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I have been doing a some informal varmit hunting with my 22 RF mag marlin bolt with 4x scope. On a good day, i can shoot 1 moa from the bench. My next smallest rifle in a 7mm08. I feel the 22 has been a bit slow to kill, unless head shot on larger critters. The 7mm is a lot of gun for the smaller critters. I was thinking of filling that gap with a 22cf. And narrow down to two choices (223 vs 22/250) based on recommendation from two friends. I was leaning toward 22Hornet, but more I look at selection of guns and performance, I think I want more. Lucky I dont ask three people huh? I am sure the 223 is a big improvement over the 22mag and enough gun. But, I wonder if there is no real disadvantage in accuracy, I might as well get the 22-250, and have a longer range gun if I want to play that game. I dont shoot enough that ammo price is a factor at all. I want a light handy rifle that might shoot 1/2 moa if i get lucky with some factory load. My first pick is the CZ 527 M1 Amercian. 5.8 pounds, 3 shot flush magazine, smooth 20 inch barrel, a classic mini Mauser excellent wood and blue steel, claims excellent SS trigger. Accurate? Reliable? http://cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-527-m1-american/ My second pick is the Sako 85 Finnlight. 6.2 pounds, 20 inch fluted stainless barrel, new control feed action, rubber & synthetic stock, claims excellent ss trigger as option. I think a good reputation gun? http://www.sako.fi/pdf/specs/85Finnlight.pdf | ||
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After watching a new CZ in .223 get broken in at the range last weekend, that would be my pick bar none. The gentleman was shooting factory loads into 1/2-3/4" groups. Love that set trigger! | |||
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22-250, Savage. | |||
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The only thing I don't like about the cz is the backwards safety. Great nephew got one in .223 and the day we sighted in the scope, the boy got a whitetail buck--one shot dead right there. The .223 is much more pleasant shooting than the 22-250. I'd also look at .222 and .204 Ruger as good choices from what you have stated. | |||
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Both the 22-250 and .223 are excellent choices and you'll love either of them. Having owned several .222, .223, .22-250 and .220 Swifts, If I were you and in your position, I'd opt for shooting 55 grain bullets in a .243. Handloading required... If you're not available to handloads the choice between the .223 and 22-250 is a tossup....in fact you may not notice the difference on a hunt! Have a look at the Howa with the rubberized stock..... The Remington M-7 is also a fine option..... /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I have both a .223 & 22-250 and have shot light bullets in a 6mm. For most varmint hunting you would not see a difference between the 223 & 22-250. The .223 is cheaper to shoot. There are no flies on a light .243 bullet either. Every 527 I've shot has been a tack driver. If you don't mind the backwards safety it would be my choice. As usual just my $.02 Paul K | |||
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 The CZ will do that nicely in .223 or .222. Brass is easier to come by in the .223. The 527 is a great walk about rifle with a dandy trigger, bar none.Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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The lightest Savage I see it weather warrior. 6.5 pounds for 223 or 22/250. The photo looks like 30-06 action length. Maybe less expense?
My 7mm-08 is a Model 7. I quess I could just use that. This all started thinking about a 22 Hornet and then inching up little by little. Today, I got a big pitch from a friend who used to shoot ground hogs across his field from the 2nd story of his barn. He really likes the 220 swift but suggested I settle for no less than 22/250. I think after a quiet afternoon I lean back toward the 223. The CZ is the only 223 size action I found. I guess Sako stopped making that little bolt. The CZ quality is apparently good in the 527, it is not so good in the 550. I will see if I can look at some guns over the next couple weeks. Thanks all, | |||
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Unless you are "wanting" to shoot a different rifle, I would just get another Model 7 in 22-250 since you are used to shooting one? Of your choices listed, I would opt for the CZ in 22-250. Bob There is room for all of God's creatures....right next to the mashed potatoes. http://texaspredatorposse.ipbhost.com/   | |||
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Not to be contrary, but I wouldn't. The 22-250Rem is a high-powered, high-pressure cartridge that needs a longer barrel than the 20 inches both of his choices offer. The 223Rem won't mind such a short barrel. | |||
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Economics rear it ugly had and I just priced out the Sako. The savage was suggested and is priced right, but tend to be heavy and longer. Savage lists a 6.5 pound synthetic model in 22/250, might be worth taking a look. I was worried about the wisedom of 20 in bbl in 22-250. And I do like the short light guns. The CZ in 22-250? I dont see that offering. For a scope, I was leaning toward one of the Leupold ultralight scopes 9 ounces 3-9x. I think that would look and feel good on a 5.8 pound cz. For the bigger Savage in 22/250 might go look at bigger glass, but with that the weight adds up fast. The 223 is looking better all the time. | |||
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Agreed. The Savage is an expensive and accurate rifle with a very good factory trigger (given that one buys an AccuTrigger equipped rifle). The .22-250 was used as a benchrest cartridge back in the day whereas the .223 hasn't which may imply some accuracy advantage. Also, the trajectory will be a bit flatter with an extra 300-400 fps over the .223. The .223 is more economical given the availability of brass and lower powder capacity of the case. The .22-250 will have a bit more of a bark in report. If one is just shooting coyotes or whistle pigs, then it won't be like you'd be burning several hundreds of rounds a day. Overall, I'd go with the .22-250. | |||
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I think the key here is range. If your range is 300 yds or less,223 wins hands down. If most of your shooting will be past 300 yds, the 22-250's velocity will make hits easier. | |||
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Get a 223 with at least 1:9 twist. It will shoot 52 gn to 77 gn @ magazine length just great. Savage uses 1:9 but some have very long throats or at least used to have very long throats. They will do just fine with a 20" barrel. My 223 is a pre 64 Win 70 22 Hornet reamed out to 222 years ago by somebody else. It has a 222 magazine box and follower from a 722 Rem so it repeats just fine. It now sports a 21" Douglas #1 contour stainless 1:8 twist barrel from ITD and was fit and chambered by my friend with his old 55 gn throat 223 Rem reamer. This works wonderfully with magazine length cartridges, 52 gn to 77 gn. It most liekly will not be wise to even try 80 gn SMK's in this due to the short throat. 80 gn SMK's are not to be loaded magazine length. This is a solid 600 yard max gun, but you really need to know the distance to the longer targets and the proper number of come-up clicks. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Here we go, trying to make the .223 into something it ain't. 22-250 or .223 get it in a standard 12 or 14 twist. A good 52 or 55gr bullet will kill any varmint you can hit. If you want to shoot 70 and 80gr bullets, get a .243. IMO Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Having just acquired my second 22 in sako vixen 222 rem, I am putting together all the reloading requirements and now searching for a proper scope, thinking of some Leo in the 10 or 12 fixed range. My first was in 22-250 and is the Howa 1500 in the rubber stock and shoots 1/2 at 100 w/factory 55 gr trophy bonded bullets in the Federal offering. Really looking forward to reloading for the new to me sako. | |||
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I don't generally like to get into arguments here, but your's seems like a worthy cause. Just what isn't a 223? A 223 happens to be a very versatile, economical, accurate cartridge, that doesn't need more than 20" to work. That makes for a darn nice lightweight, little gun, with negligible recoil. That is what a 223 is. It is not a 22-250 and a 22-250 isn't a 223. The 223 wins in my book. I was always a 220 Swift fan but retired the Swift as the 223 has way more going for it. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Airgun, you make my point. The .223 is a fine weapon. So is a .338WM. They each have their niche. It would be silly to try to shoot 110gr bullets from a .338 so why try to shot heavy for calibre bullets from a .223? When there are better suited calibres or cartridges. As you know, the fast twist and the heavy bullets were a result of the USA trying to make a combat weapon out of a varmint cartridge. And let's not talk about the countless deaths of America's finest whilst they ironed out and whitewashed their stupidity. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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.223 is my choice. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I would pick the .223 purely based on cheap ammo availability. If any of my friends ask the very same question you did my answer would be .223 every time however I have a 22/250 and would never be without it (I've had it since 1976 and its on barrel #2). I'd like to have a light bolt action .223 like what you are considering. | |||
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I will not enter the debate on the military. The orignal question was for the man's first and only 22CF. For the record I am a retired U.S. Paratrooper and my son is on his second combat tour in Afghanistan. The 223 Rem much like the 6mm Rem came alive with a faster twist. A 223 is a varmint and target caliber. The faster twists permit heavier, longer bullets to fly further and slice through the wind better. You have to shoot one to appreciate it. I never said it would become a medium sized game cartridge. I never said it would shoot so flat that you could loctite the elevation adjustments and be done with it at any range. A 223 shooting a 69 gn Sierra Matchking at 200-300 yards is very enjoyable. With practice it is a viable round to 600 yds max. The 77 gn Sierra Matchking is even better at 600. The 223 benfits from a faster twist for 300yard and further. The 1:12 is limited to less as it is influenced severely by the wind. I have seen too many 1:7 old Colt HBARS shoot 52 gn Sierra Matchkings into well less than dime sized 10 shot groups at 100 yds. They were not "over stabilized" as in the myth. This was factory barrels and being shot from an autoloader in the prone, not 5 shot benchrest groups from a premium barrel. That is what I call a versatile and fun caliber as well as economical and easy to load. PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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My poll results are running 50/50 but I am leaning toward the 223. The CZ 527 M1 American has a 1:12 twist. I guess I would risk the 1:12 twist just assuming the builders know enough to get that in the ball park for the average shooter. I would start with the least expensive Remington 55gr walmart ammo and see if I could get 1/2 moa and if not keep looking. I have suffered a lot of hearing loss and taken to often hunting with orange sponge ear plugs. I prefer less blast from short barrel in 223. I know I did not mention this up front and if I wear the plugs it does not matter. But; I might occasionally omit the plugs (ie while moving between stands) Hearing loss is a bitch. I was walking outback with my wife yesterday and she spotted a deer, shouted and pointed. (we are not hunting deer in spring, just walking) Turns out she heard first, then spotted it. I never heard a thing, never saw a thing  | |||
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  My 2 cents.... | |||
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WhatThe, Thats a nice rig, I image it would be a good choice in 22-250 as well. And a great 10 shot group, I have seldom mustered the courage to shoot 10 for fear of messing it up. I was planning a lighter package. Leupold VXII ultralight scope mounted on a 5-6 pound carbine. I was hope with improvements in ammo and gun making that good accuracy could be achieved. My hunting varies from long hikes short stands to what ever opportunity presents itself. I like the idea of the external scope adjustments. Your scope does not look too large - What model and make of scope is that? | |||
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I was thinking hard about one of the CZ 527's. I can't however, get past that back asswards safety. What are the folks at CZ smoking? They market it for the "American" market but I've never seen a gun by any major American manufacturer with such a safety. I don't know if such safeties are common in Europe but they sure aren't in the good old USA. Tom Z NRA Life Member | |||
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My old Marlin 22 mag bolt has the backwards safety and it also make me nuts. These stupid ideas are not a European exclusive. Very accurate for an inexpensive older & ugly gun (like me). My old case backhoe had a shuttle shift and that followed the industry practice which was ALWAYS pull back the lever to go forward. This goes back to steam engine practice over 100 years. Now my modern Ford (now called New Holland) has the shuttle 'backwards'. it is pull back to reverse. I have already done some serious damage with that machine. Totally F'n GD stupid! I sure do agree, standards make a lot of sense. As for the 527, they have a new model called the M1 American. Improved, but a backwards safety. My real fear is quality issues with CZ. I have one CZ550 magnum with not one but several problems ranging from 2 feeding problems and a bent barrel !!! If you ask advise up front you get a lot of how good CZ is. Then after you get the gun and post your problems you get a lot of me too! I would like to hear up front if anyone had any problem what so ever with the 527. I have to say, problems and all, I like the classic Mauser design of the CZ and the idea of the mini Mauser 527. I may go examine a 527 this afternoon. I cannot find any M1 in New England Area. My 550 magnum looked great. It gave no clue of what was to follow. Yet, now I am 90% decided to try a 527. I dont see many choice under 6lbs. The H&R handi-rifle is one, but really sounds like pot luck for accuracy. | |||
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I recently bought the CZ American 527 in .223.It's a great shooter right out of the box.I started with low cost factory ammo as I could not find any small rifle primers.With the factory ammo I was under an inch with three different loads.Now that I have some primers/hand loads I'm around a half inch.I'm sure I can do better still after some more refinement.CZ makes some excellent guns. | |||
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I have a 22-250 and a 223. The 223 is an American Model CZ 527. It's got a 1-12 twist. Posted below are some groups I shot with it. But, an alternative would be your 7-08. I have a 7-08 also. I worked up a varmint load for it using 100 Grain Sierra HPBT's. 42.0 gns of Varget and Fed 210 primers deliver 1/2" groups at 100 yards for 3 shots. I shot those groups with a 20x scope. I think that this combo might just be perfect for Coyotes, if you don't plan on saving pelts. Not trying to talk you out of a new rifle, just adding another option for the 7-08. We ALL NEED new rifles occasionally..     DonB | |||
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Savage 14 Classic in .223 with a Leupold 2.5-8X. Savages come with a 1:9" twist and will stablilize even the 80gr Sierra VLD. Rich | |||
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Were it me I'd pick the rifle I want first and then worry about the caliber. If you like the CZ I suppose that answers both questions. What led me to vote for the 223 was that fact that it's your only 22 centerfire and you want "light and handy". Those two go together well. A light and handy 22-250 would serve you also, but very loudly and with a light contour, less percentage chance of those elusive groups from a warming barrel. With any luck, you'll be so impressed with your new 223 that you'll get the 22 centerfire bug and add that 22-250 to the stable as well. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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If you are sure that you will only ever want only one .22 center-fire then I would look hard at the .223 with all it's components being available forever due to it's military connection. Choose the rifle that meets your eye and pocketbook the best and you will enjoy it for a long time. WARNING!!!!!! .22 center-fires are habit forming and have been known to lead to multi firearm ownership. | |||
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It's actually a 15 shot group! And better yet, by my wife! It's a Nikon Monarch. I'm not sure but I thing it's a 4X16X40. She bought it and I mounted it for her. The real nice thing about it is the 1/8" M.O.A. she can really tighten up her grouping. The rifle is incredibly accurate and in the hands of a pro, I would put it against anything out there! | |||
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I though I recognize that eye peice. I have three Nikons now on my big rifles. I think a well kept secret. Its easy to just buy a Leupold. I took a chance on my first Nikon a year ago and ended up with three. Excellent optics and a good value - IMHO. They do tend to weight a bit more in some cases. | |||
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Sako in .223 | |||
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Sako no longer offers a vixen size action. They make a medium action, the lightest option in the medium (which they call "S") is 6.5 pounds. Thats a full pound over where the actual 222/223 lenght actions come in. At 6.5lb, as already pointed out I can use my 7mm08 or look at a 22-250 class gun. These weight are all minus scopes. I was looking at Ruger No1, because I was planing a tropical and though a pair would be cool but the No1 light sporter is not offered in any 22 and those weight 7+ pounds. The Ruger 77 in 22 Hornet is 6.5 pounds. I guess that is a manly 22? Neither of those seem to get rave reviews in the accuracy dept. Sako has a reputation from way back for accuracy. Again, the 22-250 seemed the best choice there? More pricey that I would like. For that money it better be spot on my exact desire. | |||
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To follow up, I was out on a fact finding mission today. I looked at the Ruger Compact in 762x39 and I was sold. Nice feel! I ask to get one ordered in 223. Then it turned out the 762 was 5.75 pounds but the 223 was speced at 6.25 pounds and yet only a 16 in barrel. So; I held back on that decision. Ruger uses a medium action with the magazine blocked a short pencil thin barrel. I also found a CZ527 M (Note not the new M1 the old M) That was not to my liking either. Hugh grotesque iron sights, ugly magazine and trigger guard. But, the new M1 on-line looked good. I asked about cost and availability. I am waiting to find out about that. I still like to actually see one of the M1 models somewhere in New England area. The action was sized just right for the 223 and this will be a 5.8 lb gun with 20 in barrel. I also stumbled across and older used Sako in 22 Hornet. Chocolate bar wood finish and heavier and bigger stock than I would have imagined. Look about 22 or 24 in barrel. It did have a cute little action sized just right for the 222/223/22hornet. The price was high, gun to big and cosmetics out of date. These are no longer made or else, I would expect it would be updated in an ultralight option. | |||
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If you could find a little Sako in 222 that would be a nice candidate to change to a 223. It takes a lot of work (modifications) to change a 22 Hornet into a 223. It can be done but Sako's aren't cheap, never were plentiful, and getting the proper parts to convert a Hornet into a 223 will be a slow and expensive search. Now a 222 Sako is a barrel change to get a good 223; a reamer would work on the exisitng barrel but it would most likely be a 1:14 and not my choice. My choice is 1:8 but 1:7,8, or 9 would be great in my opinion. You should take a look at the various Savage 223 models. Accuracy will not be an issue in any of the configs and you may find one light enough. They are easy enough and cheap enough to swap the barrel to a lighter one. 7.62 x 39 ain't much of a varmint or long range round, no way no how! PA Bear Hunter, NRA Benefactor | |||
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Do they make the model 7 in .223? Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Fourbore I have several of these 527 CZ rifles. in 204 Ruger 221 Fireball, two 223's, hornet,and K hornet. In my opinion a lot of the cosmetic dislikes tend to fade fast when you start putting all of your shots inside a nickel at 100 yards. There folks that make single shot adapters for most of the cartridges and they of course mount flush. The stock trigger is easily adjust able down to slightly over a pound, and the SS even lighter if need be. The one many folks don't care for is the ring height needed for bolt clearance, but you can get around that be sending you bolt to James Calhoon, he has done a remake on the angle of throw so you can use lower rings. I have a Ruger 77 in a 250 Savage and it is a sweet shooter, but for some reason I have a safe full of CZ's and only 1 Ruger. FS | |||
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I don't see many choices in purpose built small actions and the new model M1 should address the cosmetic issues. I was just over on Gun Broker and based on all the descriptions these models are changing over night. I need a spread sheet to track all the variations! I am extremely encouraged by CZ apparent attempt to meet American taste and yours and others performance reports. I think with a little patience I can have my cake and eat it too  FS, Where do you get scope rings? Are they special 527 rings or some standard? And how high is needed to just barely clear the scope for slow single shot shooting? | |||
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