Well, the double rifle bug has bit.

After 3 buff and 1 ele with my bolt rifles, I think its time. I've settled on a 470, as I'm not really bothered by my 416 Rigby or 450 Dakota, and I plan on more buff and at least one more ele in the future.

I'm looking for opinions on the best rifle to look for, at $10k or less, used.

I am a double gun(sxs)bird hunter with several guns..12 through 28ga, so I know the feel of a decent shotgun. Hopefully that can translate into selecting a double rifle....??
Thanks
Bob

quote:

Originally posted by bobgrow:
Well, the double rifle bug has bit.

After 3 buff and 1 ele with my bolt rifles, I think its time. I've settled on a 470, as I'm not really bothered by my 416 Rigby or 450 Dakota, and I plan on more buff and at least one more ele in the future.

I'm looking for opinions on the best rifle to look for, at $10k or less, used.

I am a double gun(sxs)bird hunter with several guns..12 through 28ga, so I know the feel of a decent shotgun. Hopefully that can translate into selecting a double rifle....??
Thanks
Bob

First, I would say a double rifle and a double shotgun cannot be compared; they are totally different animals. The only time they are comparable would be at very close range where with the DR, your sights are used almost as if bird hunting; quick pointing focused on the front bead. #2 Get a double rifle that fits; when you mount it you are looking down the proper sight line, quickly. #3 Practice, practice, practice; until recoil becomes a non-issue, and aiming becomes second nature. Do not practice from a bench unless obtaining an initial zero; and then never rest the gun on anything other than your own hand. I'll leave the rest for the real experts on Africa. Welcome to the DR club, you'll never go back. Mike

Hello Bob

With a budget of $10K or less, I would choose a Merkel.

For a couple $K more, you can get a basic Verney-Carron made to fit and a much better "value" IMO.

FYI, I personally would not choose a .470. In the same class, I would choose a .450 3 1/4", a true classic!

Just my $.02.

Best of luck!

I'm with Don thought I'd say a Merkel in 500 Nitro Express like this one:

Merkel 500NE at good price

That particular 500 is a great deal and of course if you want a Verney-Carron, Ken is the guy with whom to deal anyway.

It's a terrible disease that you have contracted and the only treatment is buckets of $$$.

Bob, you're in Illinois, so visiting Ken at Kebco would be a stretch. That being said, you can visit any higher-end gunshop (Cabelas, Bass Pro, etc)and ask to handle as many DRs as you can. One will feel "right". In that $$$ range, which will provide you with solid working guns, the choices would be Merkel, Chapuis, and Verney-Carron. Guys here that have bought the Sabatti doubles being sold by Cabelas seem to like them, at about $5,500 for an ejector model, $5,000 for an extractor. I loved the 3 or 4 Merkels I've owned, but to each his own. If you find something you like, but the price is too high, search the used markets on Gun Broker, Guns International, and others. Lots of "low mileage" DRs out there. Take your time ...it's a labor of love!

Bob
Ive got my 470 listed here on AR in the classified as of yesterday. It fits your price range. Take a peek at it.

Can someone post the link to the post for me (& Bob)? Im on phone internet right now.. thanks in advance!

Bob a 450 3.25 inch is the way to go. First off you know how many 458 bullets are available to practice with. Brass is cheap. You will be in for a lot of fun shooting.
Those VC rifles are very nice. Yes it would be in your price range.
I shoot a 450#2.

Mike

Don't forget the Sabattis. The ones I've seen have been well made.

Rusty

Thanks for the good advice...any opinions on the K rifles?
Bob

They are all a bit different. The K guns tend to have butt stocks with less drop so, to me, they kick a lot less.

Buying a 450 instead of a 470 will just increase the barrel weight, which for me is not good.

A 500 is like a loaded up Lott, and in a typically constructed double rifle will kick worse, which for a sissy like me is not a good thing. If you can handle the weight, though, a 500 can be loaded up with lead and recoil reducers.

And the 470 will get it done, and always has.

bob

do consider the 450 ne as it does what the 470 does and the ammunition is a lot cheaper.

the merkel, the K-gun, the heym, the V-C, the chapuis etc. are all good guns in your price bracket.

try to handle a few to see which style you think will work best for you ie. the continential vs. the british style

the weight is placed differently in the two styles and both are good for one thing not so good for the other, and you are the only one that can deside which will work for you.

the step up to the 500 NE is not such a big step especially when you allready shoots large caliber rifles, do consider that one as well.

fit is good, but the right mounting technic is better as that will help you use your gun and everybody elses as well

best

peter

Mr. Stewart

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Buying a 450 instead of a 470 will just increase the barrel weight, which for me is not good.

What on earth do you mean by this. ? are you talking about a specific make please say so, if not this is complete BS

quote:

A 500 is like a loaded up Lott, and in a typically constructed double rifle will kick worse, which for a sissy like me is not a good thing. If you can handle the weight, though, a 500 can be loaded up with lead and recoil reducers.

normaly a 450NE or a 470 NE will weigh around 10-11 pounds.

A well constructed 500 NE will weigh at least 12 pounds.

there is good reason for the gunmakers, to make them like this.

best regards

peter

Bob

First don't make your choice based on the cost of factory ammo. You will have to reload ( it s not that hard and is fun to do) to get the best out of your double and to shoot it enough to learn it.

If you want a stopper go 470 or 500 if you can handle the recoiland are willing to learn to shoot a heavy rifle. If you want a pleasent rifle to shoot and some thing that will kill anything walks go 450-400. The 450-400 will out penatrate the 450 and 470 by just a little from what I have read and been told. When you get up over 470 you see a lot more down range damage. I have shot large hogs with my 470, it does a lot more damage than my 458 or 93x74. When useing solids or norfork cup points it is even more noticable. We were shooting 1/2 gallon water jugs at 25 yards at the hoot and shoot big diferrence in how the jugs come apart with a 470 or a 500 than with a 450 or a 400.

Most new doubles will need trigger work ,some need sight work and most would benifit from some recoil relief sanded into the stock with some minor fitting work.


I have a nice used 470 for sale look at your pm's.

JD

Peter,

Every off-the-shelf double I have seen uses a standard barrel blank in which a hole is drilled. Hence, the larger the caliber the less the barrel weight.

Hence a 10 lb. 470 Sabatti winds up as a 9 and a half pound 500.

Become aware before saying it is BS!!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Peter,

Every off-the-shelf double I have seen uses a standard barrel blank in which a hole is drilled. Hence, the larger the caliber the less the barrel weight.

Hence a 10 lb. 470 Sabatti winds up as a 9 and a half pound 500.

Become aware before saying it is BS!!

What Will says above is true of all the "OFF THE SHELF" double rifles I've owned, or handled.
The Merkel, for instance, the 500NE weighs 10.5 pounds, while the 470NE Merkel weighs 11.3 pounds. As Will says the barrel's outside profiles are the same in both rifles, with the only difference being the size of the chamber and bore being larger for the larger chambering.

With the proper recoil pad, and length of pull, though the 500NE exhibits more felt recoil than the 470NE it is not obtrusive IMO! Even if the weighed the same there would still be a difference in the way they balanced, and recoiled. I don't find a 10.5 500NE double to be that bad, and if you are a hunter of elephant you are going to carry that rifle a hell of a lot more than you are going to shoot it.

The only way to get a perfectly balanced, and weighted double rifle is to have it made to order. The "one size fits all" simply cannot fit everyone, and custom fitting cost money. If your budget is of the "OFF THE SHELF" size, then there will be concessions made that you will simply have to live with! Buy the one that fits YOU best, in the chambering you want, and make the changes that you need to get the best from that rifle!

In any case what ever you choose, use it in good health, and welcome to the DRSS!

...................... ...................

Have to agree with Mac.
Whatever brand you choose have it built to fit you. Proper fit is more important than anything else.
Either that or find a outstanding buy on a used rifle and plan to have it restocked.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Peter,

Every off-the-shelf double I have seen uses a standard barrel blank in which a hole is drilled. Hence, the larger the caliber the less the barrel weight.

Hence a 10 lb. 470 Sabatti winds up as a 9 and a half pound 500.

Become aware before saying it is BS!!

will

i am aware of the sabatti situation and have a hard time wrapping my mind around just that, when they make the 450/400 and the 450 in perfect weight, i have not encountered anything else, and even my own off the self rifles (C-class) still have the correct weight for caliber, if i can do it, i know the others can as well

but i must say that the sabatti is the only maker in the below 10.000,-$ class that i have notished doing this.

but one maker does not a general flaw make

best

peter

Not to sound like a sales rep, but you can get a Searcy field grade made to fit you and still be close to your price parameters.....and he's here in the US.

quote:

Originally posted by degoins:
Not to sound like a sales rep, but you can get a Searcy field grade made to fit you and still be close to your price parameters.....and he's here in the US.

You can find used merkel in great shape for 7k, and chapris for just a little more, I think that butch is at 10.5 or 11k which is still a good deal f you can wait.

JD

Thanks for the viewpoints and pm(s)today, you guys provided some insights that weren't on my list....I'll be following up, though a little slowly as work(money)increased surprisingly today.
Bob

Of course you could buy a new Sabatti 500 or 470 NE w/ejectors for $5,500 from Cabela's. Send it to J. J. Perodeau at Champlin and have him install two mercury recoil reducers for added weight and recoil reduction, do a trigger job, replace the recoil pad, change the front sight; all for around $650. Add shipping fees of maybe $150 to get it around and back.

Total cost: <$6,500.00

Use the saved $3,500+ for ammo, reloading components, sight systems, a DR soft case and ???; or pay for a coach ticket to Africa and do your Elephant safari; or pay for a tuskless Ele quota tag.

I did.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Of course you could buy a new Sabatti 500 or 470 NE w/ejectors for $5,500 from Cabela's... and spend the change on hunting in africa.

Hello all from Abuja, Nigeria (I happen to be here on work at the moment)! On a related note:

I am a expat yank living in the UK these past dozen years working for the US DOD. Since retiring from the military I have taken up hunting again and am looking to hunt DG in Africa. I have a Hummer H1 desert racer that I compete in Dakar type rally racing in North Africa and have one more race this March. Once that is done, the big girl goes up for sale and when she does, there is a double rifle with my name on it!

I looked up the Sabatti homepage in Italiano and think the next time I am in Italy I will pop in to the factory. I would have to imagine that buying one there would be shedloads cheaper than trying to buy one at Cabela's and importing it back to the UK (yes, I do have a UK firearms license and, yes, there are ridiculus rules!!) I am leaning towards the 450-400. You can buy the same gun in flanged .375 H&H in Europe as well.

Would it be smarter to get the DR in 375 for dual use on DG/bigger plains game or get the 450-400 and bring a 30-06 for kudu/gemsbok, etc.??

Btw, I am scheduled to be in Gabarone, Botswana for work all of January. Might just have to see if I can slip a safari in on the end of it and let somebody else pay for my flights!! If you have any suggestions on Bots, let me know (PM if you want so as not to totally hijack this thread)

Kindest regards,

I agree with the comment that a Searcy Field Grade may be worth serious consideration. In that regard, there are used Searcy Field Grades out there that should fall into your price range. It may be hard to find one, but if you do, Butch Sarcy will personally make sure you are happy with one of his rifles.
As to caliber, I was told that the 470 NE is the most widely sought after caliber and if you ever need to trade up, that caliber may be easier to work into another deal.

Gents....thanks for the inputs on this thread, plus I've been following the thread on ranking of doubles.

I've done it....puchased a Chapuis 470 NE from a fellow AR member.

I look forward to working/hunting with this rifle, but I'm still an owner of two great bolt guns (416 Rigby;450 Dakota)...those will pass on eventually to my son & son-in-law.

Bob

Bob,

Great choice! I own a Chapuis .470 and am very pleased with it. In fact, I'm taking it to Zim next week for some Buffalo hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana91:
Bob,

Great choice! I own a Chapuis .470 and am very pleased with it. In fact, I'm taking it to Zim next week for some Buffalo hunting.

GOOD HUNTING ! !

I got the bug some years back. I shopped around and made a decision as to what gun I wanted. I looked at the K gun, Merkels, Chapuis, Heym, and tried to located a Searcy but they were scarce. The Heym fit me the best. I came across a GREAT deal on a 470 in the price category you described however I was very patient.
Have been very happy since then. Just waiting to be contacted by Butch Searcy on my winning ticket for the 450 / 400 Classic on the horizon!


EZ