Thanks! The rifle really doesn't kick right now, but I'm all for savnig money and my shoulder. I've shot a few squirrels with the rifle, but you wouldn't want to eat what was left.

Send those Squills to MORTie next time. He will eat them.
Squill stew receipes of MORTie.

Road kill stew works well also at Mortie's.

Seafire,
There was a Simpsons cartoon show about marketing characters come to life as monsters, and the only way to defeat them was to ignore them.

If I drive to Oregon, will you take ME ground squirel hunting?

Clark;

Any time. Just give me a little notice so I can take a little time off. I own my own company, I just have to arrange my schedule so that I don't have customers call with their shorts in a knot when I am heading out the door to go shoot.

Like I took off this past Monday afternoon. Only got to shoot 4 .5 hours but I got 400 plus shots off.

Would look forward to it.

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

Seafire,

I shot 12.0 gr of Blue Dot with 55 gr V-Max and CCI 400 today and got a 3/4" group at 100 yards using a 22" Handi rifle.


I think I may just stick with this load if it indicates a half way decent velocity on the chrony. For some reason, bullet maybe, the group was 2 1/2" high today, about the height I have the scope sighted in for 24.0 gr IMR 4895.

I also posted a couple of reduced load groups for a 7mm Mag and a .25-06 here .

Hobie,



I posted a quote on the "Blue Dot in the .243" thread that addresses the "reduced" loads of pistol powder in a bottle necked case to a small degree. The author claimed there is a certain threshold for the minimum that you cannot reduce below when using jacketed bullets in a bottle necked case.



If you will look in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual Number 1, you will find numerous applications of 700X, PB, Red Dot, Green Dot and etc. in bottle necked cases. I don't know when Blue Dot came on the market, but for some reason it wasn't used in rifle cases by RCBS.



The same situation exists in the Lyman Cast Bullet Book.

Paul,

I really think Blue Dot was not used, because it has been around as long as Red Dot and Green Dot, because they had acceptable results with the other powders.

Also remember that info was for cast bullets and 2000 fps is a max velocity in most of those. I am looking to start at 2000 fps with jacketed bullets in my research.

cheers and good shooting
seafire

Savage:

When I am using Blue Dot loads, in my 223's it is for varmint hunting, so I have to admit, that is what that rifle is shooting period.

So I adjust the scope's zero and there it stays. Actually for varmint shooting for me, I have several 223's and Blue Dot with a 46 grain Winchester Hollow Point is their diet, period.

I do have about 20 boxes of 55 grain SP ( 50 rounds per box) from Ultra Max Ammo I am using up for the brass. I got it from a dear friend who passed away last March while we were out coyote hunting. I chronographed that at 3150 fps. I disassembled one and it looks like it uses some sort of powder like W 748. Not sure what it is and I am sure the manufacturer of the ammo ( UltaMax) won't tell me.

However, the 14.5 grains of Blue Dot with a 46 gr HP and this UltraMax with a 55 gr SP both have the same point of impact and the same velocity range ( 3250 for the 46 gr HP and 3150 for the 55 gr SP). The same point of impact in both rifles are from a pair of Remington's ONE in VLS and the other in VSS.

Don't know if this answered the question, but that is the results I can report.

Cheers and good shootin'
seafire

Seafire,

According to Speer #10, page 42 (1979)

Quote:

---

HERCULES BLUE DOT is the newest magnum shotshell powder from this company. It provides top performance in the 9mm Luger. In magnum revolver cartridges it produces velocities nearly as good as 2400 but also gives cleaner burning and often better ballistic uniformity than 2400.

---

The same book says this about Red Dot

Quote:

---

HERCULES RED DOT has long been a favorite for light to medium target shotshell loads. It is also used for light handgun loads.

---

Speer #7 (1966) and #8 (1973) both list Red Dot and Green Dot, but not Blue Dot.

I would conclude that Blue Dot was introduced somewhere between Speer #8 (1973) and Speer #10 (1979).

You are certainly correct about the velocity limitation used by RCBS of ~ 2000 fps. That is more than likely the reason to exclude Blue Dot from their cast loads, except for handguns.

I have been impressed enough with the Blue Dot loads to extend my loadings to .30-06 at 21.0 gr (about 40% load density) with a 150 gr Rem bronze point.

BTW, most of my loads have been shooting to the left of the POI for normal rifle powders.

Paul,

Because most rifles have a right hand twist to them, you will find if you lower your velocity, that the point of impact will be to the left, and can be lower dependeing on the velocity etc. If you shoot the same thing, with a higher velocity then your point of impact will be to the right and up.

There is something to do with the powder and how it ignites that also has an effect and not beening a trained ballistician on the subject, I can only offer observations.

However more than once, I have seen where I can have two different loads with the same muzzle velocity, in the same cartridge ( EG: 150 grain bullet, 30/06, 2800 fps), but then the point of inpact will be different. Some times dramatically.

ONE will be high and centered vertically and the second left and centered horizontally. I have never paid much attention to it, but I have enough to know that there is more consistency with IMR powders than Hodgdons for this observation. Of course IMR made powders and Hodgdon just sells powders.

It theorize that it has to do with how much powder a case has, and how volitale it is on ignition by the primer.

Extreme examples are of using 3031 with a 150 grain bullet in a 30/06 and then using Hodgdon 4831 with a 150 grain bullet.

Because of this observation, I have tended to buck trends and use mid range powders even in larger cases ( such as magnums). It gives better accuracy consistently to my observations.

Yet another anomaly I have seen is if you use a slow powder that fills a case up, but yet does not reach pressure above the lower ranges, it produces better accuracy. Case in point, IMR 4064 in my 338/06. 50 grains of it, gives 2500 fps with a 200 grain bullet or a 250 grain bullet.

IN a 223, an over looked powder is H 380 . However, 28 grains of it, with a 40 grain bullet to a 75 grain bullet, the velocity difference is minimal. It gives 3100 fps with a 40 grain bullet, and 3000 fps with a 75 grain bullet. Point of inpact has minimal changes if any. Especially in my 223 with a one in 8 twist.

However, 3100 fps with a 40 grain bullet quickly tells why it is an overlooked load.

Just some observations from the peanut gallery.

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

I've used Red Dot, Green Dot, etc. in rifle cases. However, for some reason that is something I read told me that Blue Dot was inappropriate for rifle cases. I know from experience in smaller pistol cases, notably the 10mm Auto, that the charge seems critical BUT this is the best performing powder I've used in that cartridge. It WAS the only reason I had any on my shelf. I'd enjoy loading some way cool reduced loads in the .223 Rem. This is especially true since I already load the 40 gr. Hornady VMAX which would be way cool at .22 WRFM velocities.

It seems to me that BD has been on the market about 20 years. Hard to remember when I never had a need for it until the 10mm Auto came into my life.

Paul5388
I had those same bullets and had no luck with them either (Remington 55's). All different powders and blue dot. Give me those 40 V-Max.
David

David,

I tried the 40 gr V-Max and it didn't do as well with IMR 4895 as the 55 gr Rem's. They are moly coated and I just shot them like I would any other bullet. Probably not the best procedure, but I wasn't going to do a big cleaning for a dozen bullets.

I also tried the Sierra 53 gr HP that didn't do as well as the Rem's.

The NEF Handi rifle I'm using had a big problem with the synthetic forearm fit and it has taken me quite a while to get it relieved enough to shoot half way decent. I think I finally have that problem fixed.

Paul,

Could you tell us more? I've been waiting for an update but must have missed it on the several forums on which you're posting.

Hobie,

I would be more than happy to, when the wind quits blowing so hard! There's a front hanging around here in Texas that has the wind gusting at 20-30 mph.

Therefore, I just shot some .360 DW's and .38 Specials in my .357 Handi rifle.

I found out I can't see James Calhoon's target at 100 yards with a 9X scope!

I see where there was some severe weather in that state north of y'all.

I had my Max out to empty some cases. I'm going to work up some loads with Lil'Gun and see what they will do.

I tried some different targets today that I could kinda see. I guess it made some difference.



The best group (all of these are 3 shots at 100 yards and all the velocities are at 15') was 1 1/4" with 12.0 gr Blue Dot (BD) and 55 gr Rem HP. The velocity out of a 22" handi rifle was 2583 fps.



The next best group was a toss up between Nosler 45 gr solid base with 12.0 gr BD and 11.5 gr BD with 55 gr Rem PSP, bith at 1 1/2".



The 46 gr Win HP produced 1 9/16" with 12.0 gr BD. Velocity 2654 fps.



The sorriest group of all was 55 gr V-Max at 5", also with 12.0 gr BD. Velocity 2604 fps.



The Northwest storms must have gotten to handloads.com or I would post the actual groups or at least a link to them.



Well! it wasn't stroms. It was the host (not handloads.com) having problems!

Here's the link to the groups shot today.

Targets

Quicky result
40 gr. Balistic Tip 12.5 gr. Blue Dot, RP cases, WSR primers 2977 avg. ft./sec. 1" 10 shot group at 100 yd. Ruger M0D 77 Varmint. That's about it for now. Roger

Paul,

Have you seen the continuing project on Building an H&R (NEF) Carbine? I thought you might be interested.

Hobie,

Looks way too complicated to me!

The way my NEF's shoot, I don't know that I would invest too much money in them. One would think the simple design would take some of the variables out of the load development process, but I find it to be just the opposite in real life.

In a couple hours, I shot 200 rounds of 13 gr Blue Dot 60 gr SP moly .223.

The barrel never got hot, and this has alot more range and does more downrange damage than 17HMR.

Paul,

If there is a gun there is somebody who will want to trick it out! If there is a cartridge, there is somebody who will want to redline it and somebody else who wants to make it perform like the least of it's caliber. Without this there wouldn't be the incredible opportunity for us to play around there'd only be .22 LRs, .30-06s etc. I just thought you might be interested, after all, you aren't shooting factory ammo, are you?

Clark, what kind of accuracy did you get with the 60 gr. bullets and what rifle did you use roger?

Hobie,

What you say is very true. However, if I were to want more accuracy, I would get a more accurate rifle and end up spending less money overall. Or, I would keep plodding along, trying to make what I have shoot the way I think it should. I suppose the latter is the handloader's way?

Hey Hobie, I took a look at your Link, but I must have missed something. What kind of accuracy level are they expecting to achieve? 4s? 5s? 6s?

bartsche,
I was not shooting targets from a benchrest, but squirels from the hood of my car:


picture of the .223 on the hood of my car

The Blue Dot load shot better than I could.
Those squirels only stand up for 5 seconds, and at 100 yards, that 5 seconds goes by fast.

I didn't see a thread on the .30-06, so I guess you get it!

Took the 03-A3 out today with some reduced loads. I used 21.0 gr Blue Dot with RWS LR primers and 150 gr Rem Bronze Points. Very little recoil and the group looks like this at 100 yards.



The load I hunted with last year didn't group this good!

Seafire,

I tried some Green Dot loads today. They weren't very fast at an average of 2066 fps, but I was only using 8.5 gr with 55 gr Rem HP's. I got a 5 shot group at 100 yards at 1 3/8". POI was about 5 1/2" low.

Paul,

sounds like it would be good for duplication of 22 Win Mag loads.

How did accuracy strike you?

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

Seafire,

The accuracy was good enough that I went ahead and loaded a few rounds at 9.0 gr and 9.5 gr to see if accuracy and velocity will approach that acheived with Blue Dot.

I know we're supposed to be talking about Blue Dot, but I ran some Green Dot loads throught the chrony today.

9.0 gr Green Dot, 55 gr Rem HP, CCI 400 at 15', 22" barrel
average 2165 fps

9.5 gr Green Dot, 55 gr Rem HP, CCI 400
average 2275 fps.

Accuracy for both loads was acceptable, but not outstanding.

In case anyone is interested, I shot some 10.0 gr Green Dot loads today with 55 gr Rem HP's and the accuracy was terrible! It doesn't matter how fast it was going if it won't hit what you are aiming at!

This thread is so long, we need to start a new one, just to make it managable!!!

Seafire