I found a possible donor action for a DR. As this is the quickest way for me to get a DR. It is a GH grade, Parker Bro. 12 ga., #2 frame, from 1902. Before anyone gets bent about cutting up a graded Parker, someone broke the stock and ruppured the barrels. This would get mono blocked and rifle barrels added.

I need to figure out is, what caliber to build on it. There are three reamers localy that I should be able to use. Looking for some in put from the DRSS.

500/416, I would regulate it for 400gr @ 2150fps. This would keep pressures down and dulicate the 450/400. As I see it, this would allow a better selection of .416 bullets.

450NE, lots of .458 bullets to choose from. Our own NE 450 #2, has reported good success with several bullet weights in his 450#2.

550BPE, yes I said 550BPE. This would be 650gr @ 1650. Balistic equal to the 577 BPE. This is the 577/500 case opened up to take the .550 bullets.

Hog Killer

Sounds like a good idea! Looks like you and Jeffe are going to be busy!

Rusty,
heh .. he's building A rifle (at this point) ... and looking for calibers...

I happen to like all of these listed!

jeffe

Can we get some one to post a comparative, two column list of .410 cal and .416 cal bullets, REMEMBERING ALL THE PISTOL BULLETS that come in .410!?
Go to it men, I love to hear of these challenges being undertaken!

I think you will find that a 12G frame will be a little large for the bore size you selected. You will have to have very large barrels and the rifle will end up being very heavy. I would recomend looking for a 20g shotgun if you want to build anything under .50 bore.

Hogkiller
I think you are on the right track.
I would either use 500/416 brass or 450 No2 Brass.
In the 500/416 you have a good choice of bullets and at 2150 fps the pressure would be probably the lowest of all the 400's. Nothing wrong with .416 bullets for any big game.
However if you go to 450 No2 you also have a tremendous choice of bullets for big game and I think a better choice and certainly much cheeper choice of bullets for deer pigs and just general shooting. My favorite being the 350 Hornady RN. Also Hornady 500 gr softs and solids cost peanuts compared to other 480 to 500 grain bullets.
Likewise there are the Hornady .416 400 grain soft and solids.
I guess it really boils down to which bore YOU like the best.

I'd like to "through something out" for consideration.

450 #2 NE brass and 500/416 brass are a good amount more costly than 500/450 brass or 450 3 1/4" NE brass or 450/400 3" or 3 1/4" brass.

Why not go with a cartridge that uses the less costly brass?

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
I need to figure out is, what caliber to build on it. There are three reamers localy that I should be able to use. Looking for some in put from the DRSS......

450NE, lots of .458 bullets to choose from. Our own NE 450 #2, has reported good success with several bullet weights in his 450#2.

Hog Killer

I am refering to the 450NE not the #2. I would rather have the #2 for the lowwer pressure. Plus Tony has worked out the bugs for high quality loads for the #2. But this reamer is on hand.

Hog Killer

I don't mean to be the voice of dissent...but I don't think the parker frames will take conversion. I've built 6 DR's myself now and have helped with about 7-8 others. We built one earlier one on a Lefever Nitro Special and one on a Fox B and had issues with both of them. Now this was all before Brown's book.

Just food for thought. If you were going to make a 45-70 and use the 28,000 psi limit you might be ok but going full nitro on the parker fram might be a bad idea.

Bill

I have reservations about the Parker frame as well. To be honest, I have extreme reservations about any Nitro DR conversion on ANY shotgun frame. A UGEX Chapuis can be had for $4k. Forget the aggravation and get a purpose built DR.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

banzaibird,

What actions have you and your friends used? What "issues" did you have with the FoxB and the Lefever Nitro Special?

IMHO do not put the Stevens/Fox and the Ithica/LNS in the same class as a Parker Bro. Those were much cheaper shotguns.

400NE,

Please help me understand what is the difference between a SxS rifle action and a SXS shotgun action. They look very much alike to me. If I had 4K in the play fund, I might just buy off the rack.

As to pressures, the 500/416 @ 2150 should be in the 14 ton range (31,360psi). The 450NE is 17 tons (38,080psi). The 550BPE should be 11 tons (24,640psi).

Keep it coming, guys.

Hog Killer

Keith:

More expensive doesn't mean stronger, although I imagine that the Parker was stronger than the Lefever or Fox B.

Double shotgun actions and purpose-built double rifle actions are different in most ways. I wouldn't try it with any American action - we've never had standardized proof rules here. My guess is that the Winchester 21 was the strongest of any American double gun action. They certainly had a reputation for being hell for stout. Years ago, Winchester tested a few .405 Winchester DRs built on the 21 and dropped the project. By some accounts of people involved, they had problems with that much pressure in that action and felt that they couldn't resolve them.

Your assumptions about the British pressure standards are wrong. The 17 ton standard for the .450 NE is NOT psi. The British rifle standards were stated in long tons of bolt thrust as measured in a base copper crusher gun (the copper cylinder is crushed between the case head and the breech face). It isn't CUP (radial chamber pressure as measured by a copper crusher in the chamber wall) or PSI (radial chamber pressure measured by a piezo electric transducer in the chamber wall). Just as CUP is not directly convertible to PSI, base CUP is not directly convertible to the other two.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

As 400 noted, price doesn't always mean stronger. In fact a lot of the cheaper guns are built so heavily that they are probably stronger than some of the top end guns. Oh I'd take the bet on the parker and the Lefever Nitro. My money would be on the Lefever Nitro.

The Lefever we built using the old barrels like a monoblock (barrels were blown) and on the "proof firing" it sheered the rib extension off. So it was repaiered and the gun expectations lowered to BP version of the 38-55. The Fox B was in 45-70 but the guy who owned the rifle decided he wanted to use the 44,000 PSI loads thus proof loads were even higher. The frame stretched/bent by a few thousandths. The gun was retired and cut because it was unsafe.

I've built most of my stuff on old guns with multiple bites. They have worked out great and I even went through having my 9.3x74R proofed at a proof house. It was built on a Merkel 8 frame using a handmade monoblock. Thus it has the 20 gauge shottie barrels and the 9.3x74R barrels. Now a lot of the ones we've been building have been on the CZ (huglu) actions. They have 2 underbites and the greener crossbolt are gauge specific sized and are fairly cheap. They have worked great.

The differences as 400 also noted are there, but not always that big of a difference. The DR action is generally a bit heavier construction for their size. However usually the homemade double is a frame size larger thus probably has the same amount of support strenght. A big difference is the firing pins, rifles always seem much smaller then the shottie which at times may need bushed. Then there is the debate on heat treating differences. I think this is more of a maker by maker difference. For example I was told that the Merkel 8 I used was the same action and heat treated the same way as their DR's of the time.

A lot of it is just some basic math and some common sense. Then I beleive in learning about proofing methods, or better yet send it for actual proof if you can. Because proofing isn't just if the gun blows up or not. Better loose a little money by cutting a gun up than loose and arm, hand, fingers etc.

I like you started building DR's because I can't/couldn't afford a purpose built DR. I haven't seen a UGEX for $4,000 with the possible exception of a 30-06.

Bill

Bill-

I have been looking at building a double on the CZ shotgun actions, and I noticed that you mentioned that you had used them. Since I haven't been able to fondle one in person yet, I have a few questions for you.
Did you have to bush the firing pins or make any modifications to the striker system? Have you built a monoblock from scratch for this action? Would you build a 450/400 3" on a 12 or 20 ga action? I have read on here that some people consider the 12ga action only suitalble for 50 cal on up, yet I have compared some of the measurements that are listed for a 450/400 to my old Central Arms 12ga, and the outside breech dimensions are very similar. Have you seen the CZ Amarillo? It looks perfect for a conversion. I would probably just lop off the barrels, I don't have much use for 20" shotgun barrels.

Thanks for your help!!

We've built 5 on CZ (Huglu) actions so far. The pins on the ones we've used all were fine for use with the rifle conversions. The calibers have mostly been small ones to this point. Thus we've used just the 20 ga or smaller. I think I'd opt for a 12 gauge maybe 16 gauge for the 450/400 3", in fact that is the caliber I'm putting together componets for now. The larger frame size will also give you more area to work with to keep the weight between the hands. Pay special attention to your barrel profiles, otherwise it's going to be like swinging a club.

The amarillo is a great one because it is a pistol grip and is cheaper than buying a bobwhite. They also have out a new hammer version.

Bill