Is anyone here shooting the 6.5 Grendel? I sent off my Mini MkX barrelled action in 7.62 x 39 to have it barrelled with a 20 inch 1-9 twist Douglas XX barrel. Why, well when it comes to our sport/hobby it's one of those 'if you have to ask then you won't understand', LOL. Anyone have any favorite loads? I think I should be able to squeeze a little more out of it as I am using a bolt action instead of an AR style rifle. It joins my Ruger 77/44 converted to 357 x 44 Bain & Davis with a Douglas XX barrel.


Steve E.........

I'm no help. I plan to do the same shortly with maybe a Hart bbl.

I have an ar 15 in 6.5 grendel..Shoots well. I hope to use it on ferrel hogs..hornady brass with the small primer pocket is my brass and loads well.

It has become a favorite cartridge for me. I also have a mini-mauser in the works, and hope to see it finished soon.

I bought a Ruger 77 stainless action which was setup for the 6mm PPC, and had it barreled in 6.5 Grendel - PacNor 8.5" twist. I used a factory laminate sporter stock. It is great to shoot, and whacks deer very well. I think I was using H335 powder. As I recall, I too thought that maybe I could shoot a hotter load in the bolt action, but that didn't turn out so well. Accuracy dropped off as I approached max load, so I never did top out. The case is small capacity yet efficient. There isn't a lot of room to work with increased charges, and my initial impression was that it's best to keep the loads mild.

Also, I am assembling an AR-15 in the Grendel. I just today bought a Shilen 20" barrel with the bolt, which had been on backorder for some time. Hopefully I can get the upper assembled soon. The receiver is a LAR OP-4 with sidecharging bolt carrier.

Anyway, it beats a 223 in the AR-15 anyday for deer and hogs. Perhaps I can post more later, after it is assembled.

KB

I am just waiting for the GS to chamber the 21 x 8 twist barrel for my Mark X mini mauser. I had a custom reamer made that took forever to arrive (20 weeks instead of the promised 6-8) and went with the 6.5 GM (Grendel Max) though which is the Grendel with the shoulder mooved forward by .005 and have lengthened the magazine so I can load out to 2.4 OAL. .293 chamber neck and throated for the A Max loaded to 2.4 OAL. CFE223 and the A Max will be the jacketed performers for me with a 127gn cast bullet from a custom mould intending to run in the 23-2400fps range for inside 250yd hunting.

KB--Anyways it beats a 223 in the AR-15 anyday for deer and hogs. Please tell us about the vast experience you have with it to back up that statement.

Haven't taken any hogs with it yet, but it worked well on sitka blacktail. I plan on using it for hogs when I go south in January, and have no doubt of its ability to do the job very well.

Here's a bit on interesting info:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5mm_grendel.htm

The 6.5mm Grendel
By Chuck Hawks
“The 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet has a ballistic coefficient of .458 and a sectional density of .246. Here are the velocity/energy figures for that bullet as factory loaded for the 6.5mm Grendel: Muzzle - 2600 fps/1801 ft. lbs.; 100 yards - 2413 fps/1551 ft. lbs.; 200 yards - 2234 fps/1330 ft. lbs.; 300 yards - 2062 fps/1133 ft. lbs. At a MV of 2600 fps the trajectory of that bullet looks like this: +2.8" at 100 yards, +1.1" at 200 yards, -7.5" at 300 yards. The maximum point blank range of that load (+/- 3") is 259 yards.”

http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5x54_MS.htm

The 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer
By Chuck Hawks
“According to the Sierra Reloading Manual, Second Edition the 120 grain spitzer bullet can be driven to a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2600 fps from a 20" barrel by 35.9 grains of IMR 3031, 37.3 grains of IMR 4895, 37.8 grains of IMR 4064, or 41.2 grains of H380 powder. The muzzle energy (ME) of these loads is 1801 ft. lbs. According to the Sierra external ballistics tables, from a scoped rifle the trajectory of this load looks like this: +2.31" at 100 yards, 0 at 200 yards, and -9.64" at 300 yards”



You can't make a 223 look that good - on paper or in the field, even lying about it.

KB

KB

I also ordered an OPS-4 (now owned by rem.) but with a Walthers bbl/bolt. Good luck to use both :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

Also, I am assembling an AR-15 in the Grendel. I just today bought a Shilen 20" barrel with the bolt, which had been on backorder for some time. Hopefully I can get the upper assembled soon. The receiver is a LAR OP-4 with sidecharging bolt carrier.

Anyway, it beats a 223 in the AR-15 anyday for deer and hogs. Perhaps I can post more later, after it is assembled.

KB

KB--Who shot the gun for you to determine if it was accurate? You had a .257 R that was not accurate and you didn't know it until a buddy shot it and told you.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Haven't taken any hogs with it yet, but it worked well on sitka blacktail. I plan on using it for hogs when I go south in January, and have no doubt of its ability to do the job very well.

Here's a bit on interesting info:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5mm_grendel.htm

The 6.5mm Grendel
By Chuck Hawks
“The 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet has a ballistic coefficient of .458 and a sectional density of .246. Here are the velocity/energy figures for that bullet as factory loaded for the 6.5mm Grendel: Muzzle - 2600 fps/1801 ft. lbs.; 100 yards - 2413 fps/1551 ft. lbs.; 200 yards - 2234 fps/1330 ft. lbs.; 300 yards - 2062 fps/1133 ft. lbs. At a MV of 2600 fps the trajectory of that bullet looks like this: +2.8" at 100 yards, +1.1" at 200 yards, -7.5" at 300 yards. The maximum point blank range of that load (+/- 3") is 259 yards.”

http://www.chuckhawks.com/6-5x54_MS.htm

The 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer
By Chuck Hawks
“According to the Sierra Reloading Manual, Second Edition the 120 grain spitzer bullet can be driven to a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2600 fps from a 20" barrel by 35.9 grains of IMR 3031, 37.3 grains of IMR 4895, 37.8 grains of IMR 4064, or 41.2 grains of H380 powder. The muzzle energy (ME) of these loads is 1801 ft. lbs. According to the Sierra external ballistics tables, from a scoped rifle the trajectory of this load looks like this: +2.31" at 100 yards, 0 at 200 yards, and -9.64" at 300 yards”



You can't make a 223 look that good - on paper or in the field, even lying about it.

KB

You never learn anything KB. Correct, you can't make a 223 look that good but a 223 shooting a 80 SMK at 2869 fps, with muzzle energy of 1462 and 890 at 300 yards with a drop of only 7.59 inches at 300 yards when sighted in at 200 yards isn't shabby. Now if you go to a 6mmPPC it's even worse for the 6.5 Grendel. As for optimum overall in an AR15 (meaning velocity, drop, and energy) the 6.5 Grendel isn't it.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
You never learn anything KB. Correct, you can't make a 223 look that good but a 223 shooting a 80 SMK at 2869 fps, with muzzle energy of 1462 and 890 at 300 yards with a drop of only 7.59 inches at 300 yards when sighted in at 200 yards isn't shabby. Now if you go to a 6mmPPC it's even worse for the 6.5 Grendel. As for optimum overall in an AR15 (meaning velocity, drop, and energy) the 6.5 Grendel isn't it.

What I've learned is that to do what you suggest with a 223 a very fast twist rate is necessary, perhaps one in seven inches. So whatever the ballistic performance is possible is not relevant to the average 223.

Secondly, you mention a 6mm PPC, which is not common in the AR, and again requires a fast twist rate to shoot the VLD and heavy bullets properly. Usually the 6mm PPC is set up around a slow twist barrel to shoot the lighter target type bullets in a bolt action heavy barrel.

Considering those very relevant factors, the 6.5 Grendel looks good indeed. The std barrels offered shoots the optimum bullet for deer size game in the 6.5mm, considering the case size. (120gr - 123gr) Factory ammo is readily available. It's the dandy. My Ruger likes the 100gr Barnes TTSX, and I like them too. Deer don't like them at all.

The only thing I might add is that I think I would prefer the LBC reamer over the original Grendel, especially in a bolt action. My Ruger chamber was cut with a reamer made to LBC specs.

I bought the Shilen because it was available, but given an option it may not be my first choice.

My second choice in the AR-15 type cartridges is the 6.8mm SPC. It's almost as good as the Grendel. But the rifles available in 6.8 SPC usually have the chrome lined barrels, and are set up more tactical. It's also not a good choice for a bolt action due to the lack of suitable actions. The 6.5 mm has better SD compared to the light .277 bullets.

Anyway, after a lot of thought, and trying a 30 Rem AR, I've decided the Grendel (or LBC) is optimum in the AR-15.

KB

KB oopppss--Maybe I shouldn't ask who shoots for you to see if it is accurate. Perhaps your ex wife and that would bring up bad memories.

Are you trolling again carpetman? Try to be a contributor to the conversation. We are talking about real world deer rifles, not one of your fantasies.

KB

There is an interesting article in the December/January issue of Shooting Times on the 6.5 Grendel. Lots of information listed there.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
You never learn anything KB. Correct, you can't make a 223 look that good but a 223 shooting a 80 SMK at 2869 fps, with muzzle energy of 1462 and 890 at 300 yards with a drop of only 7.59 inches at 300 yards when sighted in at 200 yards isn't shabby. Now if you go to a 6mmPPC it's even worse for the 6.5 Grendel. As for optimum overall in an AR15 (meaning velocity, drop, and energy) the 6.5 Grendel isn't it.

What I've learned is that to do what you suggest with a 223 a very fast twist rate is necessary, perhaps one in seven inches. So whatever the ballistic performance is possible is not relevant to the average 223.

Secondly, you mention a 6mm PPC, which is not common in the AR, and again requires a fast twist rate to shoot the VLD and heavy bullets properly. Usually the 6mm PPC is set up around a slow twist barrel to shoot the lighter target type bullets in a bolt action heavy barrel.

Considering those very relevant factors, the 6.5 Grendel looks good indeed. The std barrels offered shoots the optimum bullet for deer size game in the 6.5mm, considering the case size. (120gr - 123gr) Factory ammo is readily available. It's the dandy. My Ruger likes the 100gr Barnes TTSX, and I like them too. Deer don't like them at all.

The only thing I might add is that I think I would prefer the LBC reamer over the original Grendel, especially in a bolt action. My Ruger chamber was cut with a reamer made to LBC specs.

I bought the Shilen because it was available, but given an option it may not be my first choice.

My second choice in the AR-15 type cartridges is the 6.8mm SPC. It's almost as good as the Grendel. But the rifles available in 6.8 SPC usually have the chrome lined barrels, and are set up more tactical. It's also not a good choice for a bolt action due to the lack of suitable actions. The 6.5 mm has better SD compared to the light .277 bullets.

Anyway, after a lot of thought, and trying a 30 Rem AR, I've decided the Grendel (or LBC) is optimum in the AR-15.

KB

What twist you think the 6.5 Grendel AR's come in KB? A could we say 8 twist? Do you consider that slow compared to the 7 and 8 twist 223's. You have your head in the sand again. Further more those high velocities for the 6.5 Grendel are not obtainable from the more common barrel lengths that most those rifles are made in which is 16 and 18 inches. It takes the 24 and 26 inch barrels to get those top velocities. AA doesn't tell you that.

Probably the reason you don't see the 6mmPPC in AR's is because of all the advertisement hype to push the other calibers such as the 6.5 Grendel, the 6.8 Rem, and most recently the 300 AC Blackout and 300 Whisper. The military wasn't interested in the first two. You'll see entirely new caliber when they decide to get rid of the M16 platform. I get a kick out of how the 300AC and 300 Whisper are promoted. They build them up to be something they definitely are not. Most the military's used a 6.5 of one form or another and none of them do today. They got away from them. I doubt you'll see them going back to it. I know you didn't mention this, but recently saw a gun magazine article where AA is trying to peddle the 6.5 Grendel off to the military again. Not going to happen. By the way I got rid of my 6.5 Grendel.

quote:

16 and 18 inches.

I never understood why you would buy a 6.5 Grendel in a 16-18". Then I went ahead and bought a 6.8 in an 18".

I'll eventually have 223, 6.5G, 6.8, 300 aac. I have a friend with a 50 Beowolf and 450 Bushy. It's all in good fun.

6.5grendel via Quickload. 120 nos, 22" bbl @51k

H322, 25gr = 2504fps
H335, 26.5gr = 2461fps
ww748, 27.5 = 2531fps

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
What twist you think the 6.5 Grendel AR's come in KB?

For the Grendel:
My Ruger is 8.5" twist. The Shilen barrel I just bought is 9" twist. I have another barrel on order in 8.75" twist.

It's not that I consider the above twists slow, compared to the fast twist in the 223. It's that I consider the above twist rates common for the 6.5 Grendel and the fast twists in 223 not common. And even if available, few people shoot the really heavy bullets for game out of the 223.

The Grendel produces enough velocity out of a 20" barrel to be perfectly sufficient for deer.

I agree with you about the Blackout. It's worthless to me.

Who cares whether the military adopts the Grendel or not? I certainly don't care. If AA is successful, that would be a good thing. One advantage of the Grendel for the military is that it could replace the 5.56x45 and 7.62x51.

The military has a different purpose compared to us deer and hog hunters. For their needs the 223 may be correct. For the needs of a deer and hog hunter, the 223 is marginal and specialty, for experts or those who think they are experts, or for the simply ignorant.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
What twist you think the 6.5 Grendel AR's come in KB?

For the Grendel:
My Ruger is 8.5" twist. The Shilen barrel I just bought is 9" twist. I have another barrel on order in 8.75" twist.

\
It's not that I consider the above twists slow, compared to the fast twist in the 223. It's that I consider the above twist rates common for the 6.5 Grendel and the fast twists in 223 not common. And even if available, few people shoot the really heavy bullets for game out of the 223.

The Grendel produces enough velocity out of a 20" barrel to be perfectly sufficient for deer.

I agree with you about the Blackout. It's worthless to me.

Who cares whether the military adopts the Grendel or not? I certainly don't care. If AA is successful, that would be a good thing. One advantage of the Grendel for the military is that it could replace the 5.56x45 and 7.62x51.

The military has a different purpose compared to us deer and hog hunters. For their needs the 223 may be correct. For the needs of a deer and hog hunter, the 223 is marginal and specialty, for experts or those who think they are experts, or for the simply ignorant.

KB

The 7,8,9,and 12 twist are VERY common in the 223. If the barrel is marked 5.56 NATO more often then not the twist is 7. They even are selling bolt rifles in 223 and 22-250 with faster twists, which is common now. Still got your head in the sand. The .223 is NOT marginal for hogs and deer. Depends too what state you hunt the deer in and specie of deer also, because all deer are not white tails. Most states now allow .22 center fires for deer and don't specify specifically which 22 center fire meaning ALL of them...so that mean 22 Hornet. My state being one. I don't feel the military has ever selected a cartridge that wasn't sufficient for killing a human being....which are very comparable to white tail deer. Just as in hunting soldiers often don't make all kill shots. Deer don't have medical personal on the field like soldiers so most of the badly shot ones die. Have you ever seen anyone shot with a 5.56/223?

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Have you ever seen anyone shot with a 5.56/223?

No, but I've seen deer shot with a 223 and get away, mortally wounded.

Anyway, this thread is about the Grendel. Why do you invade it with BS about the 223 which I for one am sick of hearing about. I suspect others feel the same. The 223 ain't even close to being in the same league with the Grendel, no matter what the GD twist rate.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Have you ever seen anyone shot with a 5.56/223?

No, but I've seen deer shot with a 223 and get away, mortally wounded.

Anyway, this thread is about the Grendel. Why do you invade it with BS about the 223 which I for one am sick of hearing about. I suspect others feel the same. The 223 ain't even close to being in the same league with the Grendel, no matter what the GD twist rate.

KB

Oh, struck a nerve there. Not only are you sick of hearing about the 223 you don't know much about it nor the 6.5 Grendel. See that is AA's forte...brain washing dummies.

Striking a nerve is a common event when you are involved in the conversation. Where did you come up with the notion that I don't know much about the Grendel, and that I know less than you do about anything? Is not everything I posted above accurate, useful and verifiable?

Practically every thread in which you post turns into a personal argument with you, and not just from me.

You have for a long time had a beef with AA, and let the world know it. That's pretty old and worn news too.

For those who don't already know everything:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/2...itary-ought-to-have/

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Striking a nerve is a common event when you are involved in the conversation. Where did you come up with the notion that I don't know much about the Grendel, and that I know less than you do about anything? Is not everything I posted above factual?

Practically every thread in which you post turns into a personal argument with you, and not just from me.

You have for a long time had a beef with AA, and let the world know it. That's pretty old and worn news too.

That's why you get along wonderful with carpetman n Teancum huh? After your crap in the gun section you ventured over to the political thread and started your crap there, now back to the gun section. It's you pal, not us, that is the problem.

In case you didn't notice, DW, I try to keep the real controversy and personal attacks over in ARPF, and the stuff re guns and shooting sorta clean. The exception is carpetman and teancum. Now you add to the SH list.

The truth is I get along better, actually, with carpetman and teancum. At least we understand each other, and maintain a standoff. They are just dumbasses. You on the other hand are kinda weird and so full of it, and unpredictable. You bait with BS, then attack when another point of view or disagreement is presented. IMO, your posts are very misleading, and mostly not even on topic.

I play nice with those who will do likewise. IMO, you are intentionally stepping in it and not being nice.

Why don't you simply try staying on the subject, and drop the insults and know-it-all attitude?

If you want to argue over nonsense, just visit me in ARPF. Meanwhile I for one, and probably others would like to have a nice informative conversation about the Grendel/LBC. I for one also am not the least interested in your petty spite for AA.

It's real easy to see why Mr. Alexander has a problem with you. I'll bet you were a real pain in the neck and arsh for him.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
In case you didn't notice, DW, I try to keep the real controversy and personal attacks over in ARPF, and the stuff re guns and shooting sorta clean. The exception is carpetman and teancum. Now you add to the SH list.

The truth is I get along better, actually, with carpetman and teancum. At least we understand each other, and maintain a standoff. They are just dumbasses. You on the other hand are kinda weird and so full of it, and unpredictable. You bait with BS, then attack when another point of view or disagreement is presented. IMO, your posts are very misleading, and mostly not even on topic.

I play nice with those who will do likewise. IMO, you are intentionally stepping in it and not being nice.

Why don't you simply try staying on the subject, and drop the insults and know-it-all attitude?

If you want to argue over nonsense, just visit me in ARPF. Meanwhile I for one, and probably others would like to have a nice informative conversation about the Grendel/LBC. I for one also am not the least interested in your petty spite for AA. In fact, I don't care for any of your opinions.

It's real easy to see why Mr. Alexander has a problem with you. I'll bet you were a real pain in the neck and arsh for him.

KB

The reason being is I see through your line of bullshit. Just like in the deer thread craigster said you're just a smoke blower. He's correct. Only difference with me I never thought you knew anything.

It's easy to see what Woody at Lothar Walther doesn't like you.

You and Woody are the same species of snake, which is why I don't like either one of you. Both invent trouble out of nothing.

You can be the judge of my bullshit, and of course I'll be the judge of yours. Post some more of it, I'm bored. At one time I figured you had some interesting info to share, but you proved me wrong. Apparently you would rather sling shit and trump people than carry on a discussion. Whatever. It looks like a game of who will tire of it first. I'm disgusted but not tired.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
You and Woody are the same species of snake, which is why I don't like either one of you. Both invent trouble out of nothing.

You can be the judge of my bullshit, and of course I'll be the judge of yours. Post some more of it, I'm bored. At one time I figured you had some interesting info to share, but you proved me wrong. Apparently you would rather sling shit and trump people than carry on a discussion. Whatever. It looks like a game of who will tire of it first. I'm disgusted but not tired.

KB

You don't want information, you're in Alexanders pants from what I can see. The guy is a colossal lair. That's what I have against him. Take his early bolts for example. They were 5.56 bolts that had the face opened up for the Grendel larger case. He lied about recessing the face .011 to give it flex to withstand the lugs breaking for running a cartridge that is bit too much for the AR 15 bolt. Then how he tried to steal the glory away from Are Brennan who really designed the basis of the Grendel. Bill didn't add anything to it. It was a Finnish engineer at Lapau that tweaked it to it's final design. We won't get into how Les Baur, Satern Barrel, Lothar Walther, and a whole host of others dumped Bill for his fraudulent business practices. You talked about Pacific Reamers, call Dave Kiff, who owns them, and ask him what he has to say about Bill Alexander. Call Les Baur and Steve Satern up too see what they have to say. You don't have to believe me.

You remind of rcumugia or whatever his name was that got banned from here.

So I'm finished. You go on believing the 223 is and insufficient cartridge. Enjoy your Grendel.

Well there is one thing - I would believe Dave Kiff before you. Part of the reason is that he is discrete, and in my conversations with him he is very reluctant to talk bad about anyone, even Woody, and he rarely mentions names.

Of course I don't know the details, but it simply looks to me like those you mentioned simply dispised paying Royalties, and schemed a way around it by changing the neck and throat specs of the cartridge.

There are untold instances through history where someone saw a good idea of another person or company and also had the ability to envision new or full possibility with it, and take it to the next level. Such situations are always accompanied br resentfuf types and those who would destroy the dream out of spite. After all, the LBC version is simply taking the Original Grendel specs to the next level, and not coincidentally bypassing the Royalty issue without a court battle. So, who stole whose idea? What's tweaking and what's stealing and what's the difference?

As I said, I'm not really interested in the nasty business history and bad relations between competing parties, he said - they said shit. I'm interested in the cartridge and the rifles that shoot it, and the hunting to do with them.

This is a cartridge that doesn't deserve the strife and contest of its beginnings. Since Hornady is making ammo, let's hope it has a long and useful life and history be bygones. I have shot the Hornady ammo and found it to be accurate and effective on deer. I have five fresh boxes waiting for me in Georgia. I have no plans on setting up my reloading tools and bench in the forseeable future. It's gonna be factory ammo or none for a while.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Have you ever seen anyone shot with a 5.56/223?

No, but I've seen deer shot with a 223 and get away, mortally wounded.

Anyway, this thread is about the Grendel. Why do you invade it with BS about the 223 which I for one am sick of hearing about. I suspect others feel the same. The 223 ain't even close to being in the same league with the Grendel, no matter what the GD twist rate.

KB

A mortal wound results in death. Have you and your buddies ever bothered tracking and recovering the mortally wounded deer? Or do you just let them get away? If they got away, I think I just answered my own question.

You're full of it. Of course one tries his best to track or follow blood trail and recover. The thing is why engage in a scenario where it's inevitable?

IMO, a guy is just asking for a tough or impossible tracking job every so often by using a 223 --- UNLESS he really picks his shots and is lucky, and is using premium heavy bullets. Even then there will be failures. I simply don't believe a guy, such as yourself, who claims that the inadequacies and inevitable failures of the 223 can be mitigated by proper tracking technique or perseverance. That's exactly the kind of BS that gets me wound up about the 223.

Claiming 100 % success with a 223 IMO is simply a lie, or coming from someone very very lucky. With a 223, the odds are stacked too heavy for a loss of deer mortally wounded.

My point in comparison is that the odds are not so heavily stacked with the 6.5 Grendel, for several measurable reasons, having nothing to do with the human variable factors. The 6.5 is simply better suited for the job any way it's measured.

KB

Kablowey--You have called me a liar many times. I have ignored that. You are the liar. You start out claiming NO experience with a .223 and deer. Then you fabricate a sob story of your buddy shooting ONE. Now you see mortally wounded ones getting away. AH--why the hell would I lie about it? I have stated many times my dismal result with the ONE TIME .243 cast bullet. Hell if I were going to lie about something, that would be it. Gosh a bullet I cast worked great--NOT. Why would I have Winchester bulk packed 55 grain .22 cal bullets working 100% and my cast bullet failing miserably? I do believe you see deer getting away--you go out with an inaccurate .257R shoot at a bunch of deer and then learn---AFTER A BUDDY TELLS YOU that the gun is inaccurate.

carpetman, you are so full of chit and hardly worth responding to. Every time I give info about my personal experience, you and your buddy twist it and use it in personal attacks.

I told a story many many posts ago about witnissing deer shot with a 223, and getting away, but you dismissed it as not personal experience. And what's my buddy drinking got to do with anything re the performance and suitabily of deer cartridges? It's only useful for you to twist in your personal attacks.

You have said many times that the bullets you use, Winchester 55gr varmint bullets performed 100% for you and family and friends. Apparantly you have plenty to share from some bulk purchase. You also say that the varmint bullets mushroom just like a big game bullet. I simply don't believe you, and I do believe that you represent a large percentage of the type who use 223 for deer.

Ole teancum prides himself in using a 40gr Hornet bullet at long ranges, claiming asthonishing results.

Why are you chasing my posts around the forum and adding nothing to the conversation except personal attacks? Are you bored? You could go out and sight in your rifle with something other than varmint bullets.

KB

There is NOcaliber that is 100 percent guaranteed effective on deer. I've actually seen more deer need another shot with big magnum calibers. Yes some of shots were poor shot, but many were good shots too. In all honestly it appeared to me that the 30-30 and 35 Rem put whitetail deer down more effectively then most other calibers. One blowhard on the 6.5 Grendel forum claims the 6.5 Grendel as a great big game cartridge. One or two of them have shot elk with it at distance, but then again my friend did it with a 6.8 Rem to take some of the air out of their balloon. One of them is a big game hunter and he really promotes the 6.5 Grendel. I asked him "If you had a wounded Cape buffalo in tall grass what rifle would you go in with, a 375 Win Mag or a 6.5 Grendel?" We know his answer, but he sure had a lot of excuses.

Don't forget our forefathers harvested all the game we harvest today with less powerful and smaller caliber guns then we use today and to boot black powder with soft lead bullets.

Think of this KB, if you think using a 223 is inhumane then I throw at you using a bow and arrow.

Good discussion points.

I certainly agree with your comment re the 30-30 and 35 Rem. Nimrods today would do well to compare the ballistic specs of their choice to those two cartridges, especially within 100 yds. When considering the Grendel, I compared it to the 30-30 regarding energy out to 150 yds or so, about the limits of the 30-30. Although ft lbs are not everything, the Grendel compares favorably with the 30-30, especially after about 50 yds.

There are people who will push the limits of whatever cartridge they choose. For me, the outer limits of the Grendel is about 200 yds, and for use on deer and hogs or smaller game. I wouldn't use it on elk, although just like the 223 on deer, it would probably work OK most of the time.

I think it's sorta amusing when the archery comparison comes up, especially considering that such hunting tools have been used for several thousand years.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Good discussion points.

I certainly agree with your comment re the 30-30 and 35 Rem. Nimrods today would do well to compare the ballistic specs of their choice to those two cartridges, especially within 100 yds. When considering the Grendel, I compared it to the 30-30 regarding energy out to 150 yds or so, about the limits of the 30-30. Although ft lbs are not everything, the Grendel compares favorably with the 30-30, especially after about 50 yds.

There are people who will push the limits of whatever cartridge they choose. For me, the outer limits of the Grendel is about 200 yds, and for use on deer and hogs or smaller game. I wouldn't use it on elk, although just like the 223 on deer, it would probably work OK most of the time.

I think it's sorta amusing when the archery comparison comes up, especially considering that such hunting tools have been used for several thousand years.

KB

The thing I don't like the most about the bow is in most cases the animal doesn't drop in it's track, it runs off, bleeds outs, suffers (more on this later), and dies. Sometimes quite a distance, others quite short.

Sometimes I'll watch the hunting shows on TV. If they are archery for any game I will not. I'm sick of watching hunters hunt bear over bait from a tree stand. They shoot the bear and he runs off and you hearing him moaning and moaning, and moaning. Nope, not for me. I watched a TV show where a guy went after elephant with a bow. Oh he got one, after he shot it many many times. Not a nice thing to do to such a magnificent and intelligent animal in my opinion. Compare to our executions of criminal. We started out with gross means of ending their lives. Now we try to do it in the most humane and painless way, although I don't think we have accomplished that just yet. Don't you feel an animal deserves the same "instant" death in hunting?

One thing about the 6.5's, they have a wonderfully high BC. That 6.5 Grendel Elk hunter took the animal at 450 yards. The 6.8 friend took his at 410.

One last note, some hunters have taken up the spear. Saw a show on TV where a hunter was hunting Australian water buffalo with one. Nearly got his ass killed and had to shoot one at point blank with a large magnum pistol of some caliber. Is this all done because they just want to see if it can be done? At the expense of the animal? Sometimes at the expense of the hunter. I'm not an anti hunter, I just believe in harvesting the animal humanely as possible.

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
One thing about the 6.5's, they have a wonderfully high BC. That 6.5 Grendel Elk hunter took the animal at 450 yards. The 6.8 friend took his at 410.

Well, that was an interesting post and covered a lot. I quoted only the part of it that I felt like responding to, although overall the post caused me to think.

I suppose that I can relate to how you feel about watching outdoor shows about archery hunting because I feel the same way about those long range shooting at big game shows. I just can't stand to watch them. Generally though, I find the archery "hunter" who becomes proficient with his tools to be a type that is different compared to the average rifle hunter. All of the guys who are really into archery hunting, who I've known personally, are really admirable and skilled hunters and outdoorsmen.

Although the 6.5 and the 6.8 are capable of those long shots you described, I feel that is too far to make the attempt considering the energy levels available. For those type of shots, I definately would prefer something like the 338 WM. I think the Grendel is capable out to maybe 300 yds max on deer. It's just my opinion, but the numbers support it. Considering my hunting experiences, I can't even imagine a shot further than about 250 yds, so the Grendel fits within my style nicely.

Another thing about the Grendel that is obvious but worth mentioning is the mild blast and light recoil. It's a sweet cartridge to shoot. If a "hunter" person can't handle the recoil of the Grendel, then that person isn't ready to be a hunter, IMO. Dropping back to a milder kicking cartridge, to accomodate the inadequacies of the "hunter" is counterproductive, IMO.

KB

quote:

Another thing about the Grendel that is obvious but worth mentioning is the mild blast and light recoil. It's a sweet cartridge to shoot. If a "hunter" person can't handle the recoil of the Grendel, then that person isn't ready to be a hunter, IMO. Dropping back to a milder kicking cartridge, to accomodate the inadequacies of the "hunter" is counterproductive, IMO.

In my opinion not cartridge in the AR 15 has troublesome recoil except for the 50 Beowulf or cartridges in that category. The rest are pussy cats.

I have 6.8 SPC. Where I hunt, a 150 yards is a long shot so I loaded up some 130 core-lokts at about 2350 fps. Should be about as effective as a 30/30.

Scott--I would GUESS more effective than a 30-30. The reason I would THINK this is the flat nosed 30-30 bullets would lose a lot more velocity by 150 yards than what the spire points would lose. Thus flatter shooting and better chance of an accurate shot.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Scott--I would GUESS more effective than a 30-30. The reason I would THINK this is the flat nosed 30-30 bullets would lose a lot more velocity by 150 yards than what the spire points would lose. Thus flatter shooting and better chance of an accurate shot.

Ray you would guess wrong. These figures are generated from NIKON's ballistic program. First is a 6.8 with 130 grain at 2350 fps: 100 yards velocity dropped to 2081 fps and energy is 1250 foot pounds. At 200 yards: 1827 fps energy 963 foot pounds.

30-30 150 flat point. Going to give 100 and 200 yard results. At 100 yards 2021 fps energy 1250 foot pounds. At 200 yards 1827 fps energy 938.

Now take the Fusion ammo for the 30-30 with the polymer tips. At 100 yards 2091 fps energy 1457 foot pounds. At 200 yards 1811 fps energy 1159 foot pounds.

You see the standard flat point doesn't give up must to the 6.8 and in fact has more energy at 100 yards, but the Fusion ammo flat out beats the 6.8 at both 100 and 200 yards.