I'm looking for my first double for Africa. Thinking Blaser vs Kriefhoff vs Merkel. I'm a lefty. Any suggestions?

Merkel and Blaser do not make lefty doubles. Not sure about Kriefhoff.
If you are looking for a stopper either Searcy or VC will build you a nice rifle for $11-$13K, more with options. If buff or tuskers are not on the menu then consider the Chapuis 9,3x74R built to order for about $5,300.
Heym will make you a lefty as well and others can verify the price but am thinking they start at about $18,000.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Merkel and Blaser do not make lefty doubles. Not sure about Kriefhoff.
.

Merkel will build you a lefty as will K-gun, but I wouldn't even consider the Blaser if you are going to use the rifle to hunt dangerous game!

V-C,Chapuis, Merkel, and K-guns are all good but different in design, but the designs though drasticlly edifferent are all very reliable, and strong, and all are normally very accurate in my experience!

The Sabattis are out IMO for quality control problems, and For Dangerous game the Blaser's design makes them unsuitable IMO, because they are designed with an automatic de-cocking feature that automaticlly de-cocks the rifle if the action is opened for any reason.

IMO, for what its worth, a double rifle used for dangerous game that de-cocks it's self in the middle of a fight with a Buffalo, lion, or Elephant that is not stopped with the first two shots when the rifle is broken open for a recharging of the barrels, is not my idea of a good feature. Addtionally this feature cannot be disenguaged because it is the only facility for cocking the rifle! No double rifle or any other kind of rifle used to hunt dangerous game should be fitted with an auto-safety

Many think the Krieghoff's de-cocking system is the same as the Blaser, but that is certainly not the case.

The K-gun once cocked, and fired one or both barrels, and broken open for the re-load re-cocks it's self just like any normal double rifle, and when closed is ready to fire with only the pulling of the trigger, or triggers!

I know your problem with being left handed where good rifles are concerned, My younest son has a left master eye, and has always shot left handed, an so had to use very expencive bolt rifles, or singleshots like the Ruger No1 to get bigbore rifle he could shoot, and depend on!

..............Good luck, and good hunting!

Mac,
That is news to me that Merkel will build a true lefty with left trigger up front firing the left barrel first. I did not realize they were in the lefty game.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Mac,
That is news to me that Merkel will build a true lefty with left trigger up front firing the left barrel first. I did not realize they were in the lefty game.

You are correct that the triggers still fire the same barrels, but are positioned so the triggers are for a left hand shooter. It makes little difference which trigger fires which barrel as long as the rifle regulates properly, only that they are positioned properly for the left hand.

When you are left handed, unfortunantly one has to make concessions.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
When you are left handed, unfortunantly one has to make concessions.

Mac,
That is why I mentioned that Searcy and VC will build you a "true" left handed rifle. No concessions needed with either two of these builders. Also according to Kebco, Chapuis will build a true lefty 9,3. One of these days I plan on selling my 9,3 and having a new one built. This way all my doubles will operate in the same, correct way: left trigger in front, firing left barrel first. It does make a difference. I doubt a right hand person would want the left trigger in front firing the left barrel first.

No way in the world am I going to settle for a half built lefty when putting out $11 to $13K for a rifle, but thats just me.

Merkel does not build a true lefty gun at present. They do put lefty stocks on an otherwise totally right hand rifle.

I currently have a left stocked .500 NE in inventory. The stock makes a difference in establishing a proper mount, but the top lever still works like a righty and the triggers and barrels still fire the same as a righty.

Mike

I helped to "bird dog" a full left handed Verney-Carron for a friend who was right handed but several years ago lost the use of his right eye due to M.S..

Once he received it, he brought it up to my place for some guidance and to shoot it. I was totally impressed. Top lever opened to the left. Front trigger fired the left barrel. Rear fired the right. Triggers swept for the left hand. With factory regulated ammo (Hornady) the left barrel shot 5/8" from the right barrel (not crossing). I have never seen a left handed double thought out so well.

As always, the fine folks at Verney-Carron will listen to their customers needs. Ken at KEBCO can rig you up.

.[/QUOTE]
IMO, for what its worth, a double rifle used for dangerous game that de-cocks it's self in the middle of a fight with a Buffalo, lion, or Elephant that is not stopped with the first two shots when the rifle is broken open for a recharging of the barrels, is not my idea of a good feature. Addtionally this feature cannot be disenguaged because it is the only facility for cocking the rifle! No double rifle or any other kind of rifle used to hunt dangerous game should be fitted with an auto-safety
[/QUOTE]

Mac,
I respect both your opinion and experience with DR's and DG. I must disagree with the auto saftey issue.

It is also a personal preference issue, I have two DR's that auto saftey and was raised shooting sxs shotguns that nearly all when opened went safe. I AUTOMATICALLY without thinking flick saftey's on and off when the time is appropriate, which is probably why I am not a K gun fan.

In fact, I believe just the opposite is true, inaction creates a dangerous gun condition, inaction with auto saftey creates no danger. If you cannot take your gun off safe when a buff or jumbo comes, frankly your in the wrong game.

Steve

Nganda

I totally agree with Mac! Perhaps you've spent too much time with your Daisy and your .22

Perhaps, just differing opinions, what each is use to operating, thats why they offer it both ways in "proper rifles"

I like my Merkel .500 NE very much. It is very solidly made. I did send it to Baily Bradshaw to get a ghost ring built for it and he is replacing the front blade with a red fiber optic bead.

Can't wait to get it back. I was able to pick it up at a great value in this economy too.

Merkel makes a great gun, I like the Chapuis a lot also.

Hi Lane Look, I'm not arguing about lions

Happy 4th

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

Mac,
I respect both your opinion and experience with DR's and DG. I must disagree with the auto safety issue.

It is also a personal preference issue, I have two DR's that auto saftey and was raised shooting sxs shotguns that nearly all when opened went safe. I AUTOMATICALLY without thinking flick saftey's on and off when the time is appropriate, which is probably why I am not a K gun fan.

In fact, I believe just the opposite is true, inaction creates a dangerous gun condition, inaction with auto saftey creates no danger. If you cannot take your gun off safe when a buff or jumbo comes, frankly your in the wrong game.
Steve

Steve you are of course correct one should use what he has used all his life. However as far as “FLICKING” the safety automatically would be quite a chore with the Blaser! The fact is you are not working a safety, but cocking both tumbler springs! The inaction you speak of with a safety only applies when things are calm, not when you have just re-loaded both barrels with a Buffalo closing on you fast. In this case the rifle doesn’t need to be on “SAFE” it needs to be tossing big bullets in that buff’s face and the last thing you need is anything that hinders you pulling the trigger as soon as that rifle is closed. We are talking not seconds but milliseconds lost if you forget that damn auto safety. Milliseconds that could get you or someone else in your party killed!

I have posted this before but here it is again! This is shooting under pressure, but nothing like the pressure you are under with death staring you in the face! We were shooting a timed course of fire with double rifles for four shots which requires a total re-loading in the middle of the course of fire.

This was shooting at a target that was 8 inches in diameter at 25 yards! We started with the rifle loaded and the safety “ON”! Each shooter had a timer behind him, and the time started when the first shot was fired. The target had a 2 inch ten ring, with 8 inches of black bull. The best possible score you could post was 40 points if all four shots hit the ten ring, and any shot that missed the 8 inch black were considered total misses. All my double rifles either have non-auto safeties from the maker, or have had the auto feature disconnected save the one I was shooting that day. I scored 36 points of a possible 40 points in just over 4 seconds flat. However I tried to fire shot no 3 with that damn safety in the “ON” position. NOW I did recover quite soon, but if not for that safety I could most likely shaved another second off that time, and that extra second could have cost me my life, or at least caused me to take a real mauling if that 8 inch target had been a cape buffalo, or lion!

As I said in my first post, IMO no double rifle , or in fact, any rifle used to hunt dangerous game should be fitted with an automatic safety. An auto safety makes no more sense on a double rifle than it would on a bolt-action rifle! in the case of the difference between the Blaser, and the Krieghoff is the K-gun re-cocks it's self, the blaser does not! The only thing on the K-gun that is automatic is that it re-cocks it's self just like every other double rifle in existance except exposed hammer guns.

That being said you are correct it is a matter of personal choice, and again my opinion is, on a deer rifle or a shotgun for birds have one if you want, but how many pump and simi-auto shotguns have you seen that the safety goes on when they are worked in action? If they did and you forgot to take it off safety what is lost beyond a missed shot? Missing the safety on a double rifle with a lion closing is far more serious I think!

Below is the opinion of a double rifle maker on this very subject, taken from the owner’s manual!

OPERATION OF THE DOUBLE RIFLE “SAFETY” MECHANISM
The double rifle safety mechanism is located on the tang of the receiver assembly just in front of the buttstock on the top side. Some Merkel double rifles are equipped with Automatic Safeties, i.e., the safety is automatically engaged each time the breech is opened.

Double rifles in 375H&H, 416 Rigby, 470NE, and 500NE are not equipped with automatic safeties because they are designed for dangerous game when the need for quick reloading and follow-up shots are critical.

Mac,

I'm not speaking for Steve but I venture he would agree with you on the Blaser as do I. As far as the K-guns I am in total agreement with him that their cocking mechanism is a detriment to an otherwise fine rifle. A very well known gun writer/African hunting personality confided to me personally that he had used a borrowed K-gun on a hunt in Africa in wet conditions and when the time came to shoot on a large PG animal he had difficulty cocking the K-gun because his hand was slightly wet and kept slipping as he tried to cock it. He told me that he was very glad that hadn't happened while on DG as the consequences could have been dire. He, like many of us, didn't feel comfortable carrying around a cocked rifle with no safety and chose to wait until the time to shoot to cock the K-gun and then had difficulty doing so. As far as an automatic safety which is easily manipulated, such as on Steve's Armeria de Madrid .500NE, I think it is a matter of personal preference and what one has grown used to. The K-gun and Blaser are entirely different animals.

Cheers,
Andy

I agree with Mac. I'll put it on safe when I want it on safe.

I've got a Merkel that apparently is extremely safety conscious. It jumps on safe between barrels. Seems like a hazard to me. It's going to the smith.

Lavaca, all the Merkel needs is a to increase the tension on the safety spring! Simple fix!

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Mac,

I'm not speaking for Steve but I venture he would agree with you on the Blaser as do I. As far as the K-guns I am in total agreement with him that their cocking mechanism is a detriment to an otherwise fine rifle. A very well known gun writer/African hunting personality confided to me personally that he had used a borrowed K-gun on a hunt in Africa in wet conditions and when the time came to shoot on a large PG animal he had difficulty cocking the K-gun because his hand was slightly wet and kept slipping as he tried to cock it. He told me that he was very glad that hadn't happened while on DG as the consequences could have been dire. He, like many of us, didn't feel comfortable carrying around a cocked rifle with no safety and chose to wait until the time to shoot to cock the K-gun and then had difficulty doing so. As far as an automatic safety which is easily manipulated, such as on Steve's Armeria de Madrid .500NE, I think it is a matter of personal preference and what one has grown used to. The K-gun and Blaser are entirely different animals.

Cheers,
Andy

Certainly the K-gun is not for everyone! Not many doubles are right for everyone, regardless of type!

When the K-gun first hit the market it was thought to be an accident waiting to happen. Most of the posters on most websites that had a double rifle forum proclaimed it a hazard to the hunter’s health. I was proudly among those with that opinion. That was because we did not understand how the rifle worked. It was assumed that the rifle was like the Blaser, and had to be cocked every time the rifle was opened. Talk was so prolific in that direction that Krieghoff posted a link to an animation of how the rifle’s action worked. Once the action system was understood the fear went away with most of the long time double rifle hunters.

The wet hands thing simply doesn’t make sense, because the lever is so high, and with a rough surface so that if done properly is not a problem with very wet hands. I think it is more the guy was not used to the rifle than the wet hands. This rifle is best cocked with the rifle at one’s waist before bringing it to the shoulder. This simply pressurizes the tumbler springs. The tumblers are already in the cocked position. If now the rifle is fired one or both barrels and broken open for the reload the rifle re-cocks it’s self, so that when the rifle is closed on a new pair of cartridges all that is needed is to pull the triggers to fire the next two, and all subsequent rounds. This is the way all double rifles are made except the Blaser! If the rifle is not fired after being made ready to fire, all that is needed is to push the so-called safety forward slightly, and release it to take the pressure off the springs. With the Blaser if the breech is opened for any reason the rifle is de-cocked and must be re-cocked manually before it can be fired.

Like Nganga said it is a matter of what you are used to as far as working the rifle properly, and the rifle with a normal safety if loaded is far more dangerous to others around you than the K-gun with is loaded, and un-cocked, and when cocked properly, and fired, broken to re-load works exactly like the best grade H&H double rifle, it re-cocks the tumblers and springs for the next two. A double of any make with an automatic safety, in this same situation the shooter must remember to release the safety before he can shoot the rifle. In many cases, with a lion or Buffalo closing fast, the safety is an easy thing to forget.

Here is a happening I read about some years ago, which demonstrates what can happen with the auto safety when being charged at close range. It seems the PH and the client hunter were tracking a buffalo in some tight bush, when they spotted him, and the client disengaged the safety, and hit him with the right barrel. The Buff took a couple of steps before the client could put another one in him. Since the buff was out of sight, but very near the client broke the breech and re-loaded the right barrel, just as he closed the rifle the buffalo charged out of the bush quite close, the client shouldered the rifle but did not fire on the buff, before the bull hit him. The client hunter was killed instantly, and the PH killed the buffalo. They couldn’t figure why the client did not fire his rifle and assumed he had frozen, till it became clear when they looked at his rifle. The client, because he had opened the rifle after his first shot, and the bull charged as he was closing the rifle he forgot the safety. They found he had squeezed the trigger so hard he had broken it off and the rifle was still loaded, and the safety was still in the “SAFE” position. In this case the rifle was very safe for the buffalo, but certainly not for the client, or any member of his party!

As I said IMO no rifle used for the hunting of dangerous game should be fitted with an auto safety, and 99% of the big bore DGR doubles do not have the auto safety, unless the customer demands it! The rifle I was shooting down at the Julif, Texas Hoot & Shoot was a little 9.3, not generally thought of as a stopping double rifle! You will find 99% of the doubles with auto-safeties will be small to medium bores!

However, since it is a free country, I say use what you want, but be advised you alone are responsible for the result of that choice!

…………………………………………… .......................

Mac,

I respect your opinion but I guess this is just splitting hairs, in my opinion, on automatic safeties. I don't have one on my VC .470NE and don't feel the need but Steve does on his .500NE and likes it as that is what he has grown accustomed to from shooting bird guns as a kid.

As far as the Blaser I agree with you and on the K-gun I guess I don't. I have shot the K-gun a good bit in a .470NE and don't care for nor see the benefit of the cocking system. As I have said before I believe it is a detriment, both functionally and esthetically, to an otherwise very fine rifle. It wasn't a question of familiarity with the gun in the incident with the writer I referred to, it was a combination in his words to me of sweat and rain which made his hand slippery and the rifle difficult to cock and he said he does not care for the cocking system instead preferring a rifle with a traditional safety.

The world would be a dull place if we all agreed on everything and there is obviously a market for all type of doubles so one should buy what they like.

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:
Mac,

I respect your opinion but I guess this is just splitting hairs, in my opinion, on automatic safeties. I don't have one on my VC .470NE and don't feel the need but Steve does on his .500NE and likes it as that is what he has grown accustomed to from shooting bird guns as a kid.

As far as the Blaser I agree with you and on the K-gun I guess I don't. I have shot the K-gun a good bit in a .470NE and don't care for nor see the benefit of the cocking system. As I have said before I believe it is a detriment, both functionally and esthetically, to an otherwise very fine rifle. It wasn't a question of familiarity with the gun in the incident with the writer I referred to, it was a combination in his words to me of sweat and rain which made his hand slippery and the rifle difficult to cock and he said he does not care for the cocking system instead preferring a rifle with a traditional safety.

The world would be a dull place if we all agreed on everything and there is obviously a market for all type of doubles so one should buy what they like.

The last statement in your post I agree with totaly! It seems however all the makers of double rifles in DGR chamberings,except Blaser, do agree with me on the auto safety issue! So at least one maker makes this world not so dull!

On the K-gun, I don't own one and never have owned one, but the reason I don't own one has nothing to do with the cocking system! It is beacuse the rifles simply do not fit me well, and would require a very expensive restockng to make it fit. If they did fit me I would most likely have bought one years ago!

None of my double rifles or shotguns have an automatic safety. No switching back and forth.

Dave

MacD37 makes a valid point about auto safeties especially with his story of the wounded Buffalo. But, I will defend Nganga and say that establishing good muscle memory is an important consideration when dealing with dangerous game and your preperation towards hunting them.
I have fired tens of thousands of rounds through SxS shotguns with automatic safeties on driven shoots, tower shoots and over the dog. As the gun comes up the safety comes of there is no thinking it just happens....But will this happen after an emergency reload and a charging Buff ?? It's hard too say we all handle pressure differently. I have a 1905 Gibbs 450 NE with an Automatic Safety I have attempted to have it dismantled per common wisdom as mentioned above, unfortunately two gunsmiths say it can't be done so I'm satisfied that with the muscle memory that I have developed over the years shooting my SxS that the safety will not be a problem..

Blah, blah, blah....

I have a Blaser, Krieghoff, and a Chapuis. The Blaser and the Krieghoff have to be cocked before firing and the Blaser has to be "re-cocked" after reloading. The Chapuis has a traditional safety. I can work all of these guns because I am not f*@king stupid and would have no trouble hunting with any of them. I also own a Blaser R93 bolt rifle that has to be cocked before firing as well. IMHO the Krieghoff and Blaser have THE BEST AND SAFEST SYSTEMS ON THE MARKET. I don't want someone walking behind me through the thick stuff with a double with a traditional safety on his shoulder, muzzles pointed right at my back. Mac, you buy what makes sense to you and I'll will buy what makes sense to me.

I once read a story about a guy and his wife who were charged at close quarters by a buffalo. The guy managed to get off a shot from his .470 double but couldn't get off a second shot because he kept trying to pull the same trigger. For most of us it is way harder to learn to operate two triggers than a safety. Should we do away with double triggers too? Don't answer that Will!

People in Africa hunted for years with doubles with external hammers that had to be cocked for every shot.

Mac, does it ever occur to you that every time you make a statement such as "I wouldn't even consider the Blaser if you are going to use the rifle to hunt dangerous game!" you are basically pissing on all of us Blaser owners. Maybe you could say something like "I personally don't care for the Blaser because..."


By the way, my Blaser and my Krieghoff are extractor guns and my Chapuis has ejectors. I don't care for the ejectors.

As I stated above I think everyone should buy what they want and are comfortable with. I personally don't care for the cocking system on a Blaser or Kreighoff and I don't have to buy one so that's fine and if someone else wants to buy one that's fine, too. I happen to love Weatherby cartridges and Mark V rifles and there is a lot of this sort of discussion around them as a lot of guys hate them, but they don't have to buy them, and that doesn't make me stupid for liking them. Same sort of deal, I guess.

Dave made a great point about hammer guns and to take a step back further at one time it was muzzle loading hammer guns for DG. Like I also said above, I think most of this is just splitting hairs. In reality, all of the guns mentioned; auto safety versus non-auto, K-gun type cocking system versus traditional, single trigger versus double trigger, hammerless versus hammer gun and single shots have been and are used with good success on DG.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Blah, blah, blah....

Mac, does it ever occur to you that every time you make a statement such as "I wouldn't even consider the Blaser if you are going to use the rifle to hunt dangerous game!" you are basically pissing on all of us Blaser owners. Maybe you could say something like "I personally don't care for the Blaser because..."


By the way, my Blaser and my Krieghoff are extractor guns and my Chapuis has ejectors. I don't care for the ejectors.

Dave, Dave calm down! I never said you shouldn’t, use YOUR Blaser to hunt dangerous game! That, my fine friend, is entirely up to you, and anyone else who chooses that system. What I have always said is, “I" WOULDN’T use or recomend a Blaser S-2 for hunting dangerous game, given a choice nor will I recomend it to others for that purpose!

As per your suggestion:
I personally don’t care for the Blaser S-2 in dangerous game chamberings, because IMO, it is not suited for use on dangerous game, because it automatically de-cocks the rifle if opened for any reason, and if opened for a needed quick re-load in the middle of a charge the rifle must be re-cocked before it can be fired. The same goes for a double rifle with an automatic standard safety. The standard auto safety is better in that situation than having to re-cock the rifle, but still not good. So I will not recommend the Blaser S-2, or any double rifle with a standard auto-safety that cannot be made to operate manually for use on dangerous game! I have zero objections to the Blaser S-2 for non-dangerous game, only when used as a DGR!

Make no mistake I’m not saying the same thing about the Krieghoff double. That system is different. After the K-gun is cocked, no matter when you open it, unless YOU de-cock it, it stays cocked even after being fired the rifle is automatically re-cocked on opening and is ready to fire as soon as it is closed!

Dave why would you want me to recommend a rifle that I didn’t consider a proper platform for the purpose of hunting game that can kill you if you make a mistake because of a feature in it’s system? IMO, it is far better to let folks know the facts than to let them go blindly off with untrue BLUE SKY info, only to find later something they were not made aware of before buying! Having that info doesn't negate them buying the rifle if that is what they want!

I’m not pissing on anyone except the people who designed a dangerous game double rifle that must be re-cocked every time it is opened when it is not a necessary feature for the safety of the people in a hunting party. Just like a standard safety the S-2 can be applied while tracking, and it along with the K-gun is safer than any other rifle. My only objection is that it de-cocks it’s self in the middle of a fight. The K-gun doesn’t de-cock the rifle when opened in the middle of a fight, why should the Blaser?

You may do as you please Dave and get angry if you want, but you will not badger me into recommending that S-2 to anyone who asks me what I think of it!

Mac, pleas accept my apology. I must be getting old. Sometimes I am just a cranky old bastard. Again, I am sorry. Didn't mean to get so pissy.

Dave
I have never figured out what the big deal is about recocking the Blaser.
First of all after you shoot both barrels with all doubles you have to drop them from your shoulder to almost to the waist to reload. In that motion of bringing the gun back to the shoulder the gun is recocked Absolutely not one wasted second. And after watching hundreds of hunters shoot on video 99.9% are looking to see what falls after the second double shot anyways. Who's reloading!!!
In almost all case the PH has emptied his double also. Just watch a few you will see.
It would be a great event if Blaser and some of the other double gun makers had a rapid fire shoot off. Then we would really see where the BS lies.
Well no pony in this sale anymore
Just waiting for my Bradshaw Falling Block Double. I am seeing if Bailey can adapt a 10 shot clip with auto feed to it. Just in case I have to fend off a stampede.

Gentlemen,

Been away for the weekend, out "enjoying" the lake. It was only 117 yesterday and the wind blew about 50. Wonderful.

My personal experience is why I feel like I do about K's, cocking devices and auto safety's. In 2005 I wounded a lion in the Luangwa valley hunting with Alister Norton. We had precious little to follow which turned into nothing. We wound up just walking in a line looking for a lion that we had no idea how badly he was hit.

The cover was grim, visibility at times was 2-3 feet. I had my k and had it on "safe" I knew that when, not if he came I would be tested in my ability to get the rifle from a typical "bird" carry to lower to cock then shoulder to fire.

It all turned out OK, he came for Alister and we both were able to hit him fatally in time.

My point is simply, since that charge I WILL NOT hunt DG with a K gun. My experience is real..not hypothetical..not at charging paper. I do understand those that feel differently, I just don't.

Happy 4TH to all.

Steve

Steve,

At least you were on the water over the weekend. I shot a High Power rifle match on Saturday. It was at least 117 degrees inside of the sweatshirt and leather shooting jacket. It is about time for a trip to Alaska or somewhere cool.

We have not agreed on several things in the past and this is one of them. I DO respect YOUR opinion. You are one of the guys that have been there and done that more than once or twice.

My experience has been different. I feel I am as fast with my Krieghoff as my Boswell and would hunt any dangerous game any where with it. I have put a lot of rounds down the barrel and thousands of dry fires starting from the hip, shooting, reload, shoot again.

On the subject of automatic safeties my Boswell has one. It will take a lot of dry firing and reloading to build the muscle memory to use it for dangerous game, but I feel confident that it will be OK. My shotguns were always pumps or autos until recently so I do not have the background for the auto safety.

The left handed double was delved in to earlier. I actually prefer the right barrel to fire first (I am left handed). If I need to reload after one shot I find it easier on the right barrel. Not much of a difference but it is the only advantage or disadvantage I could think of as to which barrel fires first.

Andy,

As to the writer that confided in you about the Krieghoff I am sure that was Craig Boddington. He tells the exact same story on page 221 of "Safari Rifles II". He also gives the rifle pretty high marks. You just have to be familiar with it.

Their are so many choices, cocking device or traditional safety, single or double trigger, ejectors or extractors, rimmed or rimless, English or otherwise, tastes in engraving, sXS or O/U, and on and on. Settle on one, learn it, and you will be fine.

It is a good thing we do not like the same thing there woiuld not be enough to go around.

Mike,
I will say this, in the video you posted of you cocking your k at the shoulder, mine I just can't, it has 35# spring and I really need to cock it at the waist as Mac states. I am of average strength and just CANNOT do it. Andy can't either as we both tried last time we shot together.

Again, I think the k gun is a extremely well made and great (not good) shooting double, I just personally would rather shoot my Osborne or Armeria de Madrid in DG situations.

How was your High Power match?

Steve

Mike,

Yeah, it was Craig, he told me the story in an email a while back. I wasn't aware it was in the book but I haven't read the whole thing (hope Craig's not reading this ), I need to go look it up. At least if it's in the book he won't mind my telling it here. I also think they are great rifles, especially as far as accuracy and being built like a tank. Steve's is really hard to cock and I wonder if maybe his is an anomaly as others, such as you and Dave, haven't mentioned your rifles requiring a lot of effort to cock. GarBy has told me the same thing, that his does not require a lot of effort to cock.

Like I always say, if we all agreed on everything the world would be a dull place, indeed. Thank the good Lord for free markets and the opportunity to buy what we like.

Sounds like it has been as miserably hot in Louisiana as it has been here in Georgia. Been a long summer already.

Andy

quote:

How was your High Power match?

It was a 60 round 600 yard prone match. I am usually happy in the 580s. I was headed there until I shot a 6. Did not call it, did not see a change in the mirage, I was confused. Split the difference on sight adjustment and shot a 9 out of the other side. Hurts to lose 5 points like that.

Andy,

Mrs Mike is in Statesboro as I write this visiting family. And it has been miserably hot, that is why I am in front of the computer and not outside.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Andy,

Mrs Mike is in Statesboro as I write this visiting family. And it has been miserably hot, that is why I am in front of the computer and not outside.

It has been 90+ and up to as much as 100 with high humidity every day for about the past 6 weeks with no relief in sight. I've been to Louisiana and know it gets even worse there. I'm ready for fall, this heat is tiresome. At least you got out and were able to do some shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by elk88101:
Dave
I have never figured out what the big deal is about recocking the Blaser.
First of all after you shoot both barrels with all doubles you have to drop them from your shoulder to almost to the waist to reload. In that motion of bringing the gun back to the shoulder the gun is recocked Absolutely not one wasted second.

Elk I know this post quoted here was to Dave, but I need to make something clear to you! My objection to the system of the S-2 or the auto safety does involve time, but that is not the only thing that bothers me about it. Either of these features simply installs something into the system that is not necessary for the protection of the people in the party. With the S-2 rifle if the rifle is manually de-cocked it would be far safer to the crew than the loaded rifle with a regular safety, and has no facility that RE-COCKS the rifle when opened durring a fight like all other double rifles. The K-gun has the same basic de-cocking system yet it doesn’t de-cock the rifle in mid fight. This auto feature on the S-2 is simply not needed to make the rifle safe for people, and if forgotten in a fight is DANGEROUS to the people in the party. If first two rounds have hit him and he is still coming what is safe about a system that de-cocks the rifle? It does present something that is not needed but can be forgotten at a very critical time.

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And after watching hundreds of hunters shoot on video 99.9% are looking to see what falls after the second double shot anyways. Who's reloading!!!

Who’s re-loading???? If the first two do not stop something coming at YOU I think it will be YOU that is re-loading, and if you are armed with a Blaser S-2, or a double rifle with an auto safety, you better not forget to re-cock the S2, or disengage the safety on the auto safety double before he gets to you! No matter the rifle type if it runs dry and the game is still on his feet and still coming anyone who is not re-charging that rifle is a fool! And I don’t take my double rifle down to my waist to re-load it for a fast re-load! Because you see people do things on a film does that mean you should do the same?

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In almost all case the PH has emptied his double also. Just watch a few you will see.
It would be a great event if Blaser and some of the other double gun makers had a rapid fire shoot off. Then we would really see where the BS lies.

Every PH I've hunted with when there is eve a lull in the fight is yelling "RE-LOAD, RE-LOAD!" The shoot offs have been done many times down at Julif, Texas at the Hoot and Shoot. We have all types shooting on that timed firing line. Nobody is turned away from the shoot regardless of how their doubles are set up! It is a combination of time, and score with everyone individually timed with digital timers, and score on the target counted!

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Well no pony in this sale anymore
Just waiting for my Bradshaw Falling Block Double. I am seeing if Bailey can adapt a 10 shot clip with auto feed to it. Just in case I have to fend off a stampede.

As long as you are assigning BS, think about this! If the objection to auto safeties, and even more so a rifle that DE-COCKS it’s self on opening is of no consequence, then why is it that every maker of double rifle in the world regards an auto safety a draw-back on dangerous game doubles and do not install them on those rifles unless the customer demands it? In fact they discourage it!

If you are paying the bill you get what you want, but that doesn’t always make what you want a good idea. As far as I know Blaser is the only double that de-cocks the rifle on opening, and has no facility for the rifle to re-cock it’s self on opening.

Bradshaw builds a fine rifle, and I have looked them over pretty well, and I’ll be willing to bet my bottom dollar none of his rifles will de-cock it’s self on opening for any reason, and will re-cock it’s self when opened for any reason.

If you are asking him for an auto safety IMO that would be a mistake but I’ not paying for your rifle or hunting with it. As I said earlier, every man who slaps his dollars down for a double rifle should have what he wants in, or on it, because he is paying the bill and that fact entitles him to buy his own mistakes!

Braggin or complainin? really doesn't matter when its this dang hot

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Originally posted by Nganga:


Braggin or complainin? really doesn't matter when its this dang hot

It get a lot hotter than that in Zambia and their beef is a lot better than the crap you have in AZ so quit yer whinin'.

MacD37

Slow down
I don’t give a crap if you like a de-cocking device or auto safty or not
I guess to each his own and what you are use to.
So your argument is its the gun that’s un safe when you have to cock it or is it the ignorant shooter that cant operate the gun, Or is the gun maker? Hells Bells maybe its all three.
I am confused.
I have read stories of guy's with doubles that swore they reloaded and were dry firing and the shells were on the ground. I guess the dangerous animals charging can do many things to people.
These arguments always end up as the guy with the double has to save the day with the raging charging animal and he needs to reload and fire faster than anyone else. After 12 safaris an 6 being dangerous game and charging elephants and all I have never found that to be the case.
Maybe the saving grace to all this is, all hunters better be much better shooters with the shot placement or stay home because its inevitable they will get some one killed.
Larry

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Originally posted by Cane Rat:

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Originally posted by Nganga:


Braggin or complainin? really doesn't matter when its this dang hot

It get a lot hotter than that in Zambia and their beef is a lot better than the crap you have in AZ so quit yer whinin'.

This thread is long overdue for mjines to post his elephant charge video yet again for the umpteenth time.