Been challenging some of the internet hunting forum self proclaimed experts/influencers on the merits of hunting grizzly/brown bears with a .223. How many grizzly/brown bear guides allow or advocate hunting these bears with a .223? So far these self proclaimed internet hunting shooting experts are arguing for the use of a .223 as a great brown bear option, but they have never even hunted a grizzly/brown bear let alone killed one. The latest… lol is they are telling me they have “course work” proving their expertise. I have killed big mule deer with my 22-250 but would never consider hunting a mountain grizzly or a coastal brown bear with a .224 bullet.The main self proclaimed internet expert/influencer know it all is over on Rokslide and goes by Formidilusus . I don’t believe this person has been on more than one or two western big game hunts, maybe one elk hunt, he has a following of a flock of sheep that listen to his every word on Rokslide. I called B.S. to several of his ramblings. I am 100% sure this guy has zero experience but yet he is spouting off about things he has zero hunting/life experiences on. Anyone else get annoyed with these self proclaimed internet experts and call them out and say enough……… B.S.?

Well it work yes.

Would it, should it be the first choice.

Not with most thinking men.

But then if you want to pay for the hunt and limited me to a 223.

I well take you up on it.

One of my firm rules is to never argue on the internet with idiots, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Guys,

This is one thing I like about AR is there are a lot of members that do have the real world experience. You can believe most of what you read on AR. If someone starts spewing BS they get called out on it pretty quickly as the members will know it is BS.

As far as the 223 for bears goes I don't think any bear guide would ever recommend a 223. I'd tackle about anything with a 30-06 but not a 223.

Mark

Just because it can or could be done does not make it a good idea.
You can kill big brown bears with a 9mm handgun too, but it certainly would not be my choice for hunting them

I only use my old .222 rifle on all my bear hunts. "Course, last time I looked at the head stamp, it said "416."

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Just because it can or could be done does not make it a good idea.
You can kill big brown bears with a 9mm handgun too, but it certainly would not be my choice for hunting them

Bingo.

Id suggest you save the last shot for yourself.

I dimly remember reading about Inuit hunters using 222 Remington or maybe 223 for polar bears.
I'd pass on that if I had an alternative...

There are no Brown Bears in Africa, but if there were, I’m sure they’d fall under the ‘Big 5’ or ‘Big 7’ category, which in most countries require a minimum of 375 (or 9.3) caliber, with energy added requirements. That’s a lot of collective wisdom over a couple of centuries.

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
I dimly remember reading about Inuit hunters using 222 Remington or maybe 223 for polar bears.
I'd pass on that if I had an alternative...

Generally, they are on a snowmobile. At least that is what one told me

Most are in an Igloo sleeping or whatever Inuit's do on cold winter nights, bear begins to dig them out and they shoot the bear when he sticks his head in the hole..True story...

People do some very stupid things!

As an example-----Many people voted for Joe Biden and will also vote for Kamela (sperm bank) Harris.

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
There are no Brown Bears in Africa, but if there were, I’m sure they’d fall under the ‘Big 5’ or ‘Big 7’ category, which in most countries require a minimum of 375 (or 9.3) caliber, with energy added requirements. That’s a lot of collective wisdom over a couple of centuries.

Just collective government interference in ones personnel choices.

Caliber restrictions are arbitrary BS made by those who do not understand ballistics. Those who want to control firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Most are in an Igloo sleeping or whatever Inuit's do on cold winter nights, bear begins to dig them out and they shoot the bear when he sticks his head in the hole..True story...

Well, the proof is in the pudding as they say. Let those who think the .223 is adequate, go out and hunt a brown or grizzly bear with it. And to prove their point, if they have a guide, limit them to the .223 and see how many guides would do this. If they don't have a guide, but want someone to back them up, well the same rule applies...both use .223...they can even share ammo!

Have we just run out of intelligent conversation or what?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Have we just run out of intelligent conversation or what?

Ray,
There are a few on Rokslide who have a lot of big game hunting experience like AK Doc, but overall Rokslide is a group of followers with little to none in the way of hunting experiences . There are some knowledgeable game wardens, guides, area locals, experienced back packers, indigenous people with hunting experiences, bush pilots, outfitters, trappers etc. who have interesting experiences and information to contribute

There are others like This Formidilosus who is one of the self proclaimed internet experts a Super Moderators on Rokslide and is one of the self proclaimed internet hunting experts. From his lengthy full of drama elk hunting story over on the Campfire, to his unknowledgeable comments about elk hunting seasons, and his failures to document any hunting experiences, clueless about bush flying, makes you wonder why this guy is on hunting pod casts and why anyone follows his comments and advice. I have found only one documented hunting photo of Formidilous, that of a 3x4 elk.

Try to challenge these self proclaimed internet experts over on Rokslide or 24 Campfire, and many of their flock who are mostly clueless ,comes to their defense and it turns into a total sh** show LOL

4WD

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Have we just run out of intelligent conversation or what?

The whole idea of hunting Brown/Grizzly bear with a .223 is Unintelligent conversation !!!

Hip

In an old handloader article.
I think it was Vern O'brien with a picture of him holding a rifle in 17 javelina, and a big brown bear.
The caption was " vern holding his rifle for the last time, having lost a bet to his guide who killed this big bear with a shot to the head with the 17.
Depends on the shot, and the man, I would say.

Some genius hunting coastal griz with a 223 sounds like fodder for the next jackass movie to me. Please let me know when the video surfaces.

A responsible hunter has (or should have) a deep seated obligation to disptach game as quickly and humanely as possible.

This includes using a cartidge capable of attaining that goal.

To deiberately igbnore these simple rules is beyond stupid..He should have that pea shooter wrapped up in a ight little ball and deposited where the sun don't shine

quote:

A responsible hunter has (or should have) a deep seated obligation to disptach game as quickly and humanely as possible.

This includes using a cartidge capable of attaining that goal.

This tidbit is and can be very situational.

Depending on so many factors that it can change in a moment.

Yeah...what the hell; do I know....

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Have we just run out of intelligent conversation or what?

^^^^This^^^^ What a bullshit topic.

The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject

Marcus Aurelius

Rural Alaskans have been using small caliber rifles on big game successfully for decades.
With correct bullet placement and penetration one can certainly get by.
One of the most popular stars of TV mountain men uses his 22/250 for everything from caribou and moose to grizzlies.
Many successful rural caribou hunters, who actually live off their hunting skills, swear by the .223. And a few even use the 22 Hornet!

I have personally taken caribou with my 17 Remington

Again, it’s bullet placement and penetration that counts.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject

Marcus Aurelius

Rural Alaskans have been using small caliber rifles on big game successfully for decades.
With correct bullet placement and penetration one can certainly get by.
One of the most popular stars of TV mountain men uses his 22/250 for everything from caribou and moose to grizzlies.
Many successful rural caribou hunters, who actually live off their hunting skills, swear by the .223. And a few even use the 22 Hornet!

I have personally taken caribou with my 17 Remington

Again, it’s bullet placement and penetration that counts.

While I agree with what you are saying Phil...I just don't believe in promoting it. I spent a lot of time in the north guiding and hunting with Dene and Inuit. While some were good at putting caribou, etc down with the smaller calibre cartridges, I also saw a lot of wounded game. The last polar bear that bit the dust while I was around for it, was shot 8 times with a .243 Win. Pushed by a snow machine, first one in the rear end to stop it and then a bunch more before it expired...all while the hunter was on a snowmobile. This was legally ok for an Inuit, read card carrying subsistence hunt, but completely against the law if the shooter was a guided non-resident.

I have seen great shooting on some caribou by First Nations members with .222's and .223's, and complete three ring circuses on other occasions. Same can be said of course with other hunters using bigger cartridges, but I just don't want people who are not experienced thinking they are ready to roll with their .223 for a grizzly hunt. Some jurisdictions would not allow it anyways due to calibre restrictions for big game.

But that is just my opinion and we all know what opinions are worth.

I am not promoting nor recommending the use of small calibers. But I am reminding folks on here that it’s more about the Indian than the arrow.

A good, competent and responsible hunter can get by with the tools at hand. And that doesn’t make them irresponsible!

Many that are advocating the shooting of Mtn grizzly and brown bear with a .223 have never been on a wilderness grizzly or brown bear hunt let alone been in a real world situation to shoot one.

The objections I have are with these wannabe self proclaimed internet influencers/experts with thousands of posts , doing you tube videos that doesn’t even show the proclaimed experts face, and as moderators/influencers on the hunting forums such as Rokslide. Again these self proclaimed internet experts have never hunted a grizzly in their short careers, but are giving advice as experts……LOL

Then even more comical, is that you get the flock of followers of these self proclaimed internet hunting experts, who follow every word, but they too have zero life experiences hunting grizzly or brown bears , but they pile on in the defense of these inexperienced self proclaimed internet hunting experts, as if they know what they are talking about too!

Sure people have killed Cape buffalo with a .17 REM. When I was growing up in Montanna I used a 22-250 to kill 300 lb mule deer and lots of pronghorn. A lot to be said about bullet placement and type of bullet. I used the 55 grain REM Cor-Lokt. When I started bull elk hunting I moved up to a .270 Win and 7MM Mag. I have been around and hunted Mtn grizzly for 40 years. Many situations a .223 REM would not be a first choice nor in my opinion would I recommend a .223 as a all around big bear gun. Under optimal conditions or under self defense you can use about anything available to you . But recommending a .223 to hunt Mtn grizzly or brown bears in my opinion is reckless and probably a set up for a lot of bears to walk away wounded/injured to die a slow and suffering death.

4WD

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The opinion of 10,000 men is of no value if none of them know anything about the subject

Marcus Aurelius

Rural Alaskans have been using small caliber rifles on big game successfully for decades.
With correct bullet placement and penetration one can certainly get by.
One of the most popular stars of TV mountain men uses his 22/250 for everything from caribou and moose to grizzlies.
Many successful rural caribou hunters, who actually live off their hunting skills, swear by the .223. And a few even use the 22 Hornet!

I have personally taken caribou with my 17 Remington

Again, it’s bullet placement and penetration that counts.

What bullet would be appropriate for a grizzly from a 22-250 ? All shots behind the shoulder ? Head shot ?
Thanks in advance for your reply.

I am sure either will work.

quote:

What bullet would be appropriate for a grizzly from a 22-250 ? All shots behind the shoulder ? Head shot ?
Thanks in advance for your reply.

ANY WAY out of a fast twist barrel the 70gr TSX would be the ticket.

quote:

Originally posted by 4WD:
Many that are advocating the shooting of Mtn grizzly and brown bear with a .223 have never been on a wilderness grizzly or brown bear hunt let alone been in a real world situation to shoot one.

4WD

Very True, but in the other hand neither have the vast majority of those saying it can’t, or shouldn’t, be done.

Its done a lot more common than most internet experts realize

Phil,
You must have enough stories, information, guiding tails, gun crank knowledge, bear occurrences,
and general practical common sense to write a couple of books about your hunting, fishing, flying
adventures in the Alaskan bush and elsewhere. Many years ago my brother sent me “ The Last of the Great
Brown Bear Men”. I really enjoyed that book and have reread it several times.
4WD

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
In an old handloader article.
I think it was Vern O'brien with a picture of him holding a rifle in 17 javelina, and a big brown bear.
The caption was " vern holding his rifle for the last time, having lost a bet to his guide who killed this big bear with a shot to the head with the 17.
Depends on the shot, and the man, I would say.

Close.....but it was their bush pilot,Butch Vent,who shot the bear with an O'Brien 17 Magnum(17-222 Magnum)at about 40 yards. The stunt required two shots.....one in the ear, and one between the eye and ear.

Kevin

quote:

The stunt required two shots.....one in the ear, and one between the eye and ear.

Two shots big deal.

A lot of game requires more then one shot.

Belle twin shot a world record grizzly with a single shot 22rf with loaded with longs.

Most likely dead on the first shot. but she shot it many times to make sure.

Here is the story.

https://www.ammoland.com/2017/...rd-grizzly-and-more/

Shooting critters more then once is just a good habit to be in.

Well hell, they might as well just lift all minimum caliber regulations in Africa and let people start using their varmint rifles on the big five. Obviously there is no good reason for having said regulations. People just need to learn how to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
Well hell, they might as well just lift all minimum caliber regulations in Africa and let people start using their varmint rifles on the big five. Obviously there is no good reason for having said regulations. People just need to learn how to shoot.

There is a very good reason Government control.

Other than that hard to think of any.

Dead moose with a 224 ARC

https://www.outdoorlife.com/gu...th-the-22-arc-video/

This is a true story.

My dad and two brothers use to run an outfitting business in Montana’s Bob marshal wilderness back in the 1950 and 60’s when you could hunt grizzlies. My dad and one brother specialized in deer and elk and the other brother specialized in grizzles. They would usually only take 2 or 3 bear hunters every year and had a pretty good success rate. One season all the bear hunters had already gotten their bears so there was no bear hunters in camp. My one uncle was helping the elk hunters when he found where a good grizzly had made a kill (elk) and had cashed it. Hunting bear cashes was a great way to get a good bear so my uncle asked one of his guides named Jerry if he wanted to take a grizzly. Jerry had taken several bears before so told him yes he wanted the bear. Jerry had two rifles he hunted with, a 270 and a 22LR, both looked a lot alike. The next day grabbing guns they snuck in on the bear cashe and found a spot about 20 yards away behind a big log that they could hide behind and give them a rest. After about an hour the bear came into the kill, my uncle whispered to Jerry to take the bear, Jerry picked up his rifle and started to aim when my uncle saw to his horror that Jerry had the 22 and not the 270. My uncle elbowed Jerry hard and told him he grabbed the wrong gun and he had the 22. Jerry hissed back “Shut up I know it” My uncle was shooting a 300H&H so he prepared to defend them after Jerry pissed off the bear. Jerry took a very long time to shoot, at the shot the bear dropped in his tracks as if hit by a bolt of lightning. To say my uncle was dumfounded is an understatement. After confirming the bear was done my uncle asked Jerry why he took the 22 instead of his 270. Jerry replied that the reason was that the 270 was not enough gun to take a grizzly with. My uncle is even more confused now, so he again asked if a 270 is not big enough why would you take a 22? Jerries reply was that a 22 works better for him in this case on bears. At this point I think Jerry was just having fun with my uncle. Eventually Jerry explained his logic to my uncle, hear is what he said.

On a grizzly cashe at 20 yards there is no time for a second shot, you have to kill the bear immediately. Most of the time a 270 to the body will not kill it quick enough so I use a 22 knowing I only have one shot. At 20 yards I shoot more accurately with the 22 than I do with the 270. That one shot has to be perfect so I shoot tor the eye, I wait until the head is at the perfect angle. If the shot is perfect it only has to penetrate 3 or 4 inch to get to the brain. I know that I can do that every time with the 22 and could not with the 270.

It turns out that this was the 4th or 5th grizzly Jerry had taken in the same manner with his 22. My uncle could never bring himself to try this but he did respect Jerry for doing it his way.