Yes, I know Nosler standardized the .280 AI and some will say that the .375 and .300 H&H were "AI"'d by Weatherby.....but specifically the most successful "AI" of them all.....the .257 Roberts AI has never been standardized.....

If, in fact, the .257 Roberts AI shoots like a .257 Weatherby (or close to it) then one might assume that at least Remington would have bought it out as a standard cartridge.....

My question....why is it still a wildcat?

Well the 257AI would have been in competition with the 25-06 Remington. Plus the gun rags all said the squared case could cause feeding issues. That is until they came up with the short magnums.

quote:

Well the 257AI would have been in competition with the 25-06 Remington.

Well, the claims I've read are that the .257 Roberts AI outruns the .25-06 and was around a long time before the .25-06 was standardized by Remington.....

Again....if the .257 Roberts AI is as good as is claimed.....why wasn't it given preference to the .25-06?.....and someone could still bring it forward as a standard.....but no one does.

I assure you that if Remington (or anyone) bought it out claiming shooting like a .257 Weatherby, it'd sell like mad!

280 AI is now a commercial cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
280 AI is now a commercial cartridge.

That was noted in my initial post.....

I must say also that Nosler is the only one chambering it.....to their credit they also make the ammo....I salute them for it!

Vapo, Brain fart...I must have jumped right to the "good stuff" !

I have a .257AI with a 26 inch tube. It does not shoot right there with a .257 Wby.

With 115 grain pills I get 2840 fps. That is still less than the 25-06.

Less powder and maybe longer barrel life and it fit in an intermediate length Mauser action. The latter being why I built it. 25-06 would not fit unless I really set bullets deep.

Here are the comparative case capacities.

When loaded to equal pressures, the 257AI (although it is my favorite cartridge) is still shy of the 25/06 and not even close to the 257WM.

257 Roberts: 55.8gr
257 Roberts Imp: 59.8gr
25-06Rem: 66.1gr
257Wby: 76.9g

hmm, i think that's just overly critical reading

300 wweatherby .. in fact, all the HH based weatherbys .. 270, 7mm, 300, 340, 375 ....

all the imperial mags
all the rums (same thing, btw)
all the WSM
all the wssm
saum
even the 25 wssm ...
all the 375 ruger based rounds.. and rcm, and 416 ruger
416 rem, 458 lott. and CERTAINLY the 470 capstick

308 marlin ....
307 win
375 win (high pressure, shorter case)
all of my round are "ai'ed" to the max,, if by that we mean minimum body taper

6.8spc .. 458 socom ... etc etc etc

every PPC, BR, and "norma"

in fact, the rare thing is a modern and tapered case

7hmr, 475 linebaigh, 480 ruger... 500/416/...

heh, 505 gibs, 416 rugby, and 500 jeffe are pretty well low tapered cases.. some with sharp shoulders

all in all, when on looks back, the 270 seems to be the great big seller of the non improved cases, yeah?

quote:

If, in fact, the .257 Roberts AI shoots like a .257 Weatherby (or close to it) then one might assume that at least Remington would have bought it out as a standard cartridge

Of the AIs the 257AI is my favorite. With light bullets the 257AI gives up 100-150FPS to the Wby heavier bullets the difference gets greater. Yes you have to burn a lot more powder in the Wby.

I agree the 257AI is a great round. Burns far less powder and barrels. Can it kill just as well as the 25-06 and 257Wby yep in most cases. But at equal pressure equal barrels case capacity will win 99.9% of the time. Speaking from my own testing the majority of the gain of a 257AI over a 257Roberts is pressure related. Yes you do gain from capacity a little more than the 06 cases but the majority is pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
hmm, i think that's just overly critical reading

300 wweatherby .. in fact, all the HH based weatherbys .. 270, 7mm, 300, 340, 375 ....

all the imperial mags
all the rums (same thing, btw)
all the WSM
all the wssm
saum
even the 25 wssm ...
all the 375 ruger based rounds.. and rcm, and 416 ruger
416 rem, 458 lott. and CERTAINLY the 470 capstick

308 marlin ....
307 win
375 win (high pressure, shorter case)
all of my round are "ai'ed" to the max,, if by that we mean minimum body taper

6.8spc .. 458 socom ... etc etc etc

every PPC, BR, and "norma"

in fact, the rare thing is a modern and tapered case

7hmr, 475 linebaigh, 480 ruger... 500/416/...

heh, 505 gibs, 416 rugby, and 500 jeffe are pretty well low tapered cases.. some with sharp shoulders

all in all, when on looks back, the 270 seems to be the great big seller of the non improved cases, yeah?

Um...well....interesting but it doesn't address my question which is:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
but specifically the most successful "AI" of them all.....the .257 Roberts AI has never been standardized.....

If, in fact, the .257 Roberts AI shoots like a .257 Weatherby (or close to it) then one might assume that at least Remington would have bought it out as a standard cartridge.....

My question....why is it still a wildcat?

Becasue the marketing folks at the major gun companies don't think it would produce enough new guns or ammo sales to provide an adequate return on investment. Simple as that.

We can argue until the cows come home whether they are right or wrong!

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
Becasue the marketing folks at the major gun companies don't think it would produce enough new guns or ammo sales to provide an adequate return on investment. Simple as that.

We can argue until the cows come home whether they are right or wrong!

+1
Arms companies make what will sell, or they go belly up.
The VP of Marketing and Sales has his ass on the line. If he endorses a loser, he will be looking for a new job.
I can ruminate all day long about what AI would sell, but, until the Marketing guys get on board with my thinking, it ain't gonna be built.
I have two rifles in AI, a 223, and a 250 Savage. That will probably be it for AI's at my house.

Don

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
Becasue the marketing folks at the major gun companies don't think it would produce enough new guns or ammo sales to provide an adequate return on investment. Simple as that.!

BINGO!!! roger

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
Becasue the marketing folks at the major gun companies don't think it would produce enough new guns or ammo sales to provide an adequate return on investment. Simple as that.

We can argue until the cows come home whether they are right or wrong!

This is fair logic....but then does that mean that it's "overrated" in it's performance criteria!

I'd guess a lot of the .25-06's success had to do with the time frame. Back in the development of the .25-06 days anything a guy could use a surplus .06 case for had a big edge. Also that was pre-chronograph days and I'd guess a lot of the .25-06 fans woulda swore they had a lot bigger advantage over a .257-AI than they really did.
As to why AI rounds haven't been standardized more I'm with the real or imagined feeding problem issue guys.
Lastly but not least I'm cynic enough to believe the major companies much prefer to tweak a case a couple thou just so they can claim credit for a proprietary round instead of just taking credit for legitimizing a great old original wildcat.
Also it's gotta be a profit margin issue look how many great rounds have died a rapid death cause they didn't catch the public eye (or Dollars).
I still bemoan the fact that one a my favorites has never been produced, the .17 Ackley Hornet .
Oh well, that's where us wildcatters come in .

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Um...well....interesting but it doesn't address my question which is:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by vapodog:
but specifically the most successful "AI" of them all.....the .257 Roberts AI has never been standardized.....


My question....why is it still a wildcat?

Winchester sells +p bob and brass .. same results, alternate solution..

but your original q was

quote:

Why are there no "AI" commercial cartridges?

which i kinda answered

The cartridge may or may not have been over rated, but the fact is that once the 25-06 came into being ther was no gap to be filled. That probably had more meaninging in the late 50s and 60s than it does now. It was perceived as a poor marketing gamble, and should have been. roger

Vapodog,

Because ammunition companies are busy putting out useful cartridges like the 338 Federal.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Vapodog,

Because ammunition companies are busy putting out useful cartridges like the 338 Federal.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Vapodog,

Because ammunition companies are busy putting out useful cartridges like the 338 Federal.

Talk about no gap! roger

scottfromdallas is one of the good guys here.... I speared his cartridge and he spears mine.....all in good fun!

I had this discussion in 2002(?) at the NRA Convention in Charlotte with the Winchester Ammo factory rep. He said they tried to make the cases a few times due to popular demand, but that it just wasn't practical - you pretty much had to fireform to make the cases sucessfully.

My all time favorite post from vapo...I laugh every time I think of it.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Never heard of a partition not expanding.

except from a .338 federal.....they go so slow that they are often found under the hide on the NEAR side of the animal.........

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
... the claims I've read are that the .257 Roberts AI outruns the .25-06

I think this is part of the myth of the AI cartridges. Since most AI cartridges are not standardized, and since any reloader can claim whatever velocities he feels like, who is to say what is really possible with AI cartridges - and at what pressures.

With the exception of very large cases, and even that exception is less relevant with ever slower powders becoming available, loaded to equal pressures a bigger case will give you more velocity than a smaller case. Simple as that.

Early in my shooting career, I belived the AI hype, and figured I could turn a 22" barrel .280 AI into a 7mm Rem Mag+. Well, it doesn't quite work like that. I ended up after that experience firmly believing, that if you want a big case, get a big case. Either that, or be happy to live on the pressure line - or somewhat above - to try to get the velocities you read about on the Internet or in a gun rag...

There may be other perfectly good reasons to get an AI case. In the case of the Roberts, maybe you have an action perfectly suited to that cartridge length, say. Or maybe you prefer to burn less powder or dislike trimmeng cases. All AI attributes.

I'm sceptical, though, when I see claims of the .257 Rob AI exceeding the .25-06, or the .280 AI exceeding the 7mm Rem Mag, or the .30-06 AI exceeding the .300 Mags. There are all sorts of claims in reloading. Generally, nobody can verify these, and in particular, since most loads are not pressure tested, nobody can verify the pressure these "super loads" require. I'll just be old-fashioned and keep believing: if you want a big case, get a big case - even though it may mean more powder burned and shorter barrel life.

- mike

I think the issue is two-fold. First, which cartridges to AI. The 257 may be a good one, but the sales of regular Bob is dismal already, so why do the AI? It has a small very interested following, but that's all. I think Nosler made the right choice in the 280, but that brings us to the second issue....cost. A box of 20 Nosler 280AI rounds is over $45. Not happening for this kid. IMHO, that is why no one does them, no one will pay that much for them in the everyday world, which is where they would have to sell to make any real $$$.

We are exceptions here, for the most part, in that the AR folks are willing to do some of these things, but Joe Average goes to Wally World and buys his 30-06 ammo for $14 per box, not $45 per box. Just sayin'.

quote:

I think this is part of the myth of the AI cartridges. Since most AI cartridges are not standardized, and since any reloader can claim whatever velocities he feels like, who is to say what is really possible with AI cartridges - and at what pressures.

ding ding ding.....we have a winner here!....It's because they aren't what they are claimed to be and any company with pressure testing equipment knows it!

Crap Vapodog I've been telling you that for years. I spent many years and a heck of a lot of $$ and time testing AIs and other IMPROVED cases. Some I had the benefit of pressure data. A 7x57 case(includes the roberts and 6mm) will get you about 1% velocity for each 3-4% capacity gain. The 243 more like 1 for 5% and the 06s on the order of 1 for 4%. At equal pressure and barrel length. If you use two different barrels all bets are off because barrels can add or take away as much or more gain than an AI can give. Two of the biggest gainers are the 257 and 7x57. Yep compare handload to facotory you are adding 13000+ psi of pressure. QL calls the gain in a Roberts for that much pressure as 162fps.

I have AIs and other improved cases. I happen to like my PDK series which is a shoulder forward improved case like a Gibbs on steriods. My handloads in 7mm and 338 equal or beat factory 7mag and 338Mag loads. As to the 338 only 225gr. I can't beat my own handloads for the magnums. In the 338 I can equal but not beat my 338 but that comes from a 2" longer barrel.

What I say to people if they want an AI go for it. But be realistic in your expectations. The majority of the gain is pressure not capacity.

But they look cool and are great to talk about around the campfire.

quote:

But they look cool and are great to talk about around the campfire. dancing

I'm actually considering a 6.5 Gibbs....but time will tell.

They look great too around a campfire!

quote:

I'm actually considering a 6.5 Gibbs....but time will tell.

6.5PDK

The "Quarter Rule" comes into play. Take the percentage of capacity increase and divide by four. That %-age is about what you can expect, at the same pressure, to gain.

ie: ten percent increase equals two and a half percent velocity increase. Pressure is what made those old AI wildcats work.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

I'm actually considering a 6.5 Gibbs....but time will tell.

6.5PDK

I've got three premo M-98s waiting for a project.....

But first I have to finish another one....

I think one problem for the 257 as well as the 6mm Rem and 7 X 57 is length, too long for the 308 short actions.