quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
As I said earlier I'm definantly gonna handload for this rifle and see what happens with the crossing........am I worried about it? Not in the least, I have a feeling that any Buff I run into will not notice the crossing even a little bit.

I am anxious to chrony the factory loads and see what I find. I have Hornady bullets and Cutting edge bullets to play with.

As far as second best??????? That would be a HUGE step up for one from Australia, possibly life changing.

All BS aside, I am tickled with this rifle.

And again thanks for the kind words, I'm having quite a bit of fun with this. But what the hell do I know I love Remington 700s too and as everyone knows they are nothing but junk .



.

JTex,

You should have fun with that gun, shoot it often, and embrace the recoil. I love recoil; it's let's me know what I'm shooting.

I'm not getting into the Rem 700 thing here.

Mike

quote:

I'm not getting into the Rem 700 thing here.

Me either, this "Sabatti Derangement Syndrome", or SDS as I will refer to it in the future, was just getting way too serious and contentious, my thought was to lighten it up a tad. I was just funnin'. I didn't intend to offend the "brand snobs" further, or be the cause of any major "harumphing". Nor did I intend to offend anyone by liking my rifle, I will try to be more intimidated and humiliated in the future.

I am just trying to learn and repay the learning by sharing my experience,for that I will apologize in advance. Sadly though, I most likely will not give up the endeavor to learn, Again I hope that does not cause too much distress to you few with "SDS".

For those of you that have offered encouragement and advice, thank you so much, it is appreciated. The spirit of the true Hunter and Shooter lives on.

quote:

Well let's see, The US followed Australia in Double Rifle's
by quite a few years (apart from a few converts early on in the US) !!!

I don't understand your point.

quote:

You should have fun with that gun, shoot it often, and embrace the recoil.

Thanks Mike, I intend to and so far am. I was back at the range with it today, I won't bore you with more target photos but it was pretty good again.


Jim

.

Those who think my cirticism is b/c of Brand Snobbery couldn't be further from the truth and i think you will find others are probably the same.

.

quote:

Me either, this "Sabatti Derangement Syndrome", or SDS as I will refer to it in the future, was just getting way too serious and contentious, my thought was to lighten it up a tad. I was just funnin'. I didn't intend to offend the "brand snobs" further, or be the cause of any major "harumphing". Nor did I intend to offend anyone by liking my rifle, I will try to be more intimidated and humiliated

in the future.

I am just trying to learn and repay the learning by sharing my experience,for that I will apologize in advance. Sadly though, I most likely will not give up the endeavor to learn, Again I hope that does not cause too much distress to you few with "SDS".

For those of you that have offered encouragement and advice, thank you so much, it is appreciated. The spirit of the true Hunter and Shooter lives on.

That statement should go in the dumbest thing ever herd thread you have a cheap cobbled together rifle like the czs and Montana PH actions a SAB Will NEVER and I stress this equal a VC ,K-gun or Even a Merkel just like a cz or ph will never equal or compare to a GMA or Waffen Jung you get what you pay for might as well make it good or your just going to wind up playing catch-up.Be happy with what you have but remember it is what it is and dont tout it as something more.

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
That statement should go in the dumbest thing ever herd thread you a cheap cobbled together rifle like the czs and Montana PH actions a SAB Will and I stress this equal a VC ,K-gun or Even a Merkel just like a cz or ph will never equal or compare to a GMA or Waffen Jung you get what you pay for might as well make it good or your just going to wind up playing catch-up.Be happy with what you have but remember it is what it is and dont tout it as something more.

Only time will tell and either prove you right ... or prove you wrong. Time will tell ...

Yes time will tell and since im a betting man care to wager ?

quote:

a SAB Will and I stress this equal a VC ,K-gun or Even a Merkel

Express_Rifles,

I don't understand this statement within the context of your post. Are you saying a Sabatti will equal a VC or a K-gun or did you meant that it will not?

Oops I didnt add the Word NOT EQUAL never not come close

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
Oops I didnt add the Word NOT EQUAL never not come close

Thanks. I thought that was what you meant.

quote:

That statement should go in the dumbest thing ever herd thread you a cheap cobbled together rifle like the czs and Montana PH actions a SAB Will NEVER and I stress this equal a VC ,K-gun or Even a Merkel just like a cz or ph will never equal or compare to a GMA or Waffen Jung you get what you pay for might as well make it good or your just going to wind up playing catch-up.Be happy with what you have but remember it is what it is and dont tout it as something more.

Wow! SDS to the point that you can't even type in English anymore.....for your health and sanity sake, I would recomend avoiding any thread with the word Sabatti in it. That is in no way meant as any kind of directive just a bit of friendly advice as I wish YOU the best.

Of course my rifle "is what it is", is this some sort of metaphysical refernce that I'm missing? I never meant it to be other than what "it is", a rifle.

I don't think the above mentioned makers of very nice doubles ( VC ,K-gun or Even a Merkel) will equal a Holland and Holland Royal either....so you may as well pitch them in the creek too. ( please don't, that would be horribly sad and a terrible waste ) Even though they are not "Royals" they are still fine rifles and servicable too.

Dadgummit.....no matter what ya' got there always seems to be something or somebody better out there. I think that may just bother some folks a bit. Me? Not so much.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Dadgummit.....no matter what ya' got there always seems to be something or somebody better out there. I think that may just bother some folks a bit. Me? Not so much.

Very true, but even if I have a low end DR (Zoli, Merkel et al), then I want the thing to work correctly and as much as this rifle shoots well, good groups, it isn't doing what a DR is supposed to do.

I wish all the Sabs shot well for the new DR owners as it is experienced people who can more easily overcome problems than new owners so the worst guns to have problems with are the low end new one's in new DR owners hands.

I just wish Sabatti had gone that little 10 - 20% further to make sure this was the case.

The more DR owners OF ANY SORT is good.

.

500 agreed but seriously a sab is a sab thats what it is nothing special its like the cz of double rifles full of problems and low-end...Would be like comparing a Ford to a Bentley and as we both know where I stand with the Bentleys..

quote:

but seriously a sab is a sab thats what it is nothing special its like the cz of double rifles full of problems and low-end...Would be like comparing a Ford to a Bentley and as we both know where I stand with the Bentleys..

SDS at it's best.

There a whole slough more Fords out there making people an honest living than there are Bentleys ( pardon me but do you have any Grey Poupon ).

Man I just can't win.......I drive a Chev.....and shoot a Sabatti.....son of a gun. I don't guess I'll ever be one of the true elite.

Oh gee whiz, if I only had a Bentley and a more socially accepted double rifle, I would most likely still shoot the same size groups, and be providing social security to a Bentley mechanic.

I think I may be getting a complex

.

quote:

more socially accepted double rifle, I would most likely still shoot the same size groups

Chances are your bbls would have proper regulation and would not cross but to eachs own.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by malek:
It is very good shooting for your 2nd time out with a double. I have read it many times written by well known writers where they measured the accuracy of a double by the grape fruit or tennis ball minute of an angle standards and your group certainly meets and exceeds these standards.
Enjoy your gun, and put your savings towered your upcoming hunt.

Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Malek


That's grapefruit sized groups where the barrels aren't crossing. If you should decide or need to take a shot that is longer than 50 yds, say PG at 75 or 100 yds maybe because you have the rifle in hand and don't have time to grab another rifle, with a double that is crossing by 2-3" at 50 yds you will have no business shooting at anything that is farther away than that as the crossing gets worse the farther out the bullets travel. By the logic of some on this thread why should any double be properly regulated if it will shoot into 6 inches or so at 50 yds crossing or not? I don't agree with that sentiment, sorry.

If I were JTex I would get a chronograph, a pound of IMR-4831, a box of Woodleigh 500gr softs, and work my way up in 1/2gr increments from about 102.0 or 103.0 grains until the barrels come together at what should be about 106.0 or so grains. If that didn't work I would try RL-15 and if that still didn't work I would be talking to Cabelas about a replacement or a refund.

Hi Cane Rat:
The group that JTEX shot was not a 6' group; rather it was a 3.75" at its widest spread and was a 6 shoot group. It is more like a tennis ball than a grape fruit minute of an angle. That will translate into a 7.5" group at a hundred yards big deference from 6x2=12". Certainly that is still within the killing zone of a cape bufflo.
I never said that this was an excellent group, but rather it was an acceptable group by the standers of those writers and certainly they were not shooting Sabatties, but some of them were shooting vintage English doubles.
I stated specifically, that it was his 2nd time shooting a double which means that it could play a big role in determining the size of the group. Also there is the issue of the variation that jorge has experienced in his shooting of the Hornady factory loads, up to 50 feet/sec. Heck that will cause any double no matter how accurate it is to cross fire and therefore causes some accuracy lose.
All that to say that it was too early in the game for him to return the rifle at this point, rather and hear I do agree with completely to take the steps that you mentioned.

"If I were JTex I would get a chronograph, a pound of IMR-4831, a box of Woodleigh 500gr softs, and work my way up in 1/2gr increments from about 102.0 or 103.0 grains until the barrels come together at what should be about 106.0 or so grains. If that didn't work I would try RL-15 and if that still didn't work I would be talking to Cabelas about a replacement or a refund".

Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Malek

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
This thread certainly shows who not to buy a DR off and who will readily accept 2nd best as good enough !!! LOL

500N,

I think I said those groups are acceptable for a Sabbati. I didn't say it was acceptable for any other double rifle maker.

It's not my cup of tea, but to each his own.

I'll be posting some pictures tomorrow, hopefully, of a .470 Merkel and 8x75RS Merkel I shot today with some pretty impressive groups.

That's what I sell. Never sold a Sabatti, probably never will. But if someone is happy with their gun, so be it. I wouldn't want a PH carrying one.

Mike

As promised, here are some pictures of targets shot yesterday. The first two are of a Merkel 140-2 .470 at 40 yards, right barrel on first target, left barrel on second target. 3 shots each barrel from bench with left hand support, 2 shots each barrel off-hand standing.

For clarification, the first target has two shots going through the far left hole, that makes 5 shots. Mike

Here are some pictures of my Merkel 160-2.2 sidelock in 8x75RS using 200gr. Speer Spitzer BT's from 80 yards, after having just fired 25 rounds through big bores. I was a little shaky, especially with the left barrel. The right trigger is a set trigger, which makes accuracy much better. That rear trigger, although at 4 lbs, is still tough on shaky hands. First target is left barrel, second target is right barrel with the set trigger. Great shooting rifle. Mike

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by malek:
It is very good shooting for your 2nd time out with a double. I have read it many times written by well known writers where they measured the accuracy of a double by the grape fruit or tennis ball minute of an angle standards and your group certainly meets and exceeds these standards.
Enjoy your gun, and put your savings towered your upcoming hunt.

Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Malek


That's grapefruit sized groups where the barrels aren't crossing. If you should decide or need to take a shot that is longer than 50 yds, say PG at 75 or 100 yds maybe because you have the rifle in hand and don't have time to grab another rifle, with a double that is crossing by 2-3" at 50 yds you will have no business shooting at anything that is farther away than that as the crossing gets worse the farther out the bullets travel. By the logic of some on this thread why should any double be properly regulated if it will shoot into 6 inches or so at 50 yds crossing or not? I don't agree with that sentiment, sorry.

If I were JTex I would get a chronograph, a pound of IMR-4831, a box of Woodleigh 500gr softs, and work my way up in 1/2gr increments from about 102.0 or 103.0 grains until the barrels come together at what should be about 106.0 or so grains. If that didn't work I would try RL-15 and if that still didn't work I would be talking to Cabelas about a replacement or a refund.

Hi Cane Rat:
The group that JTEX shot was not a 6' group; rather it was a 3.75" at its widest spread and was a 6 shoot group. It is more like a tennis ball than a grape fruit minute of an angle. That will translate into a 7.5" group at a hundred yards big deference from 6x2=12". Certainly that is still within the killing zone of a cape bufflo.
I never said that this was an excellent group, but rather it was an acceptable group by the standers of those writers and certainly they were not shooting Sabatties, but some of them were shooting vintage English doubles.
I stated specifically, that it was his 2nd time shooting a double which means that it could play a big role in determining the size of the group. Also there is the issue of the variation that jorge has experienced in his shooting of the Hornady factory loads, up to 50 feet/sec. Heck that will cause any double no matter how accurate it is to cross fire and therefore causes some accuracy lose.
All that to say that it was too early in the game for him to return the rifle at this point, rather and hear I do agree with completely to take the steps that you mentioned.

"If I were JTex I would get a chronograph, a pound of IMR-4831, a box of Woodleigh 500gr softs, and work my way up in 1/2gr increments from about 102.0 or 103.0 grains until the barrels come together at what should be about 106.0 or so grains. If that didn't work I would try RL-15 and if that still didn't work I would be talking to Cabelas about a replacement or a refund".

Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Malek

Malek,

I wasn't referring specifically to his group being 6", I was instead referring in a generic sense to the idea of a grapefruit sized group with crossing shots being acceptable according to some on here, obviously his is smaller than that and furthermore there is no reason to accept crossing if the situation can be corrected with some time spent at the loading bench and the range. His barrels are accurate and individually group well, his shooting is fine, he only needs to get the crossing sorted out.

I disagree that the groups posted translate to a 7 1/2" group at 100 yds, if they were not crossing yes, but crossing only gets worse with distance which is why you don't want them to cross in the first place.

Cheers.

fifty yards, four shots Hornady factory ammo:


Like Confiucious said, a picture's worth a thousand words.

Why not back it up tp 75 yards see if it crosses ?

Crap JTEX, that thing don't shoot worth a shit. Why don't you just dump it at my house. Only a couple a miles down 2100. LOL.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
fifty yards, four shots Hornady factory ammo:


Like Confiucious said, a picture's worth a thousand words.

Jorge,

I should haved been more specific. the .470 was regulated with Wolfgang Romey ammo, which I would refuse to buy from Westley Richards due to the @$200 for 6 rounds.

This is a gun I have for sale, not my personal gun, and therefore have never worked up handloads for it. I was shooting Hornady factory loads from a rifle regulated with a totally different ammo, with my poor eyesight, from an unfamiliar gun.

Not that I'm going to, but given those patterns, no crossing whatsoever, no altering of the crowns, and some appropriate handloads, that gun will flat out shoot.

Also, the rifle was always in my hand, never rested on an artificial rest, and two of the shots from each barrel were taken standing off-hand with no support whatsoever.

You may be able to show the same results with your Sabatti, and I applaud you if you can. Every Merkel I've ever shot can produce similar results; not sure all Sabbati's can claim the same.

As for the 8x75RS, this gun shoots out to 200 yards just like it does at 80 yards. I couldn't get out to the farm over the weekend, so the longest range at my house is 80 yards.

Notice, there's no crossing with either gun, and about 1/2"-1" seperation between the two barrel patterns. That more closely approaches proper regulation. I've personally never seen a Merkel whose barrels crossed. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
Why not back it up tp 75 yards see if it crosses ?

One hundred yards as posted the other day on the "HORRIBLE" Sabbati thread. I believe there was some crossing, but at 100, who cares, I'm never going to shoot this thing past 50 let alone 100.



And to all this I'll add, it's not all wine and roses with this Sabbati. Like 500N said, I WISH they would have gone the extra 10-20% and made the regulation issue right from the start, I would have GLADLY paid the extra money. And truth be told, had I SEEN the left barrel of mine with the "Guido regulation" I would have never bought it, NEVER.

But let he who lives in glass houses; Over on the African Forum there is a thread about one of our memebers who had his Merkel 500 "double" right before he left on safari and had to leave it behind. Here in the Doubles forum there was another anectdote about a Merkel with ejectors that failed and a couple of others issues. That, and the wood/engraving issues, etc.

A good friend of mine's Blaser Luxus(?) complete with sideplates, super engraving and super wood, cracked the scope mounts AND the stock after a few rounds. There has also been issues with Searcys and one hell of a Donnybrook with a WR a couple of years ago that I think he over 30K views. That one grouped like a cylinder bore and in fact even the chambers were oval and the bores did not slug true. So what's my point? There are issues with ALL of these and Sabbatis more than all to be sure, but for 5500 bucks I shoot targets like the two above, everything works and I'm up to 155 plus rounds. For the money invested and more importantly the way Cabelas is backing them with FULL refunds, they are the best value out there, not better rifle than a Merkel, but for the money, at least in my case a better value. jorge

jorge

You shouldn't have a problem getting your gun to un cross.

As soon as you can, chrony it, then get some ammo that is slightly slower
and shoot it and see if there is a difference.

quote:

jorge

You shouldn't have a problem getting your gun to un cross.

As soon as you can, chrony it, then get some ammo that is slightly slower
and shoot it and see if there is a difference.

Dear GOD! You have got to be the most confounding fella I have ever run across. Why in God's name would there be any trouble with how Jorge's rifle shoots.

You Sir appear to be no more than a troll! I am done with you.

How could you even tell whether the rifle crossed or or the shooter crossed at 100 yards, with those express type sights.

You have made my ignore list, your Sabatti Derangment Syndrome has taken you beyond any reason or sense. I think I will stay tuned in to reality.

Goodbye and have a good life ( or at least the best that your SDS will allow).

.

500: I chrono everything I shoot. Therein lies the problem. This gun likes velocities in the 2050-2100 range. Anything faster and they cross big time and I'm not happy about that. Anything slower and I really think you start losing effectiveness from a MV perspective. What this rifle has done for me is three things; It has gotten me into the Double Rifle business, I have learned a LOT from you all here and from loading my own stuff and it has gotten me back into iron sights, the last really started with an 1895 Win in 405 I bought about six months ago.

While I haven't really decided on what caliber for my VC (I have until April), I'm really thinking either another 450NE or a 500, but I think I really would like to shoot a 500 before I decide.

quote:

While I haven't really decided on what caliber for my VC (I have until April), I'm really thinking either another 450NE or a 500, but I think I really would like to shoot a 500 before I decide.

Jorge,

Get a 470 like mine, according to M. Sullivan it's a lady's rifle and we should have no problem shooting them in our dotage.

The .500 is awesome though.

quote:

What this rifle has done for me is three things; It has gotten me into the Double Rifle business, I have learned a LOT from you all here

When you get ready to " step up" and get rid of your Sabatti let me know.

Jorge, I would like, if you don't mind, to know how you are going about shooting rested off sand bags.

Your technique, if you will.

I am about ready to start load development and would like to be more precise than "sticks". I have heard and read that you can't really do the front rest and rear bag type of thing with a double.

.

PM sent.

Thank you Sir.

JTEX and Jorge,

As a humble and happy Sabatti .450 owner myself, thank you for being great ambassadors (and voices of reason/sanity) in an often times hostile cyber world.

I bought my Sabatti as a working tool with a specific goal of taking buffalo and a tuskless. I am fortunate in that I can afford to buy virtually any rifle on the market. I got to this point by not spending my money foolishly on things I do not really need. Happily this rifle got me right where I wanted to be for only 5K, its level of fit, finish and accuracy are all quite satisfactory. The thought of 15-20k for a working rifle is as irritating as the thought of trading my perfectly good dodge 4x4 for some english land rover at 3 times the price.

Loving my rifle and growing increasingly intolerant of internet snobs.

"Cheers" JCS

Glad your rifle is working out, mine sure is and I share your thoughts EXACTLY. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:
JTEX and Jorge,

As a humble and happy Sabatti .450 owner myself, thank you for being great ambassadors (and voices of reason/sanity) in an often times hostile cyber world.

I bought my Sabatti as a working tool with a specific goal of taking buffalo and a tuskless. I am fortunate in that I can afford to buy virtually any rifle on the market. I got to this point by not spending my money foolishly on things I do not really need. Happily this rifle got me right where I wanted to be for only 5K, its level of fit, finish and accuracy are all quite satisfactory. The thought of 15-20k for a working rifle is as irritating as the thought of trading my perfectly good dodge 4x4 for some english land rover at 3 times the price.

Loving my rifle and growing increasingly intolerant of internet snobs.

"Cheers" JCS

Add me to the list of thos who agree.

quote:

JTEX and Jorge,

As a humble and happy Sabatti .450 owner myself, thank you for being great ambassadors (and voices of reason/sanity) in an often times hostile cyber world.

I bought my Sabatti as a working tool with a specific goal of taking buffalo and a tuskless. I am fortunate in that I can afford to buy virtually any rifle on the market. I got to this point by not spending my money foolishly on things I do not really need. Happily this rifle got me right where I wanted to be for only 5K, its level of fit, finish and accuracy are all quite satisfactory. The thought of 15-20k for a working rifle is as irritating as the thought of trading my perfectly good dodge 4x4 for some english land rover at 3 times the price.

Loving my rifle and growing increasingly intolerant of internet snobs.

"Cheers" JCS

JCS-Thank you for the kind words. We have a bit in common. Good luck on the Buff and Elle. My Sabatti is gonna kill a big Buff in June.

So far it's shooting good.
.

Has anybody seen or heard any reports from Sabbatis in the field? I know there is a member who is a PH and has a 500 and used it afield this year. jorge