Hello, all of you:

I would very much appreciate a little help from any of you. Anyone could tell me about the date of fabrication of my Auguste Francotte double rifle? It is a 450 BPE and the serial number is 79.703. It looks very much as the little brother of the 470 NE of the same maker belonging to "577NitroExpress", dated 1927.





Thank you very much

Antonio, Madrid

The proof marks should be able to give you a rough date / period of when it was made.

Others will be able to give you a better idea based on the serial number.

A picture of the action flats would be helpful.

I've owned quite a few Francotte shotguns and one rifle, but yours is the first I've seen with a square crossbolt.

JJ at Champlin would probably know. Just steer clear of George..he'll try to but it from you for $300 !!!

What we need for dating the rifle, is a photo showing all the stampings on the BARREL FLATS, rather than the action flats.

Very nice rifle by the way!

Edited to add........
Ok, I found some pics of the barrel flats of your Francotte over on NE.
The stamps do not include any dating letter.
This would suggest that the rifle was proofed prior to the letter code being used, which would suggest it is pre 1922.
As someone else mentioned, George or JJ may be able to put an accurate date to it.

Screw George I will give you $500.00 US for that canoe paddle

Thanks 5seventy. I realized that I had written action flats after I posted. I thought there was a way to edit after the fact. I'll have to look for it.

Thank you for your replies. When I got the rifle, I tried to date it with the marks in the barrel flats, without success. I tried to get information in the Francotte books, but I think they are not available. Asked also in Littlegun.be but their answer was not reliable (they told me it was a 450NE...) and without dates of fabrication. I hoped somebody in the forum has a Francotte of similar number and date...

MACD, the 470NE Francotte you can see in the "member´s double rifles" of the DRSS page also has a squere crossbolt ("Scott crossbolt"), and I think it is several years younger than mine. I saw another Francotte for sale at Holts in 450 BPE with the same crossbolt a couple years ago, but none of another riflemaker.

The rifle is very nimble and light (6 1/2 pounds) and I think it must be one of the latest 450 BPE made.

I send a photo of the barrel flats and a couple more...







Antonio, Madrid.

This is just a guess, but if it was serial numbered in sequence with their medium grade shotguns, which seems likely, then it was made in 1920.

Post 1924 Nitro proved for jacketed bullets.
Seems like a light weight gun for a nitro though...
The PV with the figure over it is a nitro proof for rifled barrels and parabellum pistols from Liege since 1924.
The crownR is similar for smokeless as well.
The ELG in the crowned oval is a black powder proof though. I don't know why the Belgians used this on nitro guns, but it is even on Belgian made nitro bolt guns such as 416's etc.
A couple of the other marks I am not familiar with.

Here are some details for those marks.

Crown over R means "Rifled barrels".

Next mark EL is "temporary proof".

U^A is the "Inspectors Mark"

Next, the Tower and steps, "The Perron" a "final proof".

Lion over PV is a "Smokeless Proof"

Crown over ELG * in an oval is a "Black Powder" proof.

Last mark AF is that of Auguste Francotte.

The wording underneath those marks is "B Plomb" which means the barrels were meant to shoot LEAD bullets.

If that rifle was meant to fire jacketed bullets it would have the wording "B Blindee".

As far as I know, the Lion over PV smokeless proof was in use since about 1898 or 1900.
From 1922 Belgian proofs include a letter which identifies the year of proof.
1922 was letter "a" 1923 was letter "b" etc etc.

Because this gun does not show any dating letter, I still think it is pre 1922, and "B Plomb" means it should be fired with Lead bullets.

"B.Plomb" implies a black powder cartidge, and "B. Blindee" a nitro cartidge. When I got the rifle, the previous owner sold it as a 450NE. In fact, I am convinced he shot a couple of NE cartidges and produced a small amount of overstressed rifling... recoil must have been "stout"...
The belgian marks are a little bit confusing, and aside the "B. Plomb" (and the ridiculous light weight of a little over six pounds for a big nitro rifle), it is very difficult to say it is not a 450NE. In fact, the 450 of the same maker I mentioned as being offered in Holts a couple years ago was marked at a very good price as a 450NE, and it was clearly marked "B. plomb" in the flats.
The rifle shoots quite well (2-2,5" at 50 yards)with 300 and 350 grains soft jacketed bullets, and almost as well with hard cast lead bullets up to 405 grains (load not fully developed yet).Rifling looks of the conventional type.

Gatogordo, I think your guess may be a good one... 84.xxx in 1927 and 79.xxx in 1920...

herrdoktor:

Here is the source of my guess:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/dgsnos2.htm

I have several Francotte shotguns so have used it on occasion. Unfortunately, I'm a little short on Holland and Hollands.

HerrDoktor:

My apologies for delay in responding. I have bronchitis and really bad allergeis and have been a walking zombie the last two weeks.

Below are some photos of my rifle.











In all respects, our could be twins. In the photo of the barrell flats you will see a lower case "f" under the R with crown. According to my memory, this identified the year the rifle was proofed in Liege - it was either 1926 or 1927. I got this from some old records I found on the net.

On the undersides of the barrells, you will see them stamped ".470", "express" and "B.Blindee." This does indeed indicate that it was proofed for the .470 NE with jacketed bullets.

Additionally, on both barrels you see both "11.7" and "11.6". These are the measurements in millimeters of the lands and groves of the inside of the barrels.

NOTE THIS. My rifle shows some stressed rifiling on the outside of bother barrels - they have never been restruck, but upon purchasing this rifle, JJ at Champlins sluged the bores and confirmed the land and grove measurements were not altered even with signs of stress rifling.

I hope this helps.

quote:

Originally posted by herrdoktor:
"B.Plomb" implies a black powder cartidge, and "B. Blindee" a nitro cartidge. When I got the rifle, the previous owner sold it as a 450NE. In fact, I am convinced he shot a couple of NE cartidges and produced a small amount of overstressed rifling... recoil must have been "stout"...
The belgian marks are a little bit confusing, and aside the "B. Plomb" (and the ridiculous light weight of a little over six pounds for a big nitro rifle), it is very difficult to say it is not a 450NE. In fact, the 450 of the same maker I mentioned as being offered in Holts a couple years ago was marked at a very good price as a 450NE, and it was clearly marked "B. plomb" in the flats.

B Plomb stands for "Balle Plomb".
The translation from french is "Ball Lead" or "Bullet lead".
"Lead Bullet"
....................................

B Blindee stands for "Balle Blindee".
The translation from french is "Ball Armoured" or "Bullet Armoured".
"Armoured or Jacketed Bullet".

That gun does not show the necessary proofs to identify it as a 450 NE.
To the best of my knowledge the 450 Nitro Express was only ever loaded with Jacketed projectiles. Therefore if the gun was intended to be a full 450 Nitro Express, it would show "B Blindee" on the flats.
It doesn't, and it would be EXTREMELY unsafe to attempt to fire full nitro loads in that rifle.

Edited to add....

The proofs do show the "Smokeless" mark, and this possibly suggests that the gun was proofed both for the Black Powder 450 Express, and the Nitro for Black smokeless load.
The Nitro for Black load produced the same or very similar balistics to the old Black Powder load.
Most importantly the Nitro for Black load produced the same or very similar pressure to the Black powder load, that being 11-12 Tons.

The full Nitro load for the 450 NE produced a FAR higher pressure of 17 Tons!

IMO that gun was proofed for the (much lower) Black Powder and Nitro for Black pressure of approx 11 tons, definately NOT the 450 NE pressure of 17 Tons.

5Seventy

I am with you on this one.

BP and Nitro for Black, especially the era it was made.

.

Missed the B. Plomb one...
I would agree that it is intended to shoot a smokeless for black or a light nitro load.
This is where the English system is better IMO. They simply tell you what the gun should shoot.

The "B.PLOMB" mark started on 8th July 1910

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Originally posted by herrdoktor:
"B.Plomb" implies a black powder cartidge, and "B. Blindee" a nitro cartidge.

B Plomb stands for "Balle Plomb".
The translation from french is "Ball Lead" or "Bullet lead".
"Lead Bullet"
....................................

B Blindee stands for "Balle Blindee".
The translation from french is "Ball Armoured" or "Bullet Armoured".
"Armoured or Jacketed Bullet".

Agree completely - it refers to the bullet, not the powder

Certainly, "lead bullet" or "Jacjeked bullet" refers to the bullet, not the powder; but black powder cartridges used lead bullets, and the "nitro revolution" changed this using jacketed bullets; or have any of you seen an ORIGINAL black powder cartridge with jacketed bullet or a ORIGINAL nitro cartridge with a cast or paper patched bullet?
At least in the belgian markings, "Balle plomb" means the rifle was designed for black powder cartridges.
Don´t worry about what I am shooting with the rifle...I have not the least doubt regarding my rifle was designed for black powder pressures.
577NitroExpress: thank you for the photos of your rifle, it is a wonderful one. Wish mine were the twin of yours! I will be very happy with mine being considered the "little brother"!
Regarding the "11,7" and "11,6"markings on the barrels, mine is marked 11,2 on both barrels, corresponding to .441", so I am not sure as if it correspond to the land and/or groove diameter. 11,7 is .461" and 11,6 is .4565. That is a too big diameter for a 450 nitro, I think...

And regarding the original question (the year of fabrication): looks like it was proofed before 1922, when the markings corresponding to the year begun, and after 1910, when the "B. plomb" mark was started. The 1920 guess from Gatogordo looks quite plausible... unless any of you have a better one!

Antonio