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With charges that are less than 50 of case capacity safety is a huge concern. As Dutch says one must make 100% sure to look into each case with a flashlight. I have been loading reduced charges for a half century and have never had even one bad shot. But others have blown guns up at the range right next to me. The side of the barrel of a Trap Door Springfield just missed me about ten years ago. Others have blown up revolvers with loads made on progressive presses at the range. So far my Blue Dot experiance is just with the 220 Swift and loads with 50 gr bullets at 2400 fps seem very satisfactory. No filler is needed either. Rather than use a big flashlight on the bench I am going to buy a small penlight to use there and try that. | |||
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Hi Guys, I've had good luck with Blue Dot reduced loads in .223 so far. Thanks to you folks for all the good info I've gotten here. To prevent double charging, I've set my stuff up so that when I load powder, I IMMEDIATELY seat a bullet, and then shake the loaded round next to my good ear to verify that I actually charged the case. I also keep primed brass primer up in the block to indicate cases that are ready for powder and bullet. So far so good. Loner  | |||
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Loner, Good method, turning the cases upside down until there is powder in them. I have learned to do that also,,,, works very well. seafire | |||
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Same here. I use a single stage press, so I have a 'safety routine'. Once all the cases are prepped and primed, I'll charge one with powder, eyeball the level, then put it right in the shellholder and seat the bullet. Each round gets inspected and sealed up before moving on to the next one. No problems yet. maxman | |||
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There was an earlier question will the 12.5 gr Blue Dot load cycle an AR-15...Not my AR-15. I loaded 12.5 grs of Blue Dot, under 55 gr FMJBT, crimped, and primed with CCI Small Rifle primers, in LC Brass. The accuracy was good, and the sound was soft, but the bolt did not travel very far. I will retry another load, with 14.5 grs of Blue Dot, after I pull the bullets on the leftovers from this batch. Incidentally, the AR is a Armalite Lower, with a NM trigger, and a Rock River Varminter upper(20" Wilson Stainless bull(1:8), with a Wylde Chamber). With it favorite ammo, and I do my part, it is .5 MOA. The Blue Dot loads, for the small sample we 1 MOA. Squeeze | |||
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I was thrilled to find this thread on 223 and Blue Dot. I have been thinking about a 22 Hornet or K Hornet and really didn't want another caliber to load for. The weather finally got nice enough to get to the range so I headed out with some loads that I worked up following the information I gleaned here. Components Winchester Brass, primer pockets prepped and cases trimmed CCI small rifle primers Blue Dot powder, 17 years old Nosler 40 gr Ballistic Tip Rifle was a Remington 700 SS BDL .223 sporter 22" barrel. The conditions were a bit windy approx 15 mph perpendicular to the targets. Partly summy with temps around 62 degrees. I set up my Oehler chrono and hoped for the best. The following are the results of three shot groups 12.5 grains BD 2863 fps, 11 sd, .397" 13.0 grains BD 2965 fps, 5 sd, .385" 13.5 grains BD 3060 fps, 10 sd, .226" 14.0 grains BD 3079 fps, 11 sd, .291" 14.5 grains BD 3134 fps, 10 sd, .597" either me or the wind. The report was quite mild compared to the other 223 rifle I was shooting with WW748. The barrel never really heated up and I was able to keep the scope on target. This is the most fun I have had in quite a while. I am looking forward to more of this shooting. | |||
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Thank you Safarihunter.  roger | |||
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Just a note on Blue Dot and the .223. I loaded up 20 rounds with about 12.8grs. (a 1.3 Lee dipper leveled with a finger) and a 55gr., bulk bullet. At around 200yds, I was able to hit an empty cigarette pack with all 20 shots with my cheapo NEF single shot. So, with powder prices always heading upward, I can get more than twice the loads out of a pound of Blue Dot compared to the powder I normally use and without taking an accuracy hit. Great thread !!! | |||
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I have a 222 contender pistol with a 10'' barrel and decided to try blue dot after reading this thread. I already have a real accurate load worked up with IMR 4198 and a 50gr. hornady sxsp bullet. Anyway i through together a load of 7.0 gr. of Blue dot and used the same 50gr. hornady sxsp bullet. Took the my chrony out and shot both loads, (the bluedot and full power 4198 max load) The results............. 7.0 gr. Blue dot 50gr. hornady sxsp Velocity.....1575 fps 20.0 gr. IMR 4198 50gr. Hornady sxsp Velocity.....2650 fps Accuracy was tested at 25 yds for the blue dot load as it was really windy out. All three shots went into one ragged hole, measured group size was .255". To say the least i was very impressed but more testing will have to occur at longer range on a calm day. The difference in muzzle blast and noise was tremendous. I noticed at least a 50% reduction in recoil, noise and muzzle blast. THe blue dot loads are a lot quiter and have much less recoil. Just thought i would give my results. Be safe and have fun with those reduced loads. By the way I also check every case with a flash light before seating bullets, Great method. I have been reloading for about five years(im only 20 years old) and have never had a double charge or miss charged case. | |||
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I did some more shooting with Blue Dot in my 223. There were two additional bullets used so I thought that I�d recap previous information with the latest. It was pretty windy and groups suffered but I chrono�d data so I will post results. All loads shot less than 3/4� even with 20 mph gusting winds. I did not notice any signs of excess pressure in my rifle. Your results may vary and should be approached with caution. Powder, Blue Dot Black Hills Match Brass CCI Small Rifle Primers The 40 gr BT loads were shot last weekend with temps around 62 deg and lesser winds The 55gr and 60 gr were shot this weekend with temps around 48 deg and stronger gusting winds Charge 40 gr Nosler BT 55gr Hornady SPSX 60 gr Hornady Barrier 12.5 grains vel 2863 fps 2575 fps 2506 fps sd 11 fps 26 fps 7 fps 13.0 grains vel 2965 fps 2667 fps 2581 fps sd 5 fps 16 fps 10 fps 13.5 grains vel 3060 fps 2742 fps 2652 fps sd 10 fps 9 fps 5 fps 14.0 grains vel 3079 fps 2816 fps 2733 fps sd 11 fps 18 fps 14 fps 14.5 grains vel 3134 fps 2883 fps 2802 fps sd 10 fps 10 fps 5 fps Sorry about the formatting, cut and past doesn't work too well. | |||
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safarihunter, What kind of accuracy are you having with the barrier bullets? We've used them in 2 ea.22-250s & 2ea. .223s and have not had any accurate results. We are looking at 2" groups best out of varmint rifles that are capable of 1/2" or better groups almost all the time.  roger | |||
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I've just begun working with the Barrier bullet. The Blue Dot loads in 223 were just so-so. About 5/8" 4 shot group. I've worked up a load with W748 and have shot 4 shot groups sub 1/2" with a VSSF 223 and a SS BDL sporter 223. It was interesting that the cannelure happens to be located where it sets bullet about 20 thousands off lands. Both rifles have shot 1/4" groups with W748 and 50 gr Nosler BT. | |||
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Some People are making fun about some of us fooling around with Blue Dot. One thing is for sure tho, you can't argue with results. Went out yesterday, and the world is short 105 ground squirrels and the coyotes must have eaten good last night, Most were taken within 150 to 225 yds. For accuracy, explosive performance, and economy, I highly recommend the Winchester 46 grain Hollow Point with a 14.5 grain load of Blue Dot. For what it matters to some, I am also noticing even more accuracy with a Small Pistol primer in these loads as opposed to a Small Rifle. Anyone else experiencing or notice that? Cheers and Good shooting Seafire | |||
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I shot my Marlin 17V 17HMR for the first time this week-end. I don't think I can work the rifle into my act, as the Blue Dot .223 reduced loads can fill that niche and I can do longer and louder shooting with the same .223 rifle with full house loads. I have; .177 pellet, 17HMR, .22 pellet, .22lr, 22mag, .222, .223, .243, 25acp, .243Win, 257 Roberts AI, 6.5 jap, 6.5x55, 7x57mm, 32acp, 32sw, 32S&WLong, 32-20, 7.62x25mm, 30-30, 303Sav, .308, 30-06, 7.5 French, 7.5 Swiss, 7.62x39mm, 303Brit, 7.62x54R, 8x57mm, .380, 9x19mm, 9x23mm, 357 Sig, 38 special, 357 mag, 38sw, 40sw, 10mm, 10.4mm, 44 mag, 45acp, 45Colt, 452/70, .410, 45/70, 20 ga, 16 ga, 12 ga, and 10 ga. I want to narrow that down to: 22LR 223 Remington 257 Roberts Ackley Improved 8x57JS .380 45 acp 12 ga. The threads on Blue Dot loads for .223 have helped me cut out alot of calibers from my plans, like 17HMR, 22 mag, 22 Hornet, and 218 Bee. .223 is my favorite caliber, and I always wonder, "Why can't a .223 be used for this?" I think the .223 just got broader shoulders with Blue Dot. | |||
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Well Clark; When you have to find a new home for that 303 Savage or 6.5 x 55, and 7 x 57 how about giving me a call. I think I can find a home for them at my house, especially the 303 Savage. Any of those VZ 24's you may have, I think I can find a use for a couple of those, to rebarrel to a varmint caliber. Cheers and good shooting, seafire | |||
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Well I finally got to test the 14.5 gr Blue Dot loads, in my Varminter AR-15. Regrettably, these do not cycle the AR either. I am disappointed I really like thesoft report, and the accuracy was acceptable. I guess I am going to have to break down and buy a .223 Rem. bolt gun I have a new excuse for a new GUN!Squeeze | |||
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Squeeze, sorry it did not work out, but glad you have an excuse for getting something you were looking for an excuse to get anyway. NOT cycling the action on an AR, shows that it reduces recoil significantly then. cheers and good shooting seafire | |||
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seafire, To almost answer your question about primers - yes! I'm using up a bunch of CCI 550's (?) small pistol mag that I'll never use elsewhere with my 223/2400 loads. They're even more accurate than loads using SR primers. Besides, I need those for Service Rifle ammo. 2400 burns sooty but it puts the 35gr V-Max's quietly where I aim them! Redial | |||
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Hey Seafire, First off I want to say "Thank You" for championing Reduced Loads. Lots of folks would be better shooters today if they had started using them instead of wide-open full-velocity Loads. A particular buddy comes to mind who was sure he couldn't ever be happy with a 338WinMag because he had had one, used only factory ammo in it and just wasn't able to handle it. After I taught him how to reload, I learned enough about his background that I recommended Reduced Loads as a comparison in his 300WinMag. Once he understood, he got another 338WinMag, began using Reduced Loads, got used to the recoil and can now shoot SAFE MAX Loads. ... I'm one of the folks who has used "2400" for Reduced Loads in the 223Rem, but I'm looking forward to trying some of the Blue Dot. I noticed Stonecreek and Squeeze were attempting to use it in semi-autos with hopes it would cycle. Looking at the Pressure Data provided by Clark(below), it appears to me the Muzzle Pressure has fallen to a point(reduced Pressure Curve and duration) that there just isn't enough left to cycle properly. If it were me, I'd consider swapping the Action Spring to one with a smaller wire diameter, or buying another regular one, cutting a bit of it off(1"-2" at a time) and carefully stretching it back out(so as not to over stress the wire in any one place). And I'd add a Recoil Buffer just in case I went a bit too light. On the other hand, I shoot with a buddy who also has a semi-auto 223Rem and the fact that the Blue Dot Loads "do not cycle" appears to be just what he needs. He really doesn't want to mess with a Brass Catcher and picking up the cases is a problem for his physical condition. And since it doesn't cycle, then there should be no damage to the cases which occurrs in some semi-autos. Basically, it looks like just what he is looking for. Quote: ... The above data from Clark reminded me of some extremely reduced loads I was trying to get to work in a 22Hornet many years ago. I had tried using just "Primers" for power with regular old Crossman Copperhead Lead Pellets(14.4gr). Didn't work because they would foul the barrel quickly(1-2 shots) and then the Pellet would hang in the barrel. Tried very small amounts of Blue Dot and it was blowing the skirts off. Went to very small amounts(less than 1.5gr) of WW-231 and they would work fairly well for 8-10 shots before the barrel had to be cleaned. Switched to the Nylon Skirted Prometheus Pellets(9gr) and was able to use a bit more powder and got better performance - about like a Red Ryder BB gun. ... Hey Seafire, You mentioned having problems using Blue Dot for Reduced Loads in the 30-30. Somewhere in my stuff is an older Hercules Data Manual that "might" have some Blue Dot Loads in it. If you are still interested in using it there, I'd be glad to "try" and locate it for you. What Loads did you try in the 30-30(grains of powder and bullet)? Anyway, I do look forward to trying some of these 223Rem Blue Dots< !--color-->. | |||
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HOT Core: Thanks for the responding post. I have located in the Alliant Load Data sheet you can pick up at gun stores for free, that lists Blue Dot in a 30/30 under the Cowboy loads. I am going to try that. The problem I noticed in the case was that it had expanded too much, it might be just a loose chamber. The 30/30 I was using it in is a 1965 production model and this gun has not be able to hit a barn at 50 yrds from Day One. However, It has been in the family since day one, so I just keep it around. What I wanted to use it in the 30/30 for, is I have tried some of the Speer 110 grain Hollow Point bullets. They are very accurate with SR 4759. One guy out shooting ground squirrels with me, was making fun of me shooting them when they would pop up within 20 to 25 yrds of my 4Runner. So I would hit them with the 223, and they explode to kingdom come. He was saying I should use a 22 LR for the close ones like that. Well instead of that, since I did have a 22 in the truck, just did not see a reason to bring it out, since I was having too much fun with the 223, and the 46 grain HPs. I have another 30/30 with a 6 power Weaver scope I threw on to take out Coyote hunting, but haven't had the chance yet, been too busy on accounts and shooting ( or reloading to shoot). Well when I go out next, I am going to load up about 50 rounds of the 110 grain Hollow Point in the 30/30 for those 25 to 50 yards ones that might pop up close. Should be fun, and I won't have to adjust my objective down for those closer shots. When you do the blue dot thing in the 223, let me know how it works. Funny you mention a 338 Mag of your friend's. I have used Blue Dot in a 444 Marlin, just using 44 Mag load data. It works real well, and no compressed loads. I have seen people use 2400 for reduced loads in Magnums, and Blue Dot is just a little quicker powder, but not by much. So I was going to play with it, in one of my 338s. Some guy at the range the other day, just left 20 rounds of 7 Mag cases. I don't shoot 7 Mag, but I do reform them to 338 cases. So I was going to try a little playing around with that. I figure if I can ( and should be able to easily) get to where the velocity is equal to the original loadings in the 33 Winchester ( around 1900 to 2000 fps) It might be fun just to drag it out once in a while and have fun with it. If It works as well as I hope, I am going to play with it in the '06, 8mm Mauser, 7mm Mauser, 300 Mag and see what happens. Just bought a 5 lb container of it, so I can have some fun experimenting. I'll share the results, for anyone interested. I am sure some people think; I think, Blue Dot is the only powder on the planet. Just for curiosity's sake, I also do a lot of downloading with IMR 4198. I also use a lot of RL7, RL 15, IMR 3031, 4064, 4895. I keep just about a pound at least of most of the major major powders in my cabinet. Such as with RL 7 thru RL 25, IMR 4198 thru 7828, The list of Hodgdon powder I DON'T keep on hand is a smaller list, H 322, Retumbo. My wife is a couch potato in the evenings with her Cable TV. I am instead out in the garage, listening to a country station that plays a lot of Western Swing, Blue Grass, and OLD country music like Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys. What I can good old "PickUP Truck driving music.", and loading ammo to play with. Either at the range or on varmints. Anyways, Cheers and Good shooting Seafire | |||
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Quote: Hey Seafire, Don't know if it would help your older 30-30 or not, but I just spotted in the Cabela's Shooting Catalog some Oregon Trail Laser-Cast Bullets. They have them in a 170gr RNFP GCB that is 0.310". Not sure if the "RNFP" indicates it is a Round Nose Profile with a Flat Tip, but it might be. Of course this won't help a chamber problem if what you suspect is true, but I can remember afew 30-30s from my youth that just shot better with Lead than they did with Jacketed bullets. I got interested in the 30-30 because a buddy hasn't been mentally able to shoot a higher power rifle since he had a Pacemaker installed. He had ordered some loaded 223Rem ammo to use in a semi-auto, and in came 147gr FMJ FN-FAL bullets. He had written the number down wrongand was just going to give them to me. After watching the various threads you and some of the other folks have had about Reduced Loads, it got me to thinking that he could shoot them in Reduced Loads to start with and then work up as he figures out how to do it with the Pacemaker. He just got a new 30-30 NEF and is like a kid at Christmas getting it ready to go. So, I'm sure glad you and the other folks indirectly contributed to his smile. Yes indeed, I'll let you know how it goes with the 223Rem Blue Dots < !--color-->. It will be awhile before I can get to the Range, but I will let you know howwell they do for us. Downloading to older cartridge levels is a way to shoot those old cartridges without having to locate one in good enough condition and at a reasoable price. Good luck as you try them out. HA! Just found a "Classic Country" radio station the other day. I know what you are talking about. Best of luck to all you guys! | |||
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Yeah, Hot Core: I am familar with Oregon Trail bullets here in Oregon. Call them up and they will actually send you some to try out at no charge! This one Model 94, has just never shot worth a dam, except, my Infamous load that a lot of people were really squawking about last summer. 35 grains of W 748 with a 220 grain Sierra Round Nose at 2100 fps. It will get your attention if you are expecting regular 30/30 recoil. However this rifle, along with my other 2 , 30-30s shot this load extremely accurate. That Hodgdon listing for youth loads using H 4895 should grab you or your friends attention. I loaded up some using the recommended load with a 150 grain bullet. I use a 150 grain Hornady flat nose, and it gave me a 1/2 group at 50 yds and a 3/4 inch group at 100 yds, from a Model 94 Legacy with a 24 inch barrel and a 6 power Weaver scope. ( Yeah people I know that is probably too much Scope for a 30/30, but It was sitting around not being used, looks good on the rifle and cleans up the accuracy since I can't see squat with open sites anymore). Finally you and Clark should love my experiment results this afternoon: You got me going on it last night with the 338 Story. Since I had it on my To Do List: 338 Mag, with a 200 grain bullet and Blue Dot. Then I have to take a Cub Scout group out on a Camp out tonight. Cheers and Good shooting Seafire | |||
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Quote: Hey Seafire, I'd not thought about you "being in" Oregon!  Good scoop about the samples though, we might just do that. Thanks.Since you described your 220gr 30-30 load as having stiff recoil, that is really not something my buddy needs right now. But, the 60% H4895 with the 147gr bullets was where we were originally headed. I'm still looking for the old Hercules Powder Manual and I do think it has a few 30-30 Blue Dot loads in it. I'll keep in mind you mentioned you didn't have much luck with it there. He just stuck a 3-9x on his because of the exact same reasons you mentioned. Should help a good bit during the shooting while developing the Load. I personally like a good bit of power in my scopes, so it never crossed my mind as being too much. And best of luck with the 338! | |||
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Red Dot works very well in the 30-30, try 8.5grs with a 110gr bullet | |||
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Hey Major Caliber, Thank you! I'll copy that down for my buddy. | |||
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Seafire/B-17G Seafire said; I figure if I can get to where the velocity is equal to the original loadings in the 33 Winchester (around 1900 to 2000 fps) 338 Mag looks just like a 33 Winchester with the Lee 220 grain CGC or the Hornady 200 FN (no longer available) and 39.0 grains of 3031 (most accurate 338 load I have with both bullets). I realize it is NO LONGER a fire breathing dragon with that loading, but our deer really don't seem to notice the difference at our close in shooting distances!  Please let me know what you come up with with BD that equals this. Maybe it will work with my 200 gr. CGC RCBS, no other load has. Seafire said; If It works as well as I hope, I am going to play with it in the '06, 8mm Mauser, 7mm Mauser, 300 Mag and see what happens. Please post your 06, 8mm results! | |||
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TC Louis; IMR 3031 is a fine powder, and would also be on the top 5 of my list for use in the 338. the 338 results are on the handloading section of the board. Next results out will be the 270 Winchester. I picked it, for the reduced recoil effects with a rifle that was equipped with a BOSS. This is the only rifle I have with a Boss. I had a 30/06 that I rebarreled to 6.5 x 57 but I kept the barrel with the Boss on it, for future use. The proof of reduced recoil is apparent because most of these blue dot loads will not recycle an auto's bolt. cheers and good shooting seafire | |||
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Seafire, I just loaded 12.0 gr to test with a 22" barrel NEF Handi rifle. Went out back and shot one round with a little more noise than I was expecting! I was so disappointed I went in and loaded some more! I'm wondering if Green Dot can be used as well? I have about 5# that needs to find a use. | |||
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Paul, I have debated testing Green Dot in the 223. It would be more a shorter range affair. I think it would be good to duplicate the 22 Long Rifle, and the 22 Mag; Possibly the, 218 Bee and the Hornet. Cheers and Good shooting Seafire | |||
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Seafire, I found an older thread that addressed the Green Dot loads, but was using the lighter bullets. Quote:I wasn't planning on using that light of a bullet, but it gives me a general idea of where to start. One of the guys at handloads.com ask about whether you had done anything with the .35 Whelen and reduced loads. | |||
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Hey Seafire, I did manage to locate one older(1987) Hercules "Reloader's Guide" so far. It has a couple of Loads that might be of interest to folks reading this thread. These were shot in 14" barrels and are termed Silhouette Loads: 30-30 152gr Cast Lead.....13.0gr Blue Dot gave 1525fps at 29.0k cups 152gr Cast Lead.....16.0gr "2400" ..gave 1650fps at 33.3k cups 170gr Rem SPCL......16.0gr "2400" ..gave 1500fps at 34.7k cups 35Rem 158gr Hornady Lead..15.5gr Blue Dot gave 1574fps at 25.2k cups 158gr Hornady Lead..21.0gr "2400" ..gave 1715fps at 25.3k cups 170gr Sierra FMJ....13.0gr Blue Dot gave 1300fps at 22.4k cups 170gr Sierra FMJ....17.0gr "2400" ..gave 1450fps at 23.4k cups 200gr Rem SPCL......22.0gr "2400" ..gave 1650fps at 31.7k cups ... It also has some regular Centerfire Rifle Loads using "2400", but no Blue Dot Loads. Here are the cartridges. If anyone wants the "2400" data from Hercules, let me know. 221 Fireball, 223Rem, 25/20Win, 30Carbine, 308Win, 375Win, 38/55Win, 444Mar, 45/70Gov't, and the 458WinMag. | |||
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HObie, I have picked up some 2400 powder and I plan to play with that a little also. Their loading pamphlet does have loads for the 30/06 using 2400. I am going to try it and compare it to the results that I found out with Blue Dot. Thanks for sharing the info with the rest of us. Cheers and Good shooting Seafire | |||
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Paul; I haven't done anything with the 35 Whelan. I don't own one. When I was debating a cartridge bigger than an '06 but not a magnum, I decided to go with the 338/06 instead of the Whelan. However, frequently I use Whelan load data as a starting point to work up from, since some manuals have a lot more load info on it than on the 338/06. I do plan to play with the 338/06 on this project, but I was looking for loads to use with 180 and 200 grain Ballistic tips. Whelan's don't have any bullets in this weight range, except for the 200 grain and it is more for the 35 Remington as I understand. Thanks for the load data on the Green Dot loads for a 223. I have some of those in my Lyman 47th edition manual. I was debating on those loads for a Winchester Featherweight in 223 I have as a walking rifle. Cheers and Good shooting Seafire | |||
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Seafire, I have loaded my .35 Whelen for years with a 200 gr Hornady PSP with 53.0 gr IMR 3031 in .30-06 cases (this is an accuracy load, not max). Speer #13 has the 180 gr Flat-SP loads on page 378. You might be able to get by with Hodgdon's 60% H4895 reduced load (max is 58.0 gr compressed with 180 gr bullet, start is 54.0 gr). I don't know if this helps, but hope it does! Quote: Quote: | |||
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I actually shot some 55 gr Rem PSP with 12.0 gr Blue Dot today. The group was about 3 3/4", but that wasn't too bad considering the bullets I used haven't grouped well in anything I have shot them in. The range was 100 yards for this group.  | |||
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Posted another group with 12.0 gr Blue Dot today at this location. I added another Blue Dot target and a Green Dot target to the post referenced above. | |||
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Has anyone tried a blue dot load in a 6.5x55mm? The gun would be a 1943 Husqvarna m38. I was just wandering about the safety issue in this rifle. Seems to be in good shape and handles all the standard loads fine. I didn't mean to butt in, I just didn't want to start a new thread for this. | |||
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X-51 It's on my list of things to do. roger | |||
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