One of the posts below caused me to start this new discussion regarding bullet failure. We all hear the old chestnut "at what point in the animals death did the bullet fail". Well the account below is based on a report that I posted on another UK site a couple of days ago, based on observations after taking a deer last Saturday night.

Translations:

1. Pricket - yearling bucks with little spikes for antlers.

2. Gralloch - eviserating of a deer - gaelic word in common use in the UK and Ireland.


“Had a bit of a horror story last Saturday night.

Went out to look for a Fallow (Whitetail sized deer), no real plan other than to find something shootable, does and bucks are both in season. I was moving down the back of a hedge heading for one of my favourite spots when I spotted a little pricket heading towards me on the other side of the hedge. He seemed to be limping on the front left leg.

I moved out up hill a little to my right to give me a better angle for a shot over the hedge when he came into the open. He duly walked out about 35m in front of me, and I shot him just behind the left shoulder about half way up the body, pretty much broad side. He took off across the field and I reloaded, I was not unduly concerned as I knew the shot was good and he did not look very healthy. He staggered and fell over at about 100 yards. As I was watching through the scope, the brute got back up again and was heading for the wood. I gave him another one in the neck (he had his back to me) and that finished the job.

Major malfunction was discovered on gralloch.

My shot hit as described above. On inspection, the bullet had hit a rib. The left lung was badly damaged, but it looked as if the copper cup of the bullet only had hit the lung, diameter of the hole was about 2cm. The lung was not fully penetrated and the right lung had no major damage, but there were a large number of small holes.

My assumption/observation is that the bullet disintegrated on the rib on entry, the lead core fragmented and caused a large number of small pin prick holes. The copper jacket had badly damaged the left lung but failed to get as far as the right lung.

I am only so sure about this because I killed the buck with a neck shot, allowing me to do a decent post-mortem on the chest shot. I have no doubt that if i hadn't fired the neck shot, the buck would have been lost to a slow death. I am not at all happy about this.

I have heard of "bullet failure", this is the first time I have seen it.

Bullet was a 120gr Sierra prohunter from my 260rem, muzzle velocity is c.2900fps, so impact velocity would have been very little less than that given the short range.

I think I have only used these 120 Sierra's on deer since I got this rifle. The first buck I shot was a much bigger fallow than yesterday's pricket, range was similar, I seem to remember I got complete penetration and a decent exit wound on the side shot at about 40m. I shot two or three other fallow and three Sika with it last season. Ranges all between 100 and 175m, all completely without incident.

I shot another Fallow pricket 3 weeks ago on the same ground, buck was standing facing me at 260ish yards. I shot him at the base of the throat, into the chest. He went down like a brick. I did not try to find the bullet as it was in his gut.

I have had bullets blow up once or twice before, most notably a 140gr silvertip from my 270 on the shoulder of a large red hind, however, these deer died on the spot with a "100% energy dump".

I don't understand why you, or anyone for that matter, is surprised when a Sierra bullet comes apart. Looking back on 40 years of reloading, Sierra bullets have, in general, been more fragile than any American brand that I've used and I've used most of them. The only 3 Sierra bullets that I still use are the 85 grain .243" BTHP, 75 grain .257" HP, and 90 grain .257" BTHP, and ONLY for varmints.

For shooting non-dangerous game under 100+/- kg with the 260, I really like the 100 grain .264" Nosler Partition, as it provides a nice balance of accuracy, velocity, and dependable penetration. If you want/need a slightly heavier bullet, the 129 grain Hornady SpirePoint is always a safe bet, as is the 140 grain Nosler Partition, if speed is not an important factor in your decision process.

FWIW, I used the 85 grain .243" BTHP and the 90 grain .257" BTHP for shooting deer with my 243, 6mm, 250-3000, 257 Roberts, and 257AI rifles for about 20 years, 1982-2002, with good success. Since I knew that these bullets are fragile, I always picked my shots and aimed behind the shoulder for a solid lung shot. I stopped using them when I has 4 bullet failures in 1 season. All 4 bullets came apart on contact and failed to penetrate through the rib cage and into the pleural cavity. The wounds were shallow, between 8" to 10" in diameter, painful, but not immediately fatal.

Jeff

Is this true of the Sierra GameKings as well? I have some .257 Wby Mag ammo loaded with 117 grain Sierra GameKings. I was going to use them for whitetail deer this gun season. Should I be concerned about their integrity?

While I have never had a problem with the Sierra's in 6.5, they are what they are...a cup and core bullet. They are softer than "premium" bullets. I would not worry one whit about a single failure. I have had Ballistic Tips fail more then that and I still use them as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Red C.:
Is this true of the Sierra GameKings as well? I have some .257 Wby Mag ammo loaded with 117 grain Sierra GameKings. I was going to use them for whitetail deer this gun season. Should I be concerned about their integrity?

This is really more a question of Impact Velocity. There's nothing wrong with a .257 Roy slinging a 117 SGK at 3300 fps...as long as the bullet is impacting at less than 3000 fps - call it 250+ yards out. Hit a deer at point blank range and yeah, that could create design integrity issues.

Cup and Core bullets are designed to work optimally at speeds less than 3,000 fps and weren't designed for maximum penetration in tough shots. In other words, don't expect a small .257 117 bullet to penetrate a spine. I neck shot a doe at 80 yards with a 117 SST and the bullet didn't exit. The Neck vertebrate that got hit was vaporized into a million little pieces with no exit wound.

I load the 117 SGK in my .257 Roberts to 2,850 fps - and I consider that to be about the upper limit for the bullet's performance envelope. It's perfect for broadside hits.

Given your choice of cartridges, I'd lean towards an Accubond, Partition or TSX over a traditional C&C bullet if I was going to drive it at full Roy speeds.

Velocity does make a big difference .The 130 gr 270 Sierra is too fragile within 100 yds .Butchering them shot below 100 damages too much meat.
As for the 6.5 ,I hunted many years with a 6.5x55 but used the 140 which never failed me even though all deer were shot within 100 yds.

In tests on Ballistic Gel, the Sierra Gamekings were more explosive then the Nosler Ballistic tips.

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
In tests on Ballistic Gel, the Sierra Gamekings were more explosive then the Nosler Ballistic tips.

Do you have a link for that info??
OP, I use pro hunters also, but not that light, nore in 6.5. For a good inexpensive bullet, Hornady 129gr interlocks work for me in 6.5x55.

It was a federal ammunition video posted on this sight. They shot several of their .30 Cal factory loads with Sierra's, BT, and several others.

Here's the video:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...531025831#8531025831

I don't download plug-ins. I use Sierra pro hunters and game kings in .308 and have never had any game walk away, that includes 165gr SBT game kings. Maybe run a few yards, but never lost game. My go to for just about everything that walks is a 175gr Pro Hunter in 8x57. Maybe the issue the OP has is the light weight. As I stated I have no issues w/ 129gr Hornady bullets in 6.5. A good compromise of price and reliability.

In the Video they were shooting 165gr Gamekings at 2800 fps, with impact at 100 yards.
Bare gelitin, gelitin covered with deer skin, and moose skin covered gelitin with an imbeded cow femur.

It was a good set of tests.

I'm hoping to test the "Game Kings suck" theory this weekend on mule deer. Will report results if any are obtained.

200 gr GK, .300 Win Mag at around 2925 fps.

It is the velocity. I've had 180 grain Accubonds "fail" at close range out of my Win Mag.

quote:

It is the velocity.

I believe you are correct. BT's don't far very well above 3k fps. GK's at that velocity should leave a nice mess as well. With a 9-12" sphere of total destruction places somewhere in a mully carcase, I suspect the biggest failure will be the deer heart.

Considering the same projectile in the same rifle has performed well in previous hunts, it really does put you between a rock and a hard place.

Was it a one off anomaly (that we all experience without reason from time to time ) or a total failure ? Were the other successful kills at the same or similar impact velocity ?

If it makes you feel better to change projectiles then obviously an increase in projectile weight or 'stiffness' of production is called for.

May I suggest a 6.5mm Hornady 129 SST. A tougher Interlock with a plastic tip to assist expansion.

about all i shoot are cup and core bullets. i don't push anything over about 2750 fps in any of my rifles unless i am hunting groundhogs. i just move up in projectile weight. i just got tired of bloodshot meat.

I had a .260 that shot Hornady 129 SPs very well and was quite effective on deer (all pass throughs, even a fairly close shoulder shot). Ditto for my 6.5x55 shooting 140s. I've shot deer with 130 Nosler BTs and 140 Sierra GK in a .270 Win I once had and have had core separtions with both the GK and BT.

I have personally had two instances where Sierra bullets have come apart. All were under 100 yards and in my case all were of the 270 Win. 140 gr. boattail variety. On one instance the bullet actually seperated into three projectiles before impact. (Three entrance holes) The other instance, I had three holes going out the far side after making a mess of the lung area. None of the fragments hit any ribs as I recall on the second instance. Obviously both were dead deer but that put an end to my Sierra bullets for "game I want to take home" use. As some one else said they are great varmint bullets and IMO the one of the most accurate bullets on the market, but...........................

ClaretDabbler, of what vintage were the Win. silvertips you had come apart? Were they the new ones made by Combined Technologies or the original Win. Silvertips with the aluminum tip? The ones made by C/T is nothing more than a Nosler Ballistic tip dressed up a bit.

I agree with the Hornady 129's in the .260

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I'm hoping to test the "Game Kings suck" theory this weekend on mule deer. Will report results if any are obtained.

200 gr GK, .300 Win Mag at around 2925 fps.

It is the velocity. I've had 180 grain Accubonds "fail" at close range out of my Win Mag.

Can you elaborate on the Accubond failing? I didn't think this was possible.

The BC isnt great, but plain old Rem corlok work great. not as cheap as they used to be, but I bought a couple thousand bulk years ago so have enough for awhile still!

Claret-Dabbler,

I read your contribution with interest and would advise you to get a 7mm .270 or 30-06 for use on fallow and sika. I have used a 6.5x57 for years with 127, 140 and 160gr rounds but still consider it a bit light should the shot be less than perfect. The 30-06 is in my opinion the best round of the lot for general purpose hunting which would include all our deer species.
best of luck.
Joe

quote:

Originally posted by mackey:
Claret-Dabbler,

I read your contribution with interest and would advise you to get a 7mm .270 or 30-06 for use on fallow and sika. I have used a 6.5x57 for years with 127, 140 and 160gr rounds but still consider it a bit light should the shot be less than perfect.
Joe

It's the bullet!
It's The Bullet!!
IT'S THE BULLET!!!

C'mon now! The Swedes use their 6.5 on moose,
for cryin' out loud!

Much as I hate the idea of government shoving
something down our throats such as monolithic
bullets in places like Kalifornia, such bullets
will never fail you at close ranges. Barnes,
Nosler, Hornady and others are now in
competition and the prices are getting better.
These bullets also make smaller calibers on
par, even equal to larger calibers in that
they can penetrate just as far as larger
caliber premium lead core bullets. If one
can get them to shoot accurately, they can
be the "cat's meow" for a caliber like the
6.5, .257, 6mm, and even some of the faster
.224's.

I have absolutely nothing against good bullets
of any kind. Bullet manufactures have really
gone to great lengths of progressing bullet
performance in the last 25 years.
Unfortunately, much of the general shooting
population's mind set has not kept up!!

Had you been shooting a 140gr Core Lokt, you wouldn't have had the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Had you been shooting a 140gr Core Lokt, you wouldn't have had the problem.

It's been my experience that the Rem 140grain CL are very reliable in the 6.5x55. All animals shot at have been recovered, neck, side on and Texas heart have all worked. The high sectional density and a well made bullet are a reliable combination.

It's not "bullet failure" at all. It is "failure" to choose a correct bullet for use. Sierra describes the 120 gr SP as a "designed with a light jacket to facilitate proper expansion on varmints". Sierra also says it is a "very fine bullet for medium size game in cartridges with moderate velocity.

The fallow took almost all of the 2900 fps (definately not considered a "moderate" velocity by most) so it is no wonder the bullet acted like a varmint bullet simply because it was a varmint bullet.

Not "bullet failure, just the wrong bullet used.

I use the Sierra 120 gr SP as a varmint bullet for rock chucks and coyotes out of my 6.5-308 (basically same as the 260 Rem),and my 6.5x55 at the same 2900 fps. It is a very deadly varmint bullet on them to 300 yards. Out of my 6.5-280 at 3200 fps it is deadly on varmints to very extreme ranges. For antelope, deer, and elk I use the Hornady 140 SP and it works very well. There are other appropriate bullets for deer size game but the 120 gr Sierra at 2900 fps is not one of them.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
I have had Ballistic Tips fail more then that and I still use them as well.

Why would you do something like that? With all the choice available it's no problem to find a bullet that you and your rifle both like and that will work properly 9999 times out of 10000.

Dean

quote:

It's the bullet!
It's The Bullet!!
IT'S THE BULLET!!!

C'mon now! The Swedes use their 6.5 on moose,
for cryin' out loud!

+1

I watched a mate shoot all of his animals in Namibia with a 6.5x55. All were DRT. He used 140AB's for the bigger stuff, oryx, kudu and hartebeest and switched to 129 Hornady's for springbok. Admittedly springbok are smaller than fallow, but not that much smaller. All of the springbok were shot through the shoulders and all were pass throughs. Excellent bullet in the Swede and I'd say in the 260 as well.

I have used the 140 Sierra GameKings all over this world and they have never let me down. Let ONE thing be made perfectly clear!! They were never used on "dangerous game" or on something beyond their capabilities. [IE: Bear, Cape Buff etc.] I did use them on Leopard once [by mistake in the dark] and killed the cat just as dead as the expensive H-Mantle that were supposed to have been used. I have killed several of the coastal black bears her locally with no problems but, there again, used discretion and bullet placement and did not take any "stupid mistake shots". I have shot over 4,500 of these over the last 30 years or so and feel confident in their accuracy and performance. Remember! Bullet placement AND terminal energy are critical. Sure a ligher bullet will come apart when used at close ramge. Just as a heavier jacketed one will just punch a nice little hole through the animal and not open up and you`ll find him 1/2 mile from where you shot him. Long walk/carry or jellied meat! Either way undesirable. I have found, at 264 Win mag velocity [3150 MV] the 140 Gamekings are at their best at the 200-400 range. BUT! As distance increases the , as I call it, "kill zone" decreases. 200 yds? 5" kill zone area. 400? 2-3". There is NO perfect bullet. There never has and there never will be any ONE perfect bullet that will reliably perform at 50 yds and then at 500! Thank GOD we are Americans and not burdened [for now!] with laws that say we have to shoot one gun and one bullet. The only time I would expend the extra money for these premium bullets is if i went back to Africa and hunted dangerous stuff and, at 72, this is not going to happen. The only other POSSIBLE time would be if I were to feel like hunting for a trophy "whatever" and felt the prize/ situation warranted it and that is not going to happen either as I am STRICTLY a meat hunter. For now the Sierra and Hornady bullets are fine. My little 250/3000AI dotes on the OLD Nosler 100gr Solid Base bullets not made anymore. This is the only other bullet I shoot. Just my .02
Aloha, Mark

The 85 grain 6mm bthp and 90 grain 25 cal. bthp gamekings I have found to be quite durable. I have recovered many of each from deer and pigs from 243 and 25 wssm, 25-06, 240wby, 243win, and 6mm rem. All of those have been perfect pictures of the photo-typical expanded bullet. On the other side, I have had failures/poor performance from sierras in most other caliber/bullet weights I have tried. Accuracy has never been an issue, but the 25wssm is the only gun that still shoots sierras at my house. I also love the 100 grain partition from the 260 and 264wm.

Gidday Brian,

I have switched to the Hornandy 129 gr sp for all deer with the 260. It is a bullet that works well at 30 metres or 300 out of the 260.

Last wednesday morning while having a poke around up a favorite valley a mate and myself spooked a couple mob of red hinds and yearlings. The end result was a yearling hind fell to Barrys 243 using sierra 85gr hpbt and a spiker (pricket) went down to my rifle with the hornandy. I achieved complete penetration of both lungs and an exit via the liver and gut.

Barrys deer went down in spectacular fashion as his shot was high behind the the shoulder and the terminal performance was much like yours with pin holes through the lungs. I believe it was the proximity of the shot to the spine that resulted in the spectacular head over heals shot.

The deer did require the coup de grace where mine had bled out nicely as it had nice holes about 30mm round through both lungs. Barry is one of those types who doesn't get too technical about things so long as the result is the one he wanted. He thinks his bullet out performs mine because his dropped at the shot. I can't change his mind even though I have had to put a finisher in a few of his deer over the years.

Go to the hornandy because they are no nonsense and won't give any trouble. I use hornandys exclusively now in the 222 260 and 30-06 nowdays.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

Hamish, how do you find the 129gn SST on deer? I use them out of my 260 Rem on goats and they work fine, just wondering for NZ hunting.

Cheers, Chris

Thanks for all the comments guys.

I realise (with the benefit of hindsight)that the Sierra may have been a poor choice of bullet. As I said earlier, I would not have commented except that the Sierra fired into the chest was the only shot to that area and I could therefore see what damage was caused without the sample being contaminated by another shot.

Unfortunately choices here are limited and you have to play with what you cat get your hands on.

I have some 120gr NBT which I will try over the next month. Went out to my gun shoop last week to see what he had in 6.5 that might hold up better. I came away with a box of Hornady Interbonds. FYI, they cost me the equivalent of $80 US for a box of 100. Varget is over $70 per pound here.

I have used a 270 for a long time, just fancied something lighter and fallow are really not hard to kill. There are 10,000's shot every year in the UK and Ireland with 243's, 6.5's etc.

I do have a nice new 30/06, I will maybe take it out this weekend and try and blood it.

When people talk Sierra failure it is most likely the Gameking. Thats why they make the the ProHunter with the flat base. Any cup-core boattail will come apart faster than the same bullet with a flat base. But everyone should shoot boattail bullets because you need that 3" less drop at 600yds ,the range that everyone shoots their deer at. Talking about "Premium Bullet failuer" I love those Good Old Boys hunting shows that they alway tell you that they are useing Premium Bullets (they are wearing Barnes or Nosler patches) and they shoot a 150lb deer and they always run off. I guess they are not worried about loseing the deer because they are most likely in a 40 acre forest with a 8'fence. They alway see 6 or 7 huge deer at the same spot and are alway whinning that if they shoot the deer that they are lookng at the next might be bigger. They have to take the tags with bar codes out of the ears before takeing pictures. Whats with all the high fives and wispering and they always uses the turm HARVEST. You shot-kill deer. You HARVEST tomatos.

I shoot a 6.5x55 and use it on fallow. Up until recently, the bullet that gave me the best groups, was, yes you guessed it, the 120gn Sierra PH, moving at around 2900fps. A couple of the fallow that I shot with it needed a second shot, and I recall a particular young buck that I shot badly, breaking its hip bone. I never found anything but bullet dust and the shot was at 180yrds.

whilst I have no beef with Sierra, I tend to agree that their bullets are softer than others in the market. Using the 140gn GMK on springbok, warthog and gemsbok in Africa, out of my 7x57 (doing 2550fps) I found out that no bullet retained its core and I have had some animals DRT, but the bullet not penetrating too far through the chest cavity.

I now have a good group with 129gn Hornady interlock BTSP and this will be what I shall be using with my 6.5x55.

As an aside comment, I also observed that my 7x57 shoots boattail bullets a lot more accurately than the flat base equivalents, and that is why I would choose to use them.

Best wishes,

Finman

Gidday Rockdoc,

I am using the good old soft point rather than the sst. I find them to be the best value as the perform well at the ranges I use them (under 300 metres) and don't break the bank.

A lot of guys use ssts to good effect but I have heard some complain about them blowing up and others about pencilling. I have found that the soft points perform consistently and while they are not as pretty or flashy as the plastic tipped jobbies that means more to me.

I think I may have seen you on the fishnhunt forum but many of the long range guys there are using 123gr and 140gr Amaxes with good results on tahr and deer out past my 300 limit to good effect. That is outside my experience as these guys are consistently taking animals in the 600 1000 metre range

I have used 140gr partitions and have found no difference in the performance of these over the hornandys out of the 260. They do however cost 4 times as much ($80 per 50) here. They are not worth the price in this case. The good old interlocts are every bit as effective.

Use the sst if it is more accurate for you by all means. I am sure you will be fine as they are a nice slippery bullet and with their high BC and SD penetration will not be a problem.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

a while back my friend gathered some wet clay that an art place was throwing out, still in the bags we lined them up and I shot a 30-06 loaded with the 180gr round nose sierra makes into it, and it held together like any good bullet. I think there is a big difference between the boat tail lineup and the flat base ones. I keep shooting them because they are priced well and very accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
I don't understand why you, or anyone for that matter, is surprised when a Sierra bullet comes apart. Looking back on 40 years of reloading, Sierra bullets have, in general, been more fragile than any American brand that I've used and I've used most of them. Jeff

This has not been my experience at all.
In a 30/06 and 180 grain Sierra SPBT's I've had consistently better performance than several other bullets specifically on Mule deer, elk, antelope, Bighorn Sheep and Mountain Goat. I have had less than stellar experiences with 180 grain Speer SPBT's and 180 Accubonds. All the Sierra's in all situations from 35 yards to 425 yards exited the animal, not so with the other 2 brands.
Also with a .243 and Sierra SPBT's and flat bases all kills and exits on deer and antelope.
.257 Roberts 117 Sierra SPBT's same results even on large bodied Mule Deer angling shots with nearly 2' of penetration and an exit wound.
I favor these bullets because of their accuracy and terminal performance over the last 35 years of loading and shooting animals with them, not 1 bad experience from me and I'll continue to use them.
Just my experience yours may vary!

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I'm hoping to test the "Game Kings suck" theory this weekend on mule deer. Will report results if any are obtained.

200 gr GK, .300 Win Mag at around 2925 fps.

It is the velocity. I've had 180 grain Accubonds "fail" at close range out of my Win Mag.

Can you elaborate on the Accubond failing? I didn't think this was possible.

Sure Scott,

I didn't think it was possible either, but the circumstances were unique.

The long and the short of it:

Shot a BIG muley at about 30 yards quartering away sharply. I could just see rib cage between the hind quarter and front quarter and shot for it. The 180 grain Accubond out of my .300 Win Mag at 3150 fps hit the rib cage like a picket fence. The buck kicked like a mule and was off and running back into the woods. I couldn't believe it just didn't drop him in his tracks. I walked up to the spot of the shot to find a bloodbath and a bloodbath trail for about 75 yards to where he was laying. The entrance was oblong shaped across the center of the ribs and upon the medical exam, the bullet had just exploded. It looked like a shotgun blast for an exit out of the front of the chest and right shoulder. Found lots of exploded jacket material.

I emailed Sierra on this very same bullet 6.5mm 120gr pro hunter. I asked them for their minimum and maximum velocities in which the bullets would either fail to expand or fragment. The answer I recieved was they were designed for optimal expansion between 2300 and 2800fps. Less than 2300fps and they might not expand fully and over 2800fps they may explode.
With that information I would think the velocity at which your bullet impacted was more than the 2800fps and therefore the bullet exploded on impact. Also the Sierra pro hunters have a thinner jacket than the Game Kings do. All that said they are still a cup and core bullet and can fail. One thing I was told many years ago was when using cup and core bullets you should use the heavier bullets as they will retain more weight and penetrate better not to mention stay together at higher impact velocities.
I have killed more animals with Sierra bullets than all the other bullets I have tried. They are usually the most accurate out of all my rifles and they are certainly one of the cheapest as well.

DannoBoone

I agree with you to a certain extent, its the bullet etc. but if one uses light calibre bullets such as 243, 257, and 6.5 for medium sized game the chances of such failures increase
accordingly when compared with calibres in 270, 7mm and 30. If people are going to use calibres which are on the margins of effectivness then failures are more likely to occur. If a person only shoots a couple of deer per season then such problems as bullet failure may not show up at all. But if a person is shooting 30 to 40 deer per year then light calibres will show up there inherent faults. That is why I would suggest using a 270, 7mm and 30-06 for deer.
Best of luck

Joe