'm having quite a bit of fun with this. But what the hell do I know I love Remington 700s too and as everyone knows they are nothing but junk .



.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

As far as second best??????? That would be a HUGE step up for one from Australia, possibly life changing.

.

Well let's see, The US followed Australia in Double Rifle's
by quite a few years (apart from a few converts early on in the US) !!!