I see great claims about full penetration with a big exit hole with Barnes X etc, YET, I see truck loads of recovered bullets ets?? More so than any other bullet??? Are you guys just passing on someone else's info or what?? suspicious!! How does one seperated the BS from fact..

Recovered 2x 300gr .416 bullets from a Cape Buffalo - bullets hit bone but retained 100% of the weight. Recovered 2x 150gr .30-06 bullets from the far rib cage of an eland shot at 312 yds, also 100% weight retention. The other 10-ish shots at springbuck to sable sized plains game passed through, along with the last 10 deer I've shot in PA (a combination of .44 caliber saboted muzzleloader bullets, .30-06, and 6.5 Creedmore). The only other bullet which didn't pass through since I switched to Barnes was a deer I shot facing me with my inline ML, bullet went through about 3 feet of deer and was found in a hindquarter. Bullet picture can be found at the bottom of my album:

https://imgur.com/a/28QJC2q

I've guided pig and deer hunts since 1988. We've been forced to use nonlead since 2008, so I’ve seen lots of animals (between 1,500 and 2,000) taken with various bullets. Most clients bring Barnes TTSX or TSX. I've been using them (starting with the X) in several guns since before they were required.

We recover a few Barnes bullets, but I'd say less than 1/3 as many as we used to recover when most clients were shooting lead core bullets.

I HATE that we're FORCED to use just nonlead, but in my experience the accuracy and penetration is great. The penetration seems a bit straighter on average than the lead core bullets. We do typically get two theoretical blood trails, but my biggest complaint with the monolithic bullets is the small entrance AND exit wounds that don't leave much blood.

In a perfect world you don't need to follow blood… but when things go wrong you're typically going to have less blood to follow with a monolithic bullet compared to a lead core bullet (that expands quicker than solid copper). I've seen some textbook PERFECT placement with monolithic bullets (and cartridges up to .375 H&H) that left little or no blood trail. In a lot of cover, it takes WAY too much time to find the animal and I wonder how many animals are lost because of that sparce blood trail.

I wish they opened a bit quicker so they'd leave a better blood trail. Even if quicker expansion sacrificed a bit of penetration, I think it would result in fewer lost animals.

I've still never pulled one out of an animal that hadn't expanded. I know there are stories about them "penciling", but I've still never seen one in person. And on the flipside, it's pretty rare that petals are missing, so they are usually 100% original weight.

I'm sure many people have different stories and experiences (usually with a small sample size - and a ton of internet expert opinion mixed in), but these are my observations from 34 years of year-round guiding clients with many different calibers, distances, velocities and bullet placements.

In the last 30 or so years I have taken around 50 head of game with Barnes X , TSX and TTSX bullets. I have taken whitetail deer Mule Deer antelope elK and moose and a couple black bear. I have recovered exactly one Barnes bullet. Bullets have been fired from 25-06 257 Wby 270 Wby 280 Rem 7mm Rem 7 mm STW various 300 mag and some 30-06s 8mm Rem mag 340 358 Norma a 35 Whelan Imp. Never had a bullet come apart even with the high vel cartridges. Never excessive meat damage and never much of a tracking job. They just work. No BS to that

Kyler, have any of your clients used Cutting Edge Raptors or other fragmenting monolithics? If so, any difference in performance/blood trail?

Over here in the UK we are well on our way to being lead free. At the moment its not a legal requirement per se, but is a requirement of many game dealers (a lot of our venison goes into dealers for the sale in the public market), and many landowners where lead free is increasingly a requirement for certification standards. As well as Barnes, there are a UK (Yew Tree), European (Fox, RWS, Norma, Geco) South African (Peregrine) bullets now available.

Most work really well, especially the European brands and the Peregrines which all seem a bit softer and quicker opening than most of the American brands. On average our game is a bit smaller than North American.

There have been plenty of trials between lead and monolithics, including comparison of several hundred animals. Fundamentally there is bigger variation between individual hunters and where they put their bullets, and between brands than their is between lead and monolithics.

In my own experience with Fox, RWS HIT and Peregrine bullets is that all work very well. Of the three Peregrines open up more, give a bigger exit hole and leave a decent blood trail, the Fox is very unfussy as to load and hits hard. The RWS HIT is in fact, I am told, a nickel plated Barnes bullet and is a bit harder. I have shot a couple of Reds a bit far back and they haven’t gone down as quickly as I would like, buy that is more shot placement than fault of the bullet.

Given the performance of monolithics, and the fact that lead has many known harmful properties when ingested, I am firmly in the camp of using monolithics for shooting animals as I think as hunters and conservationists (really the same thing) we should NOT be putting known toxins into either the human or wild animal / bird food chain.

I appreciate that cost of a monolithic hunting bullet is on a par with a premium bonded lead bullet, and much higher than a cheap lead bullet. I don’t have any issues with shooting lead bullets on ranges where you have known backstops. But if you are working on such ranges you need to take precautions when handling the waste. In the same way sensible precautions should be taken when sanding down old timber that has been painted with lead paint.

thet work just as well for me as partitions

If you are loading for exit, you tend to get that.

This forum has a strong African component and the bullets tend to be from larger animals.

I also trust my monometal bullets for deep penetration and I’m willing to take shots that I wouldn’t with a standard bullet. Those angles tend to have higher recovery rates of bullets.

My disdain for monolithic bullets stems from the fact that they perpetuate the Enviro-Nazi movement. Which is the same lunatics as the anti-gun crowd, so I dont use them. There is nothing that they can do that cannot be achieved with either a bonded lead core or a solid.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
My disdain for monolithic bullets stems from the fact that they perpetuate the Enviro-Nazi movement. Which is the same lunatics as the anti-gun crowd, so I dont use them. There is nothing that they can do that cannot be achieved with either a bonded lead core or a solid.

You are missing out on very effective developments in bullet technologies that just perform very well on game animals. They are accurate, kill well and minimise carcass damage so you can get maximum meat recovery.

Barnes and others started developing them to overcome all the issues of bullet failure with lead bullets when high velocities and tough animals lead to lots of failures of adequate penetration.

Same ole, same ole,those who bought the koolaide!!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Same ole, same ole,those who bought the koolaide!!

Not quite.

If you find them after several feet of penetration as opposed to in the hide just offside of your deer/elk?

I’d agree that the best lead bullets (TBBC, fail safe, NF, partition, Aframe give adequate penetration, but not quite as much as a proper monometal bullet.

I don’t find TSX in the offside hide on a broadside buffalo. I do with TBBC, and AFrames.

Some state that is what they want- all the energy in the animal. I want 2 holes.

I’m willing to take a Texas heart shot on larger plains game with my buffalo rifle and TSX. I’m not inclined to do that with a conventional bullet.

This is interesting. I used to be quite religious about finding my bullets in the animal's carcass after I shot them. Now that I use mostly TSX or TTSX I don't bother as mostly the bullet just passes through the animal.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
My disdain for monolithic bullets stems from the fact that they perpetuate the Enviro-Nazi movement. Which is the same lunatics as the anti-gun crowd, so I dont use them. There is nothing that they can do that cannot be achieved with either a bonded lead core or a solid.

You are missing out on very effective developments in bullet technologies that just perform very well on game animals. They are accurate, kill well and minimise carcass damage so you can get maximum meat recovery.

Barnes and others started developing them to overcome all the issues of bullet failure with lead bullets when high velocities and tough animals lead to lots of failures of adequate penetration.

Missing out? No, Im standing on principle and it is not negatively effecting my hunting experience at all. My loads are accurate and effective. Maybe even moreso than yours. Where I am from it is the law and has been that an expanding bullet is mandatory for big game hunting. The reason for that is clear. The specific performance points can be argued back and forth all day. But modern lead core bullets are very effective on big game. That is undeniable.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
My disdain for monolithic bullets stems from the fact that they perpetuate the Enviro-Nazi movement.
Which is the same lunatics as the anti-gun crowd, so I dont use them.
There is nothing that they can do that cannot be achieved with either a bonded lead core or a solid.

While I am more-or-less in agreement on lead-free regulations, especially with regard to rimfire, Barnes X came before our lead-free regulation.

Bill,
I haven't seen enough of the fragmenting bullets used on bigger animals to form an opinion. I've played with the Cutting Edge and Hammer stuff a bit, but for medium+ game I don't like the idea of a bullet designed to come apart. Then you only have a very light for caliber, non-expanded, slug continuing forward. But again, this is only opinion. I really haven't seen them in the field much - and frankly would rather not.

Someone else mentioned the Barnes not losing petals very often and I didn't comment on that earlier. I've seen very few lose petals. In my experience, the main exception has been an oddity of a .460 Wby I play with pushing a 300gr. X around 3,000fps. It loses 1 to 4 petals on it's way through a pig pretty often, but that's a weird combo and that bullet was probably designed for a .45-70. Even that 200 +/- gr. .45 cal "slug" (after the petals fly off) seems to be pretty lethal at that velocity, but it doesn't penetrate as well as you'd think for all that energy (that's why I've found such a high percentage of them). That experience has made me think that all the petals coming off of smaller bullets probably isn't a good idea.

Again, I HATE that we're forced to use only these monolithic copper bullets. But my family has ranched in CA for 6 generations - and I don't tend to run from my problems... so I'm here for the long haul... and given the current rules I'm pretty happy overall with the Barnes bullets.

Nothing against the GMX (now CX) or E-Tips, but I haven't gotten the accuracy out of them as consistently with as many rifles as the TTSX and TSX. Not saying you won't, but the learning curve for getting a good load for a given rifle has been easier with the Barnes in my experience.

[quote]Kyler Hamann
posted 26 December 2022 09:32

Someone else mentioned the Barnes not losing petals very often and I didn't comment on that earlier. I've seen very few lose petals.


Nothing against the GMX (now CX) or E-Tips, but I haven't gotten the accuracy out of them as consistently with as many rifles as the TTSX and TSX.



I've used a reasonable quantity of TSX and TTSX bullets, mainly 30 and 375 cal. They can lose a petal during penetration, usually a single petal I've found, and usually caused by passing through bone. Even after complete bone penetration I've found passage continues undiverted which is pretty impressive. Obviously this applies to recovered bullets only and that is not many really. Kills have been good, which I like.

Agree with trying to make accurate loads with GMX bullets. These are the only monometals apart from TSX and TTSX which I've mucked around with for handloading. For me GMX proved a frustrating waste of time so I just gave up. Unlike Hornady cup 'n core bullets with which I have several accurate loads. But always found it straightforward working up really accurate loads with both TSX and TTSX bullets in any calibre. Why I stick with them. Great bullets in my book.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I see great claims about full penetration with a big exit hole with Barnes X etc, YET, I see truck loads of recovered bullets ets?? More so than any other bullet??? Are you guys just passing on someone else's info or what?? suspicious!! How does one seperated the BS from fact..

Probably a good place to start is to quit reading the stupid, senile shit this Atkinson guy posts.

I've shot Barnes for decades+ now beginning with the X then the TSX and now the TTSX (which the latter opens sooner/easier).

I was on their advisory staff for years until Randy sold the company so I have some history with the bullet in various calibers and cartridges.

They work and have worked for me 100% of the time on a variety of NA and African animals.

I've found very few bullets inside the critters. I've found very few pedals but occasionally they lose one in the animal (this isn't really a bad thing to me).

The Barnes seem to hit well above their weight class so I find them extremely productive in smaller cartridges used by women, youth and old guys like me who at times don't want or need a heavy recoiling cartridge.

I've also killed well with the Hammer Hunter bullets in cartridges as small as the 223! They tout that the pedals fragment off which should produce a larger wound channel. I found one bullet in an aoudad at longer range that I'd care to put on the internet because I can hear the howls from some of you already!!!! The bullet was perfectly mushroomed with one pedal missing. On the closer shots they do shed pedals and exit with usually one to 4 holes.... like hitting bone and having secondary projectiles.

Monos are not the only bullets that I use but they have never let me down in the 2 brands that I've use relatively extensively.

Zeke

INteresting post, both pro and con for the most part with the exception of one simpleton who had nothing to add to anything. just whining..

I used Barnes X a number of years ago ad did have failures, and Barnes discusses that in his reloading book so he redesigned the bullet and apparently it worked. I have not had a failure in recent times, other than no blood trail on rare ocassions?? penciling or turning over I suspect..I do believe that all of todays bullets are way beyond the bullets of yesteryear..

Kyler, I am pretty much in your camp on these bullets designed to fragment, but wondered how they performed on game larger than smallish whitetails. I'd personally stick with the Barnes TSX and not because I am forced to, but because I choose to. My reasoning is that I can shoot a lighter bullet at a higher velocity and a flatter trajectory and get penetration comparable to if not better than from a lead/copper slug the next weight class up. And I have found the Barnes monos to be consistently accurate -- maybe not the most accurate, but not far behind.

If a hundred people post photos of the one or two Barnes bullets that they have recovered it may seem like a lot but each of those people probably have dozens of other animals taken that they didn't recover any bullets from.

I've recovered four Barnes bullets out of more than 100 animals killed with them. One from a texas heartshot on a cape buffalo, 2 from gemsbok bulls and one from a bushbuck ram.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
This is interesting. I used to be quite religious about finding my bullets in the animal's carcass after I shot them. Now that I use mostly TSX or TTSX I don't bother as mostly the bullet just passes through the animal.

Mark

Me too. I use TSX n everything now.

I also use them these days, based on the number of people who swear by them..I use them in my9.3x62 with 250 Barnes X and 130 in my 308 and 180s in my 300 H&H and will in my latest, a 300 win mag. but I also use a number of other bullets like Nosler, Woodleigh, Rem, Win, etc..all good bullets.I tend to use a little lighter monolithic bullet per caliber..

"My reasoning is that I can shoot a lighter bullet at a higher velocity and a flatter trajectory and get penetration comparable to if not better than from a lead/copper slug the next weight class up. And I have found the Barnes monos to be consistently accurate -- maybe not the most accurate, but not far behind."

This! My 300 WM load is 150 TTSX at 3200. I'd have no hesitation in taking a bad angle shot with this combo. The harder you drive these bullets the better they work.

Mark

Plus 1 Jefe

Postings about small exit holes with little blood prompt me to recommend a call to a good tracking dog and handler...better than the best human tracker and now legal in over 40 states....on a long lead of course. Nothing more satisfying that finding a hunter's deer before the coyotes do.

I have killed a lot of animals with both traditional cup and core bullets, and many with monolithics.

The monos almost always exit on broadside shots. When using lead core bullets for similar shots the bullet is often found under the far side skin.

I have never heard anyone else say it, but I wonder if the shape of the monolithics assists them in punching through the skin.

Lead core bullets tend to mushroom into a gentle rounded shape(hemispherical) that is spreads the forces over a large area.

The monos, especially Barnes, tend to have 4 petals that are sharp/jagged and a depression in the center(the base of the expansion cavity).

I wonder if the monos "cut" through the skin, while a lead core bullet will not because of its smooth mushroom?

I have been using quite a few Barnes bullets, and have found the exit holes to generally be small. I shot 2 whitetails a couple of years ago with the 130 gr. TTSX from a .308 Win. at about 3100 fps. One dropped in its tracks. The other ran about 75 yard with a double lung shot. Only a few tiny drops of blood due to about a 0.5 inch exit hole. The lungs had tissue damage in about a 3" diameter area around the bullet path. It ran into some really thick cedars and took a half hour to find. This year I used a .300 Win. with the Barnes 175 gr. LRX bullet. I shot 4 deer and had exit holes of about 1 inch in all 4. I like the results much better. As it is a long range bullet, maybe it is made to open at lower velocities and thus left a larger exit hole.

Interesting thread...

Barnes may have had their own reasons. Honestly a mono is generally produced with a "fairly cheap" manufacturing process with fewer complex processes. Often the holes are simply drilled in the nose and no swaging is involved with various levels of success. From a cost point of view; there is no core bonding. Some other designs involve machining - like a mono - and in addition also core bonding and swaging (North fork / TBBC / Rhino etc.). There are good and bad products (like anything). It is relatively easy to set up shop to produce mono's, so the products vary widely in their performance and the research behind them.

The good ones certainly work. I will admit to quite limited experience and exposure to the mono's truly intended to be expanding. I have used cup point (limited expansion designs) and solid mono's a fair bit.

What I feel some resistance to I am not going to express scientifically but will try to explain. When we take a material of the same weight throughout (a mono) and to cut it to a spitzer type shape, also sometimes removing more material with drilling, we create a projectile which is biased with weight to the rear. This will tend to want to tumble to be weight forward. A great feature in a good lead core bullet is the ability to dart stabilise and even moreso once a good mushroom is formed (see designs of throwing spears / darts etc.). This gives a lead core design an advantage if striking at a very acute angle (i.e. quartering vs. broadside on) and once penetrating it has been given a good chance to remain nose forward. Of course core bonding and other features are required to achieve this and doing this is costly. I'm not suggesting this is always a problem with a mono and a mono that expands will generally benefit from a move in the weight distribution. I do however like the idea of giving the bullets of which we demand so much the best chance to perform as we want them to lead core design seems to me to do this.

The South African manufactured Peregrine mono to some extent ameliorates this challenge with some of the designs by creating almost a cylindrical shape, more like a mono-solid than a really pointy design. This must certainly be an advantage as it reduces the effect of a rear weight bias, but of course at the cost of BC and is designed as a short range bullet.

Designing to optimise Wound channel diameter and the right frontal area critical considerations and here a good bonded design is tough to beat. Many report narrow wound channels, minimal meat damage and small exits with mono's. Some recovered bullets of certain designs are barely over bore diameter. Minimal meat damage often equates to smaller wound channels and obviously tissue damage (by definition). If penetration were the only factor we would all shoot solids. Reliable and fairly concentric expansion is probably the greatest challenge for a mono designs to try to achieve sufficient wounding, whilst remaining stable. THe interrupted frontal area design of some like the TSX may well aid penetration due to that reduced and interrupted mushroom. There is always a balance in frontal area and penetration. Use of the right material of the right malleability is critical to achieve this whilst maintaining projectile integrity. There are of course also various inserts designed to initiate expansion as seen in several designs and as employed many years ago in various other bullets and the Lutz Moller mono design very many years ago.

It is a very interesting field to follow as most of us do.

....and some are confusing the "small exit hole" with not expanding or doing an energy-dump in the animal. Technically the exit hole will ONLY BE THE SIZE OF THE EXPANDED BULLET which is about, let's say, double caliber diameter...unless the bullet blows apart.

Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
I have killed a lot of animals with both traditional cup and core bullets, and many with monolithics.

The monos almost always exit on broadside shots. When using lead core bullets for similar shots the bullet is often found under the far side skin.

I have never heard anyone else say it, but I wonder if the shape of the monolithics assists them in punching through the skin.

Lead core bullets tend to mushroom into a gentle rounded shape(hemispherical) that is spreads the forces over a large area.

The monos, especially Barnes, tend to have 4 petals that are sharp/jagged and a depression in the center(the base of the expansion cavity).

I wonder if the monos "cut" through the skin, while a lead core bullet will not because of its smooth mushroom?

Since 2005 I've used Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets almost exclusively on hunts with my .375 RUM and .300 Wby. That's well over 40 animals ranging in size from Steenbok to Cape Buffalo and Eland.

Like you posted, most went all the way through the animals. I usually don't spend a lot of time looking for bullets in my animals, but I have recovered 7. Three from my .375 RUM and five from my .300 Wby. Three of those have one petal broken off and the other five are complete.

All of these bullets mushroomed to at least twice their caliber diameter and all are smooth in front and all around the mushroom, except the three with broken off petals, and on each of them one petal adjacent to the missing petal has a slightly sharp edge.

Only one of these bullets has a slight depression in the center.

In my little box of recovered bullets, my .30 caliber Barnes bullets look lilke they have a wider expanded mushroom and have less sharp edges than my other cup and core and Partition .30 caliber bullets.

A couple of further comments:

Lots of hunters seem to like, or take the view, that perfect bullet is recovered just under the far side skin. But they also want a decent blood trail.

So how does a bullet that doesn’t exit the farside skin, and tear a great big exit hole create a massive blood trail?? Think about it!

From observation the monolithics leave a much cleaner wound channel. It’s almost as if you taken - 1” diameter hole saw and bored a plu straight through the animal. Provided that hole is in the vital triangle below the shoulder blade no animal is going to survive, indeed it will most likely collapse on the spot given the large amount of autonomic nervous system in that area, along the main arteries to and from the heart and lungs.

But the monolithic doesn’t cause massive damage to the meat.

Lead core bullets by contrast fragment and the internal organs look like they have been through a blender. Especially the lungs. But I have seen lung shot animals with both lead and monolithic bullets go a long way.

With a monolithic there is no need for the old meat saver shot. Even if you put the bullet through both shoulders you will only loose a burger or two’s worth of meat.

When I was using lead bullets I frequently through away the offside side as it would be full of blood shot meat from lead fragments.

The extra meat recovered more than pays the addition 50p to £2 additional cost of a monolithic bullet / cartridge.

I have a few boxes of bullets and factory ammo with the Barnes X in them. I've seen better results with the TTSX, LRX or TSX and prefer them.

Has anyone ever experienced a TTSX bullet ‘pencil’ through an animal without expanding? I do not use monos because of reading this complaint, but it seems the ‘tip’ should eliminate this penciling problem? I am just curious.

I use NP & SAF for 100% of my hunting in Africa, and 50% of my NA hunting (plus BST), but I’d be willing to try TTSX bullets if they have solved the penciling problem.

I welcome comments!

Had numerous TTSX bullets "pencil" through. I always assume they have expanded, either to a lesser or greater degree, but have never found one to ascertain this. The evidence from the animal suggests expansion occurred. Any TTSX recovered from an animal has always expanded and often unevenly from bullet to bullet but, obviously, the animal died. My experience is they do kill well if the animal is properly hit. One thing TTSX's always do is penetrate like hell, and usually straight, confirmed by numerous pencil throughs. I have not had many deflect even after punching through bone. All my TTSX bullets are used on thinner skinned game - deer, antelope, ibex etc. All my Africa hunting is with .375 bullets, the majority of which are TSX, which have performed well for me. The other I use are North Forks which I like as well.

Note in these pictures that a properly expanded Barnes and a Nosler partition that lost its core ended up looking the same and apparantly penetrated the same indicating they both performed and did thier job..making some claims at least questionable.

s Based on my experience, most of todays bullets are about equal and the best they have ever been..I recall the days when all bullets failed from time to time..

Interesting conversation for the most part with the exception of one idiot who had nothing to add but sour grapes and off subject

The first whitetail I took with a Barnes X was 1994. I started using a 25-06 in 1993. 1993 I had an extended run and gun on a buck that seemed to have a kevlar jacket on. We did eat the buck, but it was ugly and a very long drag out. Those Remington Corelokts were not up to the task. Especially the going away raking shots offered.

1994 found me with a pocket full of Barnes X reloads. First buck reared up on his hind legs and tipped over dead. Behind the near shoulder and out the far. I expect I shot a pickup load or two with the 25-06.

10 years ago I aquired a nice little 7mm-08 0n a Remington Model 7 CDL frame. A pretty little thing, light and short. As many may recall, there was a time when retailers marked down inventory in the winter. I bought a couple hundred 140 gr TSX bullets. In my experience, they are easier to drive fast without flat primers etc. than the older model without the grooves.

I also bought out someone's 250 gr ML bullet with the yellow sabots.

This year is the first year I recovered any Barnes slugs, and I got two.

The ML buck was around 40 yards away, facing me. Through the heart and angled up. A lung, the paunch, along the backbone and stoped under the hide near the end of the backstrap. Around 30 inches of penetration.

The 7mm-08 buck was nicked by my grandson and heading dead away. Through a ham, out the body, totally trashed both testicles, one half gone, back into the body cavity through intestines, the paunch and under the hide behind a shoulder. Maybe 36 inches of penetration.

IMO it sucks cleaning the copper from the 7-08. The bullets are borderline crazy spendy, if you can find them. I cannot tell you how many deer and bear that we have eaten by the Barnes bullets.

Are they necessary in the 7mm and the ML, not for deer or bear. In the 257, yes, its small for the game. I have taken whitetails dressing over two hundred and bears to 380 dressed. No way would I use the 100/120 gr 257 cup and core bullets.

I'm particularly satisfied with Nosler Accubonds in my 30-06, 270 and 308 so far, but Ive had good luck with Barnes in my 308 Savage, but I can say the same for the Rem corelokt and PowerPoints..Lots of good bullets out there these days, it been many years since Ive actually had a bullet failure, the bullet makers have done their job..I remebmber when bullet failure was almost expected..I also recall those failured bullets still killed the animal reasonbly well with few actual losses.

I take an opposite view to some above:
I am a landowner and as such a custodian of all creatures that reside here and also have an obligation to my fellow landowners in a very wide conservancy that is a designated "Vulture Safe Zone".
Lead kills vultures and I need to eventually move all my bullets to being lead free.
Finding such that shoot well in my rifles has not been easy so far.