The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles Those Crappy Sabatti doubles, again!Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
A lot of guys have been asking me questions, by PM, about the Sabatti doubles, now that Cabelas has been lowering the prices. On another gun forum, I saw several guys who commented on ones they bought, so I thought that I would list what they had to say, for you all to see. Some of you may find it interesting: Posting may be from more than one posting, combined, and modified slightly, only to make sense: Rastaman: “After shooting 6 boxes of Hornady .450/.400 shells, regulation is still good; it is performing well. Starting to wonder if criticism is undeserved, or if I just got lucky with a good version.” Gatlingman: “Owned a .500; gave it to my PH who uses it daily, and he loves it. They make a very fine double for half the cost of anyone else.” Arinjit: “ I own a Sabatti .470 and love it. It groups about 3/4” at 50 yards.” anysse: “New Sabatti, regulated properly; nicely priced.” Bwanabob: “Sabatti .450 NE with factory Hornady ammo, gun will print both barrels into 1.5” at 50 yards, so who says Sabatti doubles don't shoot? I have owned a number of doubles over the years & only double I owned that shot that well was a Chapuis .470 which cost me 3 times the price.” He also bought a .450 NE Sabatti to replace his defunct Merkel 140A, .500 (he never got it to shoot well),” BuffBuster: “I have a .470 Sabatti; it is also a shooter; I love it. “ AZDAVE: “My .450 is also a great shooter. Took a nice zebra at 92 meters, and a monster warthog. Factory Hornady rounds, 2R, 2L into 3.5 inches at 100 meters.” | ||
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That's good to see and they are the good one's. What about the not so good one's that have been returned. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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And your point? They also mad a bunch of Corvairs and Pintos. Not all of them burst into flames or crashed.. But it's good to know that the possibility !existed before you plunked down your long green NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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What about them? I think every gun manufacturer have had bad guns returned, no? | |||
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I very much doubt at the percentage that Sabatti have had returns. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Maybe they finally got the message and hired a real regulator! We can only hope! .....................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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What % have been returned ? Can you site some real numbers, or are we just bashing again? I mean by AR numbers, there have probably been more Chapuis with regulation issues owned than Sabattis. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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The interesting thing about double or custom rifles is very few people will admit if they purchased a new one and had problems with it. Guess it has to do with ego and spending a lot of money. Plus the owner is worried if they say anything bad about it then they can't sell it down the road. Then they are concerned if they report any problems the builder or their rep might get pissed at them for being vocal. For the current price I would give a Sabatti a try if they made a lefty. The only nagging thought is the lack of customer service by EAA. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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__________________________ Yes, that should be a serious concern, if you are one who is dependent on customer service, especially from EAA. However, for those who own great classic old British, German, or other doubles, for example, customer service is not existent too. | |||
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Not knowing the actual numbers, I very much doubt that it is more than the "established" manufacturers, | |||
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I somehow doubt that Heym, Merkel, Chapuis get as many returns as Sabatti / Cabelas. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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I've been a Merkel dealer for over 10 years now, and I am not aware of any Merkel double rifles that have been returned for a refund. There have been a couple where ejectors needed to be timed or triggers adjusted, and a couple that reportedly doubled (usually user fault), but none returned for refunds. I would say the same would be true for Heym, VC, and Chapuis. JP Sauer Drilling 12x12x9.3x72 David Murray Scottish Hammer 12 Bore Alex Henry 500/450 Double Rifle Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock 6.5x55 Steyr Classic Mannlicher Fullstock .30-06 Walther PPQ H2 9mm Walther PPS M2 Cogswell & Harrison Hammer 12 Bore Damascus And Too Many More | |||
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And we know of the odd Chapuis return for re regulation / putting the rib back on - ? user fault ? I know of the odd Merkel, mine included that needed adjusting.. And I think every company would have one or two being returned for working on but in the sheer numbers and the fact that people got refunds, I doubt any came close to the numbers of Sabatti's. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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I would likely buy a 9.3x74 at the reduced price. However, I would like to know the bores were clean and could find one. There are very few remaining (none in 9.3) on the website. I meant to be DSC Member...bad typing skills. Marcus Cady DRSS | |||
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How can you make such a statement, with nothing but a guess for numbers though? Looking at the number of posters here who've had issues with getting their Chapuis to shoot, there seem to be more posters who've had fickle guns they couldn't get to shoot, than there have been shooters who got improperly regulated Sabatti's..... Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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AK-Stick, If you want % of anything to determine which has the most of anything, you first have to ask yourself, How many, in this case, units are in each group. This is only a guess but I would say there are at least ten times as many people here who own Chapuis, or Merkel,or just about any other brand you can name, than there are Sabatti owners. Do you think for a minute that either of those brands have 10 times the need for all repairs as do Sabatti rifles? My guess is that they are nowhere near the % of either of those brands needing ALL types of repairs as Sabatti does for REGULATION ALONE! As I said above that is just a guess, but when you consider the numbers of those brands and the numbers of Sabattis I think you will find the % of each side of the debate needing repairs I don't think you will get the answer you think you will! Don't you think that is a legitimate comparison? .............................................................Just something to think about in your spare time!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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And conversely, if you take the initial regulation issue out of the picture, my guess is that there would be far fewer Sabatti's needing repairs than other doubles (by a simple numbers game) .... All of this guessing is getting stupid. I struggle to understand why so many folks get so wound up over the current Sabattis, which apparently don't have the muzzle/regulation issue? It's still hardly a high-end double, so why are we comparing them to companies that sell their guns for much more and allegedly offer outstanding customer service? These Sabattis appear to be perfectly fine for most folks who don't want to drop a bunch of benjamins on a gun they don't utilize frequently. Look, if you can buy a new Sabatti in any nitro express caliber without any regulation issues for less than $4k, it's a really good deal. If you're paying damn near $6k on one, then it's probably not such a good deal. It's not rocket science. Just freaking move on .... | |||
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The FACT is, not a guess, the problem with the Sabatti is the whole percentage of the need for repairs is REGULATION, or in IOW, the lack there of the same! The other FACT is REGULATION is the hart of any double rifle regardless of make! REGULATION is where quality should start, not finish, and is the absolute worse place to try to cut cost. All makes have things that need attention over time, but are rarely a problem with having a regulation problem right out of the makers shipping box! I would venture one guess here! I suspect that most re-regulation of most other makes are because they were regulated first properly, but for iron sights only. The buyer decides he wants to mount a scope,or wants to use a different weight bullet and finds the rifle will not regulate with the scope attached or with the load he wants to use. He then sends it back, or takes it to JJ for re-regulation with the scope attached or for his load. The above is not a name make problem but simply a fact that anything that changes the way a double rifle's direction of muzzle flip under recoil will negatively effect regulation. This is not the makers mistake, but a personal choice of the buyer. I have owned over 30 double rifles, everything from brand new to doubles as old as over 100 years old, and have only had ONE that needed to be re-regulated, and that was because it was not regulated properly by the maker. That rifle is a Winchester Grand European chambered for 9.3X74R that was made in Japan by a SHOTGUN maker, and regulated on a JIG. Anyone who has any experience with the Winchester double rifles knows they were not regulated properly, and ALL show poor regulation. They can be re-regulated but it is more costly that it is to re-regulate a Sabatti, because the Winchester had the wedges BRAZED in on a JIG, instead of trial and error with soft solder. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Another fine example of a maker taking short cuts and / or not knowing that they were doing. I don't know of one Winny O/U in Australia that hasn't been / wasn't re regulated. A gunsmith in Darwin did quite a few and they were great guns once done. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Unlike the US, Aust is a small shooting community where you have few people and even fewer shooters, concentration of like minded shooters - Big Game Rifle club - and a few key people who are central to the whole debate - Graeme Wright etc. An example - a bloke buys a Sabatti, having problems getting it to shoot straight, gets onto NitroEpress.com and posts his first post asking for help. BGRC in Vic where 3 new Sabatti's all have regulation rib issues. I am not basing my info just on AR, in fact I recognise the fact that AR is only a part of US sales. I It is easier to hear about things here in Aus, especially when you know a fair few of the people involved and Woodleigh, plus the guy who makes Hydro's etc etc. Oh, and the importer ! So if you take Aust as an example, it is likely that this is a good representation of the rest of the world - and it doesn't look good on a percentage basis. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Mac: I think you're missing my point. We all know about the initial regulation problems. You've written a couple of treatises on it. But if you take that initial regulation out of the picture, and if the newer Sabattis are sufficiently regulated, then a comparison between frequency of returns is not necessarily different than any other maker .... | |||
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At this stage, I would say Rib problems seem to be more evident on Sabattis than other makers. Rib problems as in rib separating or barrel separating apart. I know the previous importer of Merkel's never had many problems here in Aus and the gunsmith who did any warranty work the same. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Good to know - time will tell for sure. But I still think for the average guy who doesn't want to spend a bunch of money on a NE double and isn't ever going to shoot thousands of rounds, the $4k Sabattis are a nice way to get in the game and have a blast doing it. Take a look at some of the trophy photos from the guys that have successfully used their Sabattis on safari. Those guns allowed those guys to practice for and go on a double rifle safari. That's pretty awesome, and I'm really happy for them. $4k doesn't buy you a lot these days, much less a Heym or a Searcy, but that's a really fair price for the Sabatti and the experience those African hunters got out of the deal. | |||
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Agree. And I wish more would buy DR's and get into them, just wish they / we could do it with confidence. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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And as I said, just off of the owners in this forum who've reported issues, we've seen far, far more Chapuis 9.3' with regulation issues than we've seen Sabatti's that needed work. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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"just off of the owners in this forum who've reported issues, we've seen far, far more Chapuis 9.3' with regulation issues " AK I have never had that impression. Can you list them ? Or was this a while ago ? Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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I think he's talking about trying to add a scope. If so, there have been plenty of posts on this, and I personally know a forum member that went through dealing with this. I understand the drop makes those particular guns a pain to shoot with open sights, but they are much more comfortable with a scope. Unfortunately, they seem to be much more fickle than many other doubles when you add the scope and often require reregulation. | |||
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Well if you add a scope after buying, ordering and the gun needs re regulating, that is not the guns fault. might be more "fickle" but even Holland will say putting a scope on can change regulation. Agree re comfortable, the stocks are way too low IMHO. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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I must of missed the Chapuis owners complaining. How many owners haves complained their Chapuis 9,3 needed to be re regulated? My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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"I understand the drop makes those particular guns a pain to shoot with open sights," I would have thought that owners would have realised that from seeing photos before they ordered or purchased it. That is unless they were totally new shooters. Apart from the guy who seperated his RIB on the Chapuis twice (and was told by Chapuis that that was the last time it would be fixed if he kept using those bullets), I still can't remember anyone complaining about re regulation. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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There are quite a few owners here on AR, and NX, that have documented issues with regulation when shooting with a scope on the 9.3 Chapuis. While it can certainly affect any double, it seems to plague the Chapuis more than any other. After mine was scoped and I had issues I started searching here, and NX, and found lots of other people who have documented the same issues. Not a bad gun, but I find it amusing all the hatred directed towards Sabatti for a few guns being regulated improperly, yet a commonly occurring condition in another "proper" brand is never even mentioned. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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AK Stick, no disrespect, but you are still missing the point! The Sabatti was not regulated PROPERLY, so that it doesn't shoot properly with or without a scope attached. The Chapuis is regulated properly for iron sights, and only goes off target when a scope is mounted on it. This is common for any double rifle if it was not regulated with a proper weighted , and mounted scope in the first place. The lighter any double is with a fairly fast cartridge the more any weight is added above the center of gravity the more it will effect the regulation on the target. This is an entirely different thing than a double rifle that was not regulated by the maker so it doesn't shoot properly as delivered, OR with an added scope! When a scope is added to a double rifle it must be mounted as low as it can be, and weigh as little as it can be made and still stand up to the recoil of the rifle. You can't just mount any old scope on a double rifle and expect it to shoot properly, even when it is regulated properly for it's iron sights. The bottom line is, there is no excuse for a double rifle getting to the buyer that was not properly regulated for the way it was equipment when shipped. The fact that a new buyer decided to mount a scope on a rifle after regulation has been done, is not the maker's fault. One shipped with nothing done by the buyer except to shoot it at a target and finds it was not regulated properly, IS the MAKER'S FAULT Period! ...........................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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If that were the whole truth, why then, are there so many other guns that will regulate with or without a scope, including other brands of light 9.3? Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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Probably because the Chapuis's have a (slighty) different design of the barrels to other DR's. It doesn't matter, a gun is ordered from Chapuis, the gun gets delivered, properly regulated. End of. IF someone then wants to add a scope, then it is not the guns fault if it decides it doesn't want to shoot. And not that many people add a scope to a DR. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Its not properly regulated if it won't shoot. Being that obviously several other makers, including Sabatti, have figured out how to make a 9.3 that shoots with or without a scope, or mount installed, claiming that its the end user, is a poor argument, at best. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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Having difficulty finding a shooting load after installing a scope is not the same as the rifle not being properly regulated. This is why builders will regulate your rifle with the scope you provide when they build it. You are confusing two separate issues. Any builder will freely admit if you want to shoot the rifle scoped have it scoped during the regulation process. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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I would say that the most scoped double rifles are chambered for either 9.3X74R, or 375 flanged, both fast compared to most double rifles, and far lighter than the bigger bore rifles. As I said above, the lighter the rifle, and the faster the barrel time the more the addition of weight above the CG of the rifle the more it effects the regulation with the scope mounted. This is not as noticeable on an O/U double rifle but still causes an effect! None of this effects Chapuis measurably more than it does other brands that are as light. Still this effect is a whole different animal to a rifle being shipped to a buyer without proper regulation with or without a scope! ....................................................................This has gone far enough, as now it seems Sabatti has regrouped, and are making an effort to properly regulate their rifles! Still all in all, I really do not understand shooting the messenger who warns potential buyers of a problem with a product that is less than acceptable regardless of price point. ......................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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I disagree, and I do so, because so many other brands make doubles, that regulate both with, and without a scope installed. As I said, amusing. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
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We certainly disagree but there are different people with different opinions! That is certainly allowed by MOST here. ......................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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How many rib seperations can be attributed to the ammo and not the gun? Reading some old threads on ammo I get the impression that there are only a couple bullets that should be shot in ANY double. My sabatti shoots the hornady dgs just fine but I do not like the dgx bullet. I was thinking about trying some Barnes tsx but now I don't know. Full time professional trapper | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles Those Crappy Sabatti doubles, again!
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