quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
Yeah sure.. another one challenged by dates..
No, it was another war we told you not to get involved, just like Iraq.

Was that before or after Dien Bien Phu?
Grizz

Your guess?

quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Chick:
Well, Canuck is correct about the country being partitioned between the communist's and the remainder of the country, in 1954, after France's defeat, primarily to allow the South to retain thier own form of government; however, the fact remains that both the North and the South were sovereign nations, thus, it was not a civil war rather a war of conquest by the north.

you mentioned that wars are won by occupying territory: thats not necessarily true; the Brits defeated the Malyan insurgents, but, they did not occupy land during the Emergency, rather they hit and moved on, similar to what we did in Vietnam. If you have been to Vietnam you would know that the makeup of Vietnamese society precluded occupying vast tracts of land in, say, the Central Highlands, because there was nothing there except for isolated villages. We tried to conduct the war as if it was WW2 in europe, which of course, was a mistake. We also failed to convince the South to make the necessary civil changes required to win over the people outside of the large cities. Having said all that what wins wars is blood shed on the battlefields, and that we won hands down. we Americans sometimes tend to be too impatient, we must have instant gratification or we lose interest. The American public supported the war for the first 5 or 6 years, but, began to distrust our politicians because they would tell us that the war would be over by Christmas, if only we could commit more troops; instead of telling us that it would be a long slog. Now, you may disagree with what I say, but, I spent most of my youth there between 1962-1969, so, I feel I have the right to say it.

Of course you have the right to say whatever you wish, so long as you do not intentionally lie. I hasten to add, I do NOT think you lie. I would never try to deny that right of honest opinion to you.

Please do not assume however, that you know where I have been or when. I am a former member of the 25th U.S. Infantry Division, air-evac'd home in late 1958 with a permanent service-connected disability of some magnitude.

As early as 1956, the 25th had troops serving "TDY" assignments in both "the Nam" and in Quemoy/Matsu Islands where at one later point we were being shelled every other day by mainland PRC artillery emplacements. None of the "Tropic Lightning" troops were acknowledged as being either place then, but bit-by-bit that is changing. I hope to live to see it completely declassified & made public.

Anyway, my comments that the occupation of land wins wars is true. So does destroying the will to fight. Viet Nam was indeed too big for us to successfully occupy to the point of denying large areas of control, comfort, supply, and recovery to Charlie. For some unknown reason, our military commanders chose to ignore that, rather than report the truth to the American public and congressional politicians. The truth was, we did not control the hinterlands, or even the major highways except for each little piece we were actually standing on or could closely observe continuously, and even that only so long as we directly stood on and or observed it.

It was NOT, however, too large for the Vietnamese to occupy, control, and use to engineer our political (and therefore military) defeat. After all, we had what? Maybe 650,000 American, Australian, Korean, and other troops in-country at the very peak, while they had a population of 20,000,000 there all the time. We may have killed them on a 10-1 ratio, but they still out-lasted us.


That, BTW, is an interesting parallel to Iraq today. We have maybe half a million troops on the ground in Iraq, including everyone on the "coalition" side? Maybe less? (I've lost count.) How many million Iraquis and other indigenous are there, at least half of whom actively wish us gone? Their supply lines are short. Ours are thousands of miles long. They have both religious and lay beliefs supporting their efforts. We have ordered our folks there. Their "terrorist fish" swim in a vast "sea of the people" (to paraphrase Chairman Mao)...ours try to live separately (in hopes of staying alive) and, of course, stick out like sore thumbs.

They feel they are defending their country, which we clearly invaded. We, on the other hand, have long-ago learned that the "intelligence" which fueled our invasion was either ignorant, incompetent, or a damned lie. (Well, it might be even worse than that....it is possible all of the intelligence we had about Iraq was simply ignored by a President & "corporate" administration who, apparently, wanted another war there even before 9/11 occured.)

I fall back, of course, on my own personal beliefs, as everyone else rightfully does too. I believe we have no business letting the President and the military/industrial complex decide when we will have wars and against whom so that they can benefit by re-election, promotion, or exploitive golden bottom-lines.

I believe that declaration, control, and funding of war is clearly established in the Constitution as a specific, primary, function of Congress, which is directly elected by all the citizens of our country.

I also believe we have no right to tell other countries how they should govern theirselves. We have enough problems keeping our own government honest, financially afloat, and representing the needs and wishes of our citizens....not to mention keeping our borders secure.

Whatever, I do not blame the French for not being in Iraq. They do not owe us that. If, through good example and minding our own defenses, we had not gone there, perhaps other more effective solutions could have been established through careful planning and execution (no double-entendre intended).

Best wishes,

AC


P.S.: The division of Vietnam was sold to us common folk as a method of letting South Vietnam continue its own "free" form of government. In actual fact, it was obvious that if free elections were held, Ho would have been the overwhelming popular victor in both the north and south of Vietnam. As the U.S. President of the day (Ike) already believed in the "domino theory" of spreading communism, that simply couldn't be allowed to happen. As a result, the Vietnamese people were geographically divided and no nationwide elections were held, to "protect them from themselves". That is a whole 'nother huge subject, but is well documented, so we will leave it lay in the pages of history.

quote:

I fall back, of course, on my own personal beliefs, as everyone else rightfully does too. I believe we have no business letting the President and the military/industrial complex decide when we will have wars and against whom so that they can benefit by re-election, promotion, or exploitive golden bottom-lines.

I believe that declaration, control, and funding of war is clearly established in the Constitution as a specific, primary, function of Congress, which is directly elected by all the citizens of our country.

I also believe we have no right to tell other countries how they should govern theirselves. We have enough problems keeping our own government honest, financially afloat, and representing the needs and wishes of our citizens....not to mention keeping our borders secure.

AC. I think I agree with you on all three counts here, especially on what gives us the right to tell other countries what kind of government they should have. Us doing that is nothing more than totally arrogant bullshit on the part of our government. Oh well, if the Democrats (IE communists) have their way we'll be eating rice and noodles anyway.
On the industrial/military complex, President Eisenhower warned us about the dangers of them becoming a power in this country. It's too damn bad we the people did not listen. You can Goolge his farewell speech to the nation and read it there. It's only a few short line in the total of the speech, but I fear it's too late now. The Congress today is almost entirely controlled by the industrial/military complex. I'm fond of saying somewhat tongue in cheek that, "We have the best government big business can buy." I think it's well past the time we put those corrupt sons and daughters of bitches out to pasture. Do that and let their replacement know that the same thing can happen to them.It's the power of the vote, that is if thinking people will use it. Oh right, sheeple don't think. We're in trouble.
Paul B.

Typical bunch of internet hard-ons. Get over it, it is a joke! Do you think there has never been a joke told at America's expense??? Oh shit, maybe it is ok to laugh at those just not the ones directed at France? Besides, this is not the news or political forums-this is humor, so take the big stick out of your ass and chuckle, if you don't find the humor move on.

So move on yourself, Mr. Carr. No one is forcing you to read any of this. If some of the rest of us have something we wish to say to each other, we will likely do so, with or without your permission.

Have a nice day, y'all.

Too true AC, you most certainly do not need my permission, but it does get tiresome seeing these threads blow up off someone's silly effort at humor. And of course I am not "forced" to read it, but like any good example of a human being I cannot drive by a car accident without looking either .

Thank you for your courteous reply, Mr.Carr.

Normally, I try not to hijack threads. But then again, a humour thread is normally a single joke, laughed at and appreciated by all. It is not normally a place for some folk to spew ignorant and vicious xenophobia or display their own arrogance & ignorance.

That is what I get tired of...people trashing our friends in Europe (and elsewhere), when we could jolly well use all the friends we can muster these days. The French are a brave and generally reasonable people. Their governments may not always be, but then I can't say a hell of a lot good about OUR governments either.

Best wishes, and my apology for pushing one of your "hot buttons". It was not my intent, and it is now clear it was not yours to push mine either.

Best wishes,

AC