Well After deciding my new light weight rifle would be a 260 Remington. The question was, Mod.7 CDL or Mountain Rifle? After going back thru the forums history, mainly I was concerned about 20†barrel and velocity loss vs the slightly heavier Mtn Rifle and it's 22†barrel. That’s when the information packed post’s that were put up by other members dropped the bomb on me that the 1/9 twist Remington won’t stabilize 140grn bullets. For me the 140grn is my idea of the perfect combo..

Gidday Mike,

What are you aiming to use your new 260 on as most game upt to and including deer are better handled with a 120 - 130 gr projectiles rather than the 140.

You might need a 140 gr if you were to try for feral cattle or something in the 600 kilo plus class otherwise they are likely to be still opening up when the bullet exits the animal.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

To Be....

Don

Mike, all of my 6.5s (5 different cartridge types from 260-264WM)are 1:9 twist and I have had exactly "0" problems with 140 grain bullets not stabilizing, none, not one, zip, nada. The only thing I will say is that I don't drive them past about 3100 fps and that is in the 264Win Mag.

I would just try it, use slower powders for the heavier bullets (4831 and R322 have worked for me)and don't look back.

I too have had zero issues with 140s. My Remington 40x, 1 in 9 twist 260 loves 140gr Hornady A-Maxs and the 139 Lapua which are longer than any 140 hunting bullet. On the other hand the new 130gr Nosler Accubond should be the only bullet you would ever need for anything Elk and smaller.

MopaneMike wrote:

quote:

That’s when the information packed post’s that were put up by other members dropped the bomb on me that the 1/9 twist Remington won’t stabilize 140grn bullets

Someone fed you a line of bull.

Take it from someone who's had many different 6.5s in many different configurations over the years: the 1:9 WILL work for 140s. Period. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

I personally prefer a 1:8, but a 1:9 will do just fine.

God, I hope my .260 doesn't hear that it's not supposed to stabilize 140's in its 1/9 barrel. Its been doing a fabulous job.

Ok.... You guy's put that concern to rest..

Now I'm back to my original concern. Velocity loss of 20" vs 22" barrels.. I like the lines of the stock on the CDL much better than the Mountain rifle, but I prefer the 22" barrel of the mountain to the 20" of the CDL.

Oh... whats a poor boy to do...

Can you guy's give me some numbers on your 260's in both Mtn and CDL versions.. Or 20" vs 22" barrels.. Like to see some real world numbers.. Lets use 130grn as our base line.


Hamish.. Most likely I would use 130grn.. But I have alway's been a heavy for bore dia. kinda guy.. Just instinct I guess..

MopaneMike, I don't have a 260 Rem., but I do have two 6.5X55's one is a M96 mauser with a 20" BBL. the other is a Ruger 77 MKII with a 22" BBL. with a 120gr. bullet the diferance in FPS. is about 45 FPS. with my rifles. Not a lot there to worry about IMHO.

6.5 SWEDE

When I chrono'd my '96 swedes, one 21, one 24", there was about 100 fps at most difference. IIRC there was either 25 or 33 or so fps per inch difference.

SO, expect 50 fps at most difference in the 260 22 vs 20". I would not use less than 20" but would be content. I'd gladly trade the handiness of the CDL model 7 IF you are using it in a climbing stand or blind where getting a shorter bbl out of a window is handier. Blast is a little more.

Ideally I believe 260 and 6.5x55 have a happy medium at 23-34" if given choice balancing velocity, blast, and handiness, but I always have had a preference for shorter bbls for most applications if ballistics are acceptable and the balance is good.

6.5 BR wrote:

quote:

Ideally I believe 260 and 6.5x55 have a happy medium at 23-34" if given choice balancing velocity, blast, and handiness...

I wholeheartedly concur.

Your velocity loss between 20 and 22" will be minimal and will not be significant enough to lose any sleep over. After all, the game you shoot will never know the difference...

Coming from someone who uses handguns with much shorter barrels (Tomek) I agree, place the bullet and the difference in speed is irrelevant. My 6.5/308 was 23" and I loved it, this was before the intro of the 260. My 20" model 7 SS/Syn was a little louder, but my biggest complaint was it was muzzle light affecting my ability to hold as tight, and it did not shoot quite as tight as hoped for, though others experience differs. You might handle both guns and choose what handles best.

Love the feel and handiness of the model 7 CDL, but the 700 LSS was to me a wonderful platform in 260 or 7/08.

My beef in any Rem gun has been quality control on many of the more recent mfg guns so after being burned too many times, I choose NOT to spend my money on Rem. I cannot argue anyone who buys one and gets a satisfactory one.

My decision is a personal one on brand. I would happily own a Ruger 260 with preferred 8 twist, but a Sako or Kimber would not be overlooked either if I had the extra change and knew going in ideal weights with 9 twist are perhaps up to 130gr. Steyr, JAGD, and SAUER makes some high end 6.5x55 if you really want to go all out, not to mention Blaser (perhaps if I ever played POWERBALL and won!). I think the new 130 Accubond may be the overall best one bullet does it all for the moderate capacity 6.5's given ability to use it in either 8 or 9 twist, AND the shorter OAL's of 260's vs 6.5x55's. It seems on the surface to be a great all around bullet choice for any 6.5 application short of elephants!

Seriously Mike, if you want a rifle of the two you mentioned to do it all in all situations, I'd go the Laminated Stainless Mountain Rifle for the extra 'muzzle hang' in the event you need more steady hold on a longer shot. If you appreciate the quick handling of the short CDL M7, and don't need a rifle to shoot 300 yd plus, then you might chose what I think is a nice handling 'carbine' type rifle.

Mike I shoot the 700 Mountian in .260 I run 100's B tips and Partitions at 3250 give or take with H-414. 120 B tip and 125 Partitions with H-4831 and have been over 2900 with no problems. 129 Hornady's with RL-22 for 2880.

It is a great cartridge to load for with so many components it is almost impossible for me to stop tinkering with different combinations. I have been so pleased with what it has done with 100-125 grain bullets, I have not given 140 grain bullets any serious load work, shame on me.

I think you are going to be happy with the .260 once you get one.

How do the 100 grains work for deer?

Not only will the 1:9 stabilize a 140, Slingster (our late and much lamented friend Eric Ching) used 160 gr roundnose softs in his Model Seven scout rifle with good success. If you want light weight and a 22 inch barrel try the Kimber 84M; nice rifles.

I had a custom 9 twist in 23" 6.5/308, aka 260 Rem, and it did not stabilize well with 140's, would not group worth a darn.

I have heard 9" guns NOT working well with 140s', but sometimes working fine with 160's, I am sure their IS a difference comparing RN bullets to pointed bullets, and bearing surface on individual bullets vary.

I would say anyone NEEDING or desiring using bullets from 140-160 grain think hard before buying or building a 9 twist gun. MOST hunting needs can be met with 100-130's IMHO, but the 140 offer great performance in std. cup/core bullet. 156-160's do very well also, but trajectory may limit range.

As we can see, results vary from different users. My bullets were factory 140 Rem's, and I believe I loaded some 140 partitions that also did awful. Just reporting my experience.

I have a Kimber 84M Classic in .260 Rem with a 22" 1:9 twist. It did not shoot Remington 140gr factory loads well (it patterned like a shotgun) but they were not keyholing.

The Kimber does shoot handloads consisting of 129gr Hornady SPs/H4895SC/Fed 210s very well. That load is near max/max depending on which manual you reference.

I have not experimented with 140gr handloads in the Kimber yet because the 129s work so well. Maybe if the factory 140s had a tad more velocity, they would have grouped better. A future endeavor to fiddle with .

140gr Hornady SP/Re-22/Fed 210 handloads group wonderfully in my CZ550 FS in 6.5x55. It has a 20.5" 1:8.6 twist, which is slightly faster. The load it prefers is not a prairie scorcher velocity wise, however produces a fair amount of blast due to the shorter barrel. Goes to show each rifle is different.

The velocity lost to slightly shorter barrel is insignificant. Deer won't know the difference between a 22" barrel and a 20" barrel.

Mike,
I am just seeing your PM to me on this subject, and having time to answer it...

Ya know the 6.5 bore is a pretty accurate round.. my personal preference is a one in 8 twist, like on my two Rugers...

But to address the two rifles you speak of.. with a 22 inch barrel and a 20 inch barrel.. I really don't think one is going to handicap you or benefit you, over the other...

I guess the real answer is what comes to the shoulder best for you.. and how far are you going to be hauling it....

if the one in 9 twist stabilizes the 140s and 142s, then just smile... If they don't, then there are a lot of other fine bullets in 6.5 bore that they will stabilize...

available are the 125 grain Partition, the 129 grain Hornady SP, the 130 grain TSX and the 130 grain AccuBond.. that come to mind...

I myself, don't feel the need for some of those trendy bullets... and get along just fine with the 100 & 120 grain Ballistic Tips, the 100 grain Hornady SP...

out of my 22 inch barreled Ruger, my most frequently used load is 43.5 grains of IMR 4064 and a 100 grain bullet for an MV of 3350 fps...

any 120, I run those with a charge of 40 grains of powders from RL 15, W 748, BLC2, Varget, 4064, 4895, 3031..Benchmark.. all for an MV in the 2800 to 2900 fps range...

Light loads with a 100 grain BTip or a 120, with MVs around 1800 fps, have also proven to be quite lethal in the 100 to 150 yd ranges...

Granted the deer here are blacktails.. but they drop just like hit with a 180 grainer out of an 06... with a lot less muss and fuss....

Both the CDL and the Mountain rifles are beautiful rifles in my book!!!I don't see a downside to your dilemma...

either one and a 3 x 9 Leupold or Nikon.. and you are set in my book... and looking good doing it!!!

Gentelmen..

Thank you all for your advice and the sharing of your experiance...

Once again AR members are gonna cost me money!

Buy the mountain rifle and put it in CDL stock if the barrel length matters to you. FWIW that's what I did with my .280 Mountain Rifle.

I personally love the handling of 20" Model 7's and agree that the CDL stocks are very nice

quote:

Originally posted by Gaviidae_Esq.:
Buy the mountain rifle and put it in CDL stock if the barrel length matters to you. FWIW that's what I did with my .280 Mountain Rifle.

I personally love the handling of 20" Model 7's and agree that the CDL stocks are very nice

Y-know.... I was considering that exact thing.. But was wondering if it would be a drop-in fit

I've owned around 50 firearms in 260, currently have 16, and think that the Remington 700 LSS MR in 260 is about as close to a perfect a factory production rifle as you're likely to find.

In 260 my recommendations are:

Rifle: Remington 700 LSS MR.
Scope: Leupold of your choice.
Mounts: Warne.
Cases: Winchester or Norma 243.
Bullets: 95 grain VMax, 120 grain BT, 129 grain SpirePoint or SSt, and the 140 grain Partition.

Jeff

260Remguy,

I have heard the Rem brass is good, have you tried? Any sorting needed? I used some very early production in my 6.5/308 but not enough to know quality, and current production may be different, for better or worse?

Do know FC 308 was too tight to chamber and I don't turn necks. Used 243 brass in past.

Lastly, Nosler is mfg brass, but the cost is ridiculous as it seems with everything that has their name on it! Unsure on how good it is.

While I can't vouch for the other brands offered in .260, the Ruger 77 that I bought for my wife a few years ago has been a pleasure to shoot. Its killed 4 deer in 3 seasons and all were one shot kills ranging from 40 yards out to a hundred or so. I've got it down to shooting an inch at a hundred yards but it took a few loads to get it there.

I would like to add a couple of points to what others here have said:

1. Berger specifies a 1 in 9 inch of faster twist to stabilize their very long 140 grain VLD bullets, having a B.C. of .640. That's considerably higher than any hunting bullet I am aware of. While some individual rifles may have or have had problems stabilizing 140s, that's an individual barrel problem and not a twist rate issue that can be expanded to cover all barrels with a 1 in 9 inch twist rate.

2. On the 20 vs 22 inch barrel concerns, I am also a handgun hunter. I am shooting a 13 inch barreled 6.5 and getting more than 2,500 fps of velocity with 140s out of that barrel. Either the 20 or 22 (or any other barrel length you could wish for) should do you just fine in a 6.5. Balance and handling are far more important than any slight loss in velocity. There is more individual barrel velocity variation with the same length barrels than you will be able to tell between a 20 and a 22 inch set of barrels. Get what ever handles the best for you. The deer will never know the difference...Rusty.

Rusty, are you using a 9 twist in your handguns?

My experience was in rifles, and with Rem Corelokts, and partitions with 9 twists. I do agree different barrels vary, in velocity and perhaps in accuracy with given specific barrel, but I think if one were using a hot 6.5 like /06 or 284 case, than a 9 twist is more likely to do well with 140's but at a slightly lower velocity, the RPM's will drop, so a 260 or 6.5x55 will not do quite as much velocity, therefore specific bullets will act differently at lower speeds.

I say try out each gun, but if given the choice in a production or custom barrel, I'd pick an 8 twist every time, if not the 7.5-7.7 that the original '94 and '96 mausers had. I believe Howa uses 9 in the x55, as Rem does in 260. Funny the classic x55 700 Rem was 8 twist. Rem in my opinion should have used 8 twist in the 260 as Ruger did, Browning on the other hand used a 10 twist I believe in their 1885 low wall, and perhaps a 9 in the abolts-but they too might have been 10. Don't have an older catalog since they are not mfg now.

CZ uses 8.6 in x55's, where Sako does 9 with 260's and 8 with x55 like Tikka.

It seems whether 308 or 300 magnum, MOST .308 barrels seem to come in 10 twist.

I wish the industry would have standardized on 8 for all 6.5mm's but that is my opinion. The 284 cased, and 264 mag's might get pressure problems with more resistance to overcome using faster twists, so perhaps that was an issue with using the faster twists there.

Nonetheless, given the great bullets UP to 130 grains on the market now, hunters should find a good bullet that is accurate and deadly on most game shot with 6.5's if twist rates restrict acceptable accuracy with heavier bullets.

I started reloading so long ago that I was brain washed by reading Jack O'C's books and since JO'C used Winchester/Olin brass, I have always used Winchester/Olin brass when it was available or could be easily converted.

I got my 1st 260 rifle, a Remington 7 stainless synthetic in 10/97, before Remington had the ammunition production up to speed, so I had to start loading with 243 brass if I wanted to shoot the rifle. Winchester/Olin brass, H4895, and 129 grain Hornadys have proven themselves over and over again.

Jeff

My .260 doesn't know it's not supposed to like 140 grain bullets, It Loves 140 grain Remington Factory CoreLokts!! Sure, its a custom shop M7 (MS), and it is the easiest rifle I've ever tried to zero and set up! Oh, did I mention that it just slaps our Texas deer dead on the spot?

For plain old meat on the table shooting, the .260 rules! It ain't fancy, it ain't unique, but it sure does the job!!!

LLS

260 guy,

I DO usually prefer WW brass whenever I can get it, but since last fooling with the 260, I have heard some good reports on Rem brass, so I bought some to try in a new Sako 75 SS varmint.......9 twist, but I will be content if I am limited to 130gr, have heard people using the Rem700 VLS 26" I believe, pushing top speeds doing good with 140-142.

In fairness to the corelokts, the first batch of 260 ammo was reported in major gun mags to NOT be up to spec and very slow, that may have accounted for my accuracy ills. Newer ammo or reloads with 140 RP corelokts may be much better, a few hundred fps mv can change the rpm enough to make the difference I believe.

If my Sako would shoot 140 AMAX, I might use it for longish deer shots, which is the type of hunting I plan for it, too heavy to tote around...but I am hoping for good things out of it.....never had a bad Sako.

I have some new and used WW 243 brass, so I will likely try some. I may still have some FC brass in either 243 or 308 or both that was used in the past in my 6.5/308 so I will dig it out when I get time to start some testing. Hoping for good things.

BTW, the 129 was a favorite of mine, great speed-close to the 120's, but better bc/sd than lighter pills. Always very accurate, and back then 12-13 bucks a box.......should have invested in lead, not gold, just kidding, but components have skyrocketed.....another thread.

sierra, do the MS have 20" bbls? Nice configured gun for that ctg. Wish Ruger made the #1 RSI in a 6.5mm.

Re: 260 brass, if considering Rem, Pete, moderator posted a link on the 260AI thread, good section here about sorting Rem brass and success with it. May have to invest in Sinclair tools.....

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek046.html

quote:

Originally posted by MopaneMike:
Well After deciding my new light weight rifle would be a 260 Remington. The question was, Mod.7 CDL or Mountain Rifle? After going back thru the forums history, mainly I was concerned about 20†barrel and velocity loss vs the slightly heavier Mtn Rifle and it's 22†barrel. That’s when the information packed post’s that were put up by other members dropped the bomb on me that the 1/9 twist Remington won’t stabilize 140grn bullets. For me the 140grn is my idea of the perfect combo..

Who told you a 1/9" twist won't stabilize a 140-grain 6.5mm bullet?? Wht a crock! It certainly WILL! The .264 Win. Mag. was made with a 1/9" twist and there were two factory loads: a 100-grainer and a 140. Both work.

140-grain handloads with velocities as low as 2600 FPS also work in a 1/9" twist.

quote:

I have heard 9" guns NOT working well with 140s', but sometimes working fine with 160's, I am sure their IS a difference comparing RN bullets to pointed bullets, and bearing surface on individual bullets vary.

Whether a bullet will be stabilized in a given twist or not depends on it's length, not it's weight. It is possible that a long, 140-grain 6.5mm spitzer boattail bullet might be longer than a 160-grain blunt round-nose.....

This seems to be a gray area, different results by many shooters, of various 6.5 cartridges shooting different twists, different velocities, and different bullets.

I think it would be safe to say that an 8 twist SHOULD stabilize most all 6.5 bullets but a 9 may or may not. In MY case, it did not, BUT in others they do. I expect sub moa groups, and had them up to 129's in my 9" 260, but 140 shot 1.5-2.5" or larger groups, in my opinion due to a combo of twist used, bullet used, and velocity shot. Just my experience. If one wants a factory model in 9" by all means get it, I did in a Sako but I went into the purchase willing to accept that it may not shoot heavier than 130's and I was willing to accept it based on my uses. If I built a 6.5 custom, and KNEW I needed to shoot 140-160gr, than I would NOT select anything slower than an 8 twist.

That is MY feeling on it based on my experience. I realize others vary. El Dequello, I guess my comment was based more on the 'generalization' that normally, heavier bullets are longer, and need faster twists. Not always. Then you get into barnes and they are longer for their weight, throws a kink into the equation.

I would believe there are 9 twist 260 guns that handle 140s and some don't. This is based not only on my experience but others. I think velocity at muzzle has a large bearing on accuracy in guns with that twist rate. I have NO doubt on a 264 working with 9 twist, but RPM's are higher than a slower bullet from a smaller cartridge, and things change.

Perhaps the 2 brands of 140s I shot need more twist than other brands, PERHAPS I should distinguish between 'stabilize' and shooting 'accurately' as I don't recall my bullets making key holes (though it seems there was evidence of some yaw), but they would not group anywhere near my needs and I only choose ammo that is accurate.

I know seafire is happy with his 'throated out' Rugers that have 8 twist, handles ALL the heavies fine. That said, he praises 100gr bullets on deer, and really I just don't read any bad reports on deer shot with 6.5's with ANY bullet weight so for hunters after deer sized game, it does not seem to be an issue. Read years ago an article titled something like, "One bullet, One Load" author used the 125 grain Partition in 6.5x55 and the 6.5/06, shot many large mulies and even elk. Never had a problem, fast kills, no losses. That said, if I were forced to choose one bullet for all in hunting with 6.5's, I would look hard at the 130 accubond or perhaps a barnes. That said, if someone said I had to live with 129 spirepoint hornady, the old original, I think it would serve fine at modest speeds of say 2800-2850 fps in a 260 or 6.5x55 and I would likely never be let down in the field. For a cheap bullet, I flattened 3 deer with 6.5x55 and 120 corelokt handloads. All one shot kills. Would not be surprised a 140 corelokt would do good work on larger game even at modest speeds. One concern for me, when using heavier bullets, is if I am using what some may consider a 'marginal twist' and it is borderline for stability and accuracy, what happens after impact? Does the bullet stay spinning well enough to stay nose forward for optimum straight line penetration and radial damage? That I think about. Never would I worry if I am using an old mauser with 7.5" or an 8 twist no matter the bullet. I think any 'extra RPM's' given to modest capacity 6.5's, serve to if anything increase centrifugal force on the bullet, which theoretically and probably would bear out in scientific testing, INCREASE bullet upset, and increase radial damage. Much has been written on this subject re: 6.5 mm's esp. when the rifle spoken about was a Swedish Mauser 6.5x55 using 7.5 - 7.7 twist. I think the theory is a very plausible one and ALWAYS would choose a twist faster than one I might have to wonder about, when given a choice.

Bullet choices and twist rate choices are a preference, but again it seems most all 6.5 shooters of any cartridge/bullet combo are happy with what their rifle does in the field. I say use what is accurate in YOUR specific rifle, and what you feel comfortable with, chance are it will work fine if you place your shot. Mild recoil from 6.5's is often beneficial to field accuracy and we all know what that means to putting game down.

I always enjoy hearing others experiences. Great to learn more so thanks for the post.

6.5BR,

Sir, very well said and thought inspiring.. You get well deserved double gold stars for taking the time and thought for writing such an insightful post..

Thank you.

Thanks very much for the reply, if we could only get paid for what we know, writing about it! I know some do, but its nice having a two way exchange of info/experience here.

I think everyone raises their satisfaction in the sport when they learn more, and reap the benefits. Have a great day.

The Remington 7 MS has a 20" barrel with a slightly larger/heavier contour than the standard 20" Remington 7 barrels.

I wanted a stainless 7 MS, but the Remington Custom Shop wouldn't make it, so I had to find a 7 MS laminated stock and build my own. I bought a 7 MS laminated stock and 7mm-08 barrel from a 'smith who was using the action to build a custom rifle. Heck of an expensive way to get a 7 action, as I paid $150+/- for the stock and barrel!

Jeff

So did you custom barrel a 7 action I assume? I did a 7mm BR, shoots better than I.....now putting a mannlicher stock on mine would really be having something different in the woods! I doubt many guys carry 7BR rifles in the field, a few hand rifles.....xp-100's.

No, I just glass bedded a standard Remington 7 stainless 260 barreled action into the laminated mannlicher stock. I don't recall ever running into another hunter equiped with a mannlicher stocked rifle while hunting and only once, that I recall, running into another hunter with a 260.

The 260 is like the 25 WSSM, in that if you've tried it, you probably like it and if you haven't, you probably don't like it based on what you've heard.

Jeff

DPMS is killing me with their new AR260 with 24 inch barrel and 1 in 7.5 twist. Fortunately for me I reload and don't like the idea of brass thrown everywhere, or the possibility of full length sizing with small base dies. (Think of how many swede's that 1200 bucks would buy anyway!)

Saw that DPMS at the SHOT show, and if I had access for free quality ammo, that would be given a good trial run.

Thanks for your reply 260guy, I happened to be using a mannlicher #1 in 243 last year, barnes x 85gr FLATTENED a hog at 240 yds....amazing what shot placement and correct bullet choice for application will do. I built a 6.5/308 before Rem did the 260, and have to say, next to the 6BR, it was the most enjoyable rifle to shoot at the bench. Accurate/mild recoil knowing you were throwing more lead than a 243 for those times when you want it.