Hello to all! I'm a new member here, having posted mostly on campfire previously. I was hoping for some input on recoil that I could not find reading previous posts:
I am considering a DR (Searcy or Heim) and am unlikely to find one to shoot before placing an order. I have a 416 Rigby (10.5#) and load 400gr rounds with 102gr H4831. If I am confortable with this, how does a 10.5# 450 or 470 compare in terms of recoil?

I just got my Searcy Classic 470NE last week. I took it to the range and put 12 rounds through it from a sitting position at the bench. It didn't hurt me at all - in fact after the 6th shot I took off my past recoil pad and kept shooting. My gun weighs 10-1/2 lbs and I was shooting 500gr Woodleigh soft points over 106grs of IMR-4831 (regulation load). However, 12 rounds was enough shooting for one sitting down session.

I also shoot/hunt with a 375H&H and 416 Rigby. Here is how I see the recoil comparison between the 375H&H (300gr bullet), 416 Rigby (400 gr bullet) and 470NE (500gr bullet).

375H&H: big push, recoil is slow enough that you can just roll with it.

416 Rigby: recoil is stiff and sharp - gun comes back a lot faster than the 375H&H and there is a lot more of it.

470NE: feels like there is more recoil than the 416 Rigby, but it doesn't come back as fast. I think the key is in the stock design. My Searcy was built for me. There is some cast to the stock, so your shooting eye lines up over the center rib. This stock cast also helps to move the recoil away from your face. Also the recoil pad is wider than on my 416 and this helps to spread out the recoil over a larger area.

Bottom Line: If you can shoot a 416 Rigby you will not have any problem with a 470NE - especially if the gun fit's you.

I haven't had a chance to shoot anything with my 470NE yet, but it sure was working over the dirt back stop down range - it was impressive!

Thanks MHC! I knew mathmatically the 470 has a higher recoil number but the sharpness of it was exactly what I was after. I very much appreciate the info.

-lefty

UtahLefty,

I'd have to agree that the .470 is a bigger push than the .416 Rigby. Loading the .470 NE with RL-15 and a filler to 2150 fps rather than with IMR 4831 to 2250 fps really does reduce the recoil significantly.

U.L. - Try to "private message" 500 Grains, he's in UTAH I think.

BigFive - thanks for the tip. I've Pm'd and I'll wait to hear...

the 470 is significantly more FELT recoil than a 416, but not HUGELY.. .the 450 is about the same...

jeffe

U.L.

My pleasure, perhaps you and "Dan" can set up a meeting.

UL,

I have a 416 Rigby and a 470 NE.

The Rigby weighs in at 9.5 pounds loaded and is a pleasure to shoot, even off the bench. Stock design is great - Mauser Magnum 98.

I also have a Heym 470 NE that weighs in at under 10 pounds (About 9.5). Like jeffe said, there is a definite increase in recoil. I have shot other guys 10.5 and 11 pounders, and the increased weight helps, but it is still more recoil.

I don't notice recoil when hunting, and the lower weight of the Heym helps in the field. That said, you can develop bad habits at the range, which is why I am not afraid to use the PAST or anything else that prevents developing a flinch because of recoil.

Using the Heym at the range, I use a PAST recoil pad, which works very well. Still, you aren't going to blow through 40 rounds at one sitting with the 470.

The 450 is noticeably less recoil than the 470, but the one I shot was about 11 pounds or so.

If you can make a DRSS shoot before maiing a firm decision you will see plenty of 450's and 470's in different weights and by different makers. At the August shoot, there were a couple of Heym's, a couple of Krieghoffs, Searcy, Merkels, and oh yeah, some British trash as well (sorry Mark, couldn't resist)

Quote,
how does a 10.5# 450 or 470 compare in terms of recoil?[/QUOTE]

This is a good question as Heym make both the 450 no2 and the 470NE.
I would also like the answer to this one.
Not too sure on the availability on 450 Cases but a great bonus with the 470 is that Norma makes Cases for it.
OZHUNTER

a truth you will learn about recoil, some sooner , others later, is that the recoil from a necked down case is always sharper/harder than from a straight taper case.

the big nitro calibers give a big push. you roll with it and hardly feel anything.

your 416, 460 weatherby and all necked cases will give you a slap - rightly deserved - for using such a thing when you could have started out with a nice straight case to begin with !

NEWS FLASH FOR OZ HUNTER

YOU CAN GET ALL THE 450 BRASS YOU NEED ANY STYLE , RIGHT AT HOME, FROM BERTRAM BRASS !!!

AND THE BULLETS TOO FROM WOODLEIGH

AND YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE OUT IN THE BUSH !

Most of us who have used Bertram brass will do anything to avoid it due to poor quality control.

quote:

Posts: 8 | Location: Northern Utah | Registered: 25 November 2006

You can get Jamison brass in 450 He bought the bell machinery. I have a searcy 450 on the way will be here in August. I'm a lefty and live in Northern Utah also. You'll have a chance to shoot it if you like. Have already bought brass, woodleighs 480 gr etc. I'm ready.

I have 2 416 Rigby's a custom CZ550 and a Ruger RSM with magnaport. Also just sold my Merkel 470. I can't really distinguish any perceivable difference with the CZ and the Merkel when fired offhand. The Ruger is definitely light in recoil. From the bench they also feel about the same and I do not like to fire too many rounds from the bench. Here again the Ruger is not unpleasant to shoot from bench. I don't mind shooting any of the 3 rifles offhand for extended periods. Cost usually curtails my shooting of these Calibers more than discomfort.

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
a truth you will learn about recoil, some sooner , others later, is that the recoil from a necked down case is always sharper/harder than from a straight taper case.

the big nitro calibers give a big push. you roll with it and hardly feel anything.

your 416, 460 weatherby and all necked cases will give you a slap - rightly deserved - for using such a thing when you could have started out with a nice straight case to begin with !

Too silly to have ever even been an old wives' tale.

Bertram brass is among the worst there's ever been. I've had some that couldn't be made to work at all.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Driftwood, August you say? I may have to take you up on that! I'm arranging now to shoot a few guns with a dealer in SLC next week as I'd like to place an order this month if I'm ever going to! I'll report back my impressions (A lefty 470 is reported to be available to shoot) and keep me updated on your delivery!
Thanks, lefty

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
a truth you will learn about recoil, some sooner , others later, is that the recoil from a necked down case is always sharper/harder than from a straight taper case.

the big nitro calibers give a big push. you roll with it and hardly feel anything.

your 416, 460 weatherby and all necked cases will give you a slap - rightly deserved - for using such a thing when you could have started out with a nice straight case to begin with !

okay.. tom, you spoiling for a fight?

recoil between the SAME calibers, in the SAME stock design, going the sAME speed, the PRESSURE that they are loaded to can make a difference in felt recol, as well as the amount of powder burnt.

for example, assume you have a 9.5# 416 taylor, and an identical rifle in 416 rem (or rigby, it doesn't matter)

shoot them both at 2350

the taylor has less felt recoil.

Load a 416 weatherby to their (amazing) pressure levels, and it makes a 458 lott seem mild.

bertram brass is soft soft soft, you can generally deform it by hand pressure. it STICKS in chambers

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
NEWS FLASH FOR OZ HUNTER

YOU CAN GET ALL THE 450 BRASS YOU NEED ANY STYLE , RIGHT AT HOME, FROM BERTRAM BRASS !!!

AND THE BULLETS TOO FROM WOODLEIGH

AND YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE OUT IN THE BUSH !

................................................

tomo577,
Yes I know about Bertram Brass but I also know I would not touch the stuff...period
(Have seen problems with this brand)
Woodleighs not a problem.
Do you know if Hornerber makes the 450NE cases?
ozhunter

quote:

Bertram brass is among the worst there's ever been.

You guys have got to stop living in the past. Admittedly, Bertram had quality control issues decades ago, and exported quite a lot of rubbish to the USA maybe 15 years ago by all accounts, but his current production is fine. He makes a number of calibres for Kynamco. I load plenty of Bertram brass, and shoot volumes of .400 and .470 NE, with no problems whatsoever.

Some of the worst NE brass I've had to tolerate was made by BELL, even had a couple with an incomplete seam right down one side!

Admittedly it is necessary to de-burr the flash-holes on Bertram brass, but I do that with all brands, so that's no penalty.

...and as for deforming the case-body with hand-pressure, thats just pure malicious bullshit. Clearly, some posters entertain the view that if its not made in the US, it must be 'U.S.' !
Those of us with a bit more savvy are simply getting on with it, enjoying relatively cheap, available Bertram cases, and going hunting!

I have used 2 different calibres of Bertram Brass. In my 450/400 3 1/4" I have some cases that have been loaded 4 or 5 times. They still are ok.

However in my 450 No2 I have some Bertram brass that has been loaded at least 20 times with full power loads and I have het to lose a case.

I never expected it to last that long so I did not keep an accurate count. I did a test of 20 cases they have been fired 7 times now and still look new.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I have used 2 different calibres of Bertram Brass. In my 450/400 3 1/4" I have some cases that have been loaded 4 or 5 times. They still are ok.

However in my 450 No2 I have some Bertram brass that has been loaded at least 20 times with full power loads and I have het to lose a case.

I never expected it to last that long so I did not keep an accurate count. I did a test of 20 cases they have been fired 7 times now and still look new.

Doesn't the 450 No. 2 have a lower chamber pressure?? Would that explain the better brass life? This would seem like a really nice chambering.

quote:

Originally posted by Marrakai:

quote:

Bertram brass is among the worst there's ever been.

You guys have got to stop living in the past. Admittedly, Bertram had quality control issues decades ago, and exported quite a lot of rubbish to the USA maybe 15 years ago by all accounts, but his current production is fine. He makes a number of calibres for Kynamco. I load plenty of Bertram brass, and shoot volumes of .400 and .470 NE, with no problems whatsoever.

Some of the worst NE brass I've had to tolerate was made by BELL, even had a couple with an incomplete seam right down one side!

Admittedly it is necessary to de-burr the flash-holes on Bertram brass, but I do that with all brands, so that's no penalty.

...and as for deforming the case-body with hand-pressure, thats just pure malicious bullshit. Clearly, some posters entertain the view that if its not made in the US, it must be 'U.S.' !
Those of us with a bit more savvy are simply getting on with it, enjoying relatively cheap, available Bertram cases, and going hunting!

Nothing malicious in it. I still have the remnants of a couple boxes of Bertram .400/.350 brass that I had complete case head separations with on the second loading. I have two new boxes of .400/.360 brass that couldn't be made to work at all. Perhaps they're exporting their seconds to the US. No matter, it's still junk.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Marraki,

How about this (all in the past 5 years, not 'decades ago'):

470 NE brass from Bertram with the flash holes so far off to one side that I could not even decap them using a die. Actually broke my decapping stem trying.

585 Nyati brass from Bertram - too soft. Did not hold the bullet well. Improved after multiple reloadings.

600 NE brass from Bertram - too big to chamber, and could not be sized small enough to chamber.

500 NE brass from Bertram - rims too thick so rifle would not close.

I think this is enough experience with Bertram Brass to qualify me to offer comments on my experience. I would recommend that everyone avoid Bertram Brass if there is brass available from any other source.