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I purchased a Kimber 84M Montana in .257 Roberts a few years back and have slowly been working with it. I cannot get the advertised 3-shot MOA group. I feel like for $1300 and a MOA guarantee, I should be able to get 3-shot groups in the 1.0-1.25" range. Am I being unreasonable? Should I keep trying, or should I cut my losses and find another rifle? Specifics follow: Nosler factory ammo (110 grain Accubond) will shoot around 2 MOA with groups ranging from 1.0" to 2.75". I haven't tried more factory ammo because it's expensive and I like handloading. My handloads using 100 grain Barnse TSX, 100 grain Nosler E-Tips, 110 grain Hornady Interbond, and 120 grain Sierra Game-Kings all average around 2" 3-shot groups as well. I've used various combinations of powder with the above bullets, to include: IMR-4064, IMR-4831, IMR-4451, H414, Varget, RL-15 and W748. All loads use Nosler brass and Federal GM210M primers. The Kimber 84M rifles use a short action, so I can't really play with seating depth. I'm limited to SAAMI overall cartridge lengths. The best load I've got is 117 grain Sierra Pro-Hunters and IMR-4064 at 2640 fps. The last 3-shot groups I fired went 0.65", 1.25", 1.75". In the past some of these groups have gone 1", 1.5", 2.0", so I think that this is an overall 1.75" rifle with this load. I sent it back to Kimber to get checked out, and they did so with no complaints, on their dime. All I got back was a single 3-shot group measuring 0.75" shot with Remington Core-Lokts. No word on if anything was done to the rifle or if that was the only group fired. I've checked action screws, made sure there's no barrel contact along the forearm, double checked all the screws on my scope mount, made sure the scope doesn't shift in its rings. | ||
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Certainly not the first "issue" with a Kimber. I think you've tried enough combinations that something would have shown progress. | |||
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Have you tried the Remington Core-Lokts? Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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...the obvious question..  also, have you checked your loads for runout? | |||
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If I were in your shoes I would do the following and if that did not produce a 3 shot 1" group consistent I would unload the rifle. I would try Sierra 117 SPBT bullets with a strong dose of IMR4350. (my load is 41.5 grains IMR4350)I would load 3 shots that are as long as the magazine allows as long as they are not into the lands and another set seated .010 deeper and another .010 deeper and another .010 deeper. Shoot these 4 sets of 3 at individual targets and look for the best group and fine tune that load by slightly varying the seating depth. The above load shoots extremely well in 5 different 257 Roberts. One other 257 Rob liked 100 grain Sierra's and IMR4064. If it shows no vast improvement with the above loads and methods I would sell, trade, re barrel... | |||
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I dunno . . . that seems like an awful lot of effort to prove the factory right, and right only in a limited sense. Me? I'd sell it. (I recently traded my formerly tack-driver custom 6mm Rem in because it no longer could put 3 shots into 1.25 inches. It had great sentimental value for me and it was tough to do.) | |||
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Have you carefully checked over the rifle: inletting, bedding, barrel pressure, etc. Answers can often be found there... | |||
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Yes start there as a baseline. If indeed it does what the factory did than it has to be something in your reloading routine or not to insult you but are you capable shooting small groups with that rifle? Stock fit, how you hold it or? Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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If you had a 270 WSM, I would think you bought the POS Montana that I had from Kimber. It never shot close to an inch before or after I sent it back to Kimber. I tried numerous loads, and sold it. I wouldn't own another if it were free. NRA Patron member | |||
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257 robs seem to be a bit harder to get to shoot well. At least in my experience I owned 3 my current one is. | |||
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My sympathy. My 1909 Argentine Mauser with a Douglas featherweight barrel can be counted upon to produce groups just over or under an inch at 100 yd. with Nosler Ballistic Tips and almost any reasonable load of IMR 4350. I'd unload it; as Whelen said, "Only accurate rifles are interesting". Clarence | |||
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New barrel! Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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I recently bough a Kimber Hunter in 257R and haven't played with it much yet. What I found was that it would shoot the first round from a clean barrel "out" of the group. I posted this in another thread. | |||
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http://forums.accuratereloadin...6711043/m/3701059622 | |||
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Lilja has a print for a slightly thicker contoured 84M sporter barrel. I don't know if there is enough width in your stock for it. I'd go Krieger 1-9" on this contour. -http://riflebarrels.com/wp-content/uploads/mod84m.pdf- Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Another load you might try is 43 to 45 grains of H4350 under a 115 grain partition. Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Check the web for articles on accurizing Kimbers. There are a couple of common problem areas including relieving the magazine box which can rock. Full disclosure, I just found this and have not tried it. I have however played "Kimber roulette " several times, and lost. I'll forever regret unloading the Super America 7-08 that I couldn't get to shoot better than 2 inches. Best of luck with yours. Larry | |||
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My 223 Montana needed tweeking. Not enough clearance for the whippy light barrel .Shim under front of receiver made real free floating ,cutting groups in half ! Internal magazine was too long. You just have to go through the check list .Might be able to do more but I just used factory ammo. But I got 1/2" groups . | |||
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Funny thing about 117 Remington Core Lock 257- Every 257Roberts or AI (fire forming) I have owned has grouped that round well at 100 yds Even rifles that did not like any other load To date I am still uncertain as to why | |||
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Have you done a chamber cast? I had a M700 Mountain Rifle DM in 280 Rem that shot 2"-3" groups no mater what I fed it. (My 7mm-08 in the same pattern shot 3/8" groups with Nosler Premium factory ammo) I did a chamber cast and found that the chamber/throat was .004" off center from the bore. Remington replied that it should not affect accuracy!. I traded it in on another rifle. GOOGLE HOTLINK FIX FOR BLOCKED PHOTOBUCKET IMAGES https://chrome.google.com/webs...inkfix=1516144253810 | |||
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Appreciate all the suggestions. I will have to check the magazine box, haven't looked at that one yet. I'll double check the barrel as well, though I've looked at that once already. The seating depth trick may work in some rifles, but as mentioned, this rifle model uses a genuinely short, short action. If I seat all the bullets out as far as the magazine will allow, and that will get me to about 2.777". If I try running a seating ladder on this rifle, I'll have bullets seated to below their ogive. I haven't tried the Core-Lokts because they're not readily available, I don't want to spend that much on a basic cup and core load, I don't buy Remington products anymore, and ultimately I want to be shooting lead-free rounds. And finally, no offence to the suggestion on shooter capability. It's an obvious question. What I'll say is that this is all off a bench using sandbags. Two, I consistantly get 1.5" 3-shot groups with my .416 Rem Mag and handloads off of shooting sticks at a 100 yards. And the Marine Corps has seen fit to call me both rifle and pistol expert since 2009. | |||
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Most likely because they are throated for the heavy roundnose. A manufacturer isn't going to chamber a rifle that won't take all factory ammo, and that leaves many spitzers and boat-tails taking a leap of faith. The 7mm Mauser and .375 are in the same boat; the round nose bullets that they were designed around is sometimes what it takes to make them work. That doesn't mean that they are the only thing that will work, but if they don't then it's really time to quit. | |||
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It would be advantageous to play with the seating depth. If it is indeed throated long it could be your problem. That can be cured by setting the barrel back a little to accommodate the length bullets you plan to load. Joe | |||
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I have never heard of a problem with a Kimber in Australia. I know several Australians that have multiple Kimber rifles. One couple I know both shoot, and have 5 or 6 of them with no problems. Several of my Aussie friends own them. In America I know of tons of people that have had problems with them including me. They must ship the guns made on Monday and Friday out to American dealers, and the good ones go abroad. | |||
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We had the same problem with my dad's Kimber Select Grade 257 Roberts. It shot ok but never as good as we wanted it too until we tried 110 gr Accubonds and 43 gr of IMR 4451 with a CCI 200 primer and Remington cases seated at 2.830 OAL. That seemed to be the magic load for this rifle and it now consistently shoots sub 1" groups. We had tried a lot of other bullets with results like you were getting and had even tried the 110 Accubonds before without much luck, but now it shoots amazing with that combo. I just bought a Dakota model 10 in 257 Roberts and the accuracy with it was being a little sperattic but I believe that was a problem with the cases. I was using Jamison brass since it was the only thing readily available then. The Jamison brass is much thicker and the primer pockets are very deep which was causing primers to jump back against the breech face and flatten primers even with light loads, and I was getting a velocity spread of about 115 FPS over a 3 shot group. I was using Fed GM210M primers and switched to CCI 200's and that cut the velocity spread in half. I finally found some Nosler brass and it is supposed to be here today, so I'm really anxious to see if that will cure the problem. | |||
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Interesting that your dad's rifle had different length magazine, even though it was still a short action. As I mentioned prior, I can only seat bullets out to 2.777" overall, so pretty much no options for anything other than very deep seating. I spoke with a gunsmith today, and I'm trying one more round of loads and then sending it in to have him go over it and plus check on some of the suggestions mentioned above. Appreciate all the input. | |||
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The 2.830 is the max length that our magazine will hold. That is kind of strange that yours is even shorter. Even at 2.830 it is still having to jump quite a ways. One other thing you may want to try is placing a piece of business card in the barrel channel at the forend tip to put a little upward pressure on the barrel. I've had a couple of rifles before that this has helped the accuracy on. Hopefully you can get the rifle to shoot satisfactorily. The Kimber 257s truly are great little hunting rifles. I took my first antelope this year with ours. | |||
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I also just picked up a select grade in 257 Roberts. I had some left over loads from another rifle using h4350 and 100 grain ballistic tips, these are shooting around 1 inch groups. I did have to seat the bullets a little deeper for this rifle, they are at 2.82 oal. I'm sure I can do better with some experimentation, but this load shoots a little over 3100fps and is accurate enough for me. | |||
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Have you cleaned barrel? | |||
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Try Federal Premiums, if it doesn't shoot them well, sell it. If you want to know why read this. About 40yrs ago I bought a 25-06 Remington Varmint Special. I soon started reloading. I had a little help, but very little. I loaded up to max and stopped. I set my OAL by matching factory loads. At that time, until today I usually only shot 5 shot groups. I was shooting 1-1.5" groups. I was happy enough. About that time a gun shop owner gave me some 'new' Federal Premium ammo. Federal, at that time was considered a low rent brand sold at big box stores. I gave it a try. I was amazed. First group, right at an inch. Second group, a little better. I didn't know it at the time, but it probably reflected on my reloading ability. What it did do was make me a believer in the accuracy of Federal Premiums. I'm the senior of my hunting/ reloading buddies by 20yrs. When we buy a new gun, we usually try Federal Premiums first. If it doesn't shoot them well, it's probably not a shooter. Captdavid "It's not how hard you hit 'em, it's where you hit 'em." The 30-06 will, with the right bullet, successfully take any game animal in North America up to 300yds. Get closer! | |||
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You mentioned it was garenteed to shoot an inch, send it back..probably needs a new barrel or the inletting is sloppy..but its up to the manufacturer to determine why it won't shoot any better than that. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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If you are still up to it, try some shorter bullets, say some 75 - 100 gr lead core. Typical Roberts twist is 1 in 10", maybe you have a cranky barrel that only wants to stabilize short bullets. Of course if that does it, it makes it kinda useless for hunting anything large. Very frustrating!  | |||
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Years ago I had a Douglas barreled .257 with a varmint weight barrel which would never shoot anything other than Sierra 75 grain flat base bullets. It DID like them, however, to the point that I once killed two crows with one shot at about 200 yards using it and the 8X Unertl 1" target scope I had mounted on it. | |||
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In my opinion if you have to mess with a gun to get it to shoot, its a lemon and in reality needs a new tube..Even if you find a load that will shoot and inch, your limited to that one load..Not acceptable to me.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Here is a link to a pretty comprehensive thread on improving a Kimber. It did wonders for Mrs Blacktailer's Super America. http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...hp/topics/11318751/1 Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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   Rebarreling is what all this stuff will lead you to do. In cut rifle barrels, Krieger, Bartlein, Classic (Dan Pederson),Brux, and McGowan are all good. These barrels can take four to six months to arrive. They have always been worth the weight to me. In button rifling, Lilja is awesome, Pac-Nor hit or miss, Shilen, Douglas, both very good. Here is the kicker. Before rebarreling you need to have the threads in your receiver cut concentric with a single point cutter while the receiver is in a cutting fixture like the one Greg Tannel designed, and Pacific Tool and Gauge makes. That is the round piece of sewer pipe above. Your gunsmith will then run a bolt racewway reamer through the action. It is positioned correctly with the bushings (second from top) This trues your action to 0.0001" to 0.0002" after the receiver threads are recut with a single point cutter tip. With a straight action you can get a straight barrel put on. Your rifle will shoot better, girls will want to have your baby, and you win the powerball lottery.  | |||
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You mentioned the max length for the magazine, but as others have said, that doesn't mean that is a good length for your chamber. I have a Kimber 84M in 338 Federal that I loaded to the Barnes specified distance from the lands (based on the lock and load modified case - 2.83"). Shot great (~0.5 MOA with cool down and a slip on recoil pad  ) and didn't think of the COAL until opening morning when I went to load the magazine; they don't fit. My rifle is throated longer than my magazine will allow and is a single shot to me. Long story short, do you know the COAL to to reach the lands with the bullets you are using? If the "Montana tinkering" thread on 24hcf doesn't help, I'll bet your reloads and some factory loads are making quite a jump to your lands which isn't good for your accuracy attempts. ______________________ Ken A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in. --- Greek Proverb | |||
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I've occasionally had a rifle that shot like this Kimber. I've learned the hard way to either rebarrel them, along with action blueprinting, pillar bedding, etc. or just get rid of them. Sounds to me like the factory is just giving you the run around. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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Exactly. How much do you want to do to prove that Kimber is right, and then with only one or two loads? | |||
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