I've run across a number of mentions of the 250 Savage as being a "250 yard deer cartridge". OK, with bullet weights from 85 to 120 grains the deer part I'll buy. But the 250 yard bit...

Looking at my Nosler #3 manual, it shows 3 loads for the 100 grain BT at 2800 fps or better, out of a 22" barrel no less. Comparing Nosler's velocities vs those in Hodgdon's 2004 manual which presents data with a 26" barrel, it would appear that pressures for Nosler's loads are higher than 44k CUP but probably well within the 50k CUP that typical modern brass handles. Heck, .22-250 brass does, and its the same stuff, or oughta be.

Anyway, that 100 grain NBT at 2800 fps retains 2143 fps and 1019 ft-lb at 300 yards according to Nosler's ballistic tables. Similarly, a 120 grain Partition started at 2600 fps retains 1968 fps and 1032 ft-lb at 300 yards.

So, is it the case that traditional thinking about the 250 Savage is based on factory ammo at traditional velocities? Would anybody here claim the Savage isn't a 300 yard proposition for handloaders?

CouchTater,

My 6BR shoots 105 amax at 2815fps, 26", and my longest deer kill was right at 400 yds, double lunged, I believe this high BC amax retains 1000 ft lbs.....at 400yds. The deer went maybe 25 yds, and was so sick on it's feet, it could not get over the fence it was next to, having so little recoil, seeing the hit, it looked like a much larger caliber cartridge hit that deer.

That 250 is easy 300 yds, with shot placement. That 100 btip, should give good energy, expansion, and penetration, perhaps better expansion than the 120, don't know, but I'd likely choose the 100gr if shooting far out, to initiate expansion. I shoot the amax, as it is VERY destructive, and deadly when put into lungs, as it explodes, even though I did get a pass through at 400 with my BR, velocity was reduced at that distance.

Don't sweat using a 250 savage with good loads within 300 yds.

Rather off topic, but since you're using the Amax for deer I'll ax. I've looked at Lilja's website and a forum or two where long range hunting is discussed, and there are two kinds of posts/pages; those that describe acceptable terminal performance at long range from SMKs and the like, and those which abhor any field use of match bullets. But what I have not seen is a methodical analysis of what velocities those things work properly at. Do you know of such a discussion or writeup?

p.s. I was flipping through O'Connor's "The Big Game Rifle" last night and ran across his discussion of the 250 in the chapter on mountain rifles, and he quotes a 100 grain bullet at 2800 fps, with 2900 possible to the handloader. Of course a lot of his velocities are pretty darn warm by today's standards. And yet O'Connor also states that the 250 Savage is a 250 yard cartridge, the implication being retained velocity is the limiting factor. But I've read a number of times that Partitions perform properly down to 1800 fps impact speed. Hmmph.

Let's say you are carrying a .250-3000 and you spot a deer on the hill side. You estimate the distance to be 285 yards. You hesitate for a moment realizing that you always fall short on the golf course because you never look at the yardage makers and you always under estimate the distance. Do you or do you not take the shot?

If I was hunting deer with a 250-3000 and a good opportunity was available at 250 yards I'd take it easily.....
It's a lot of spunk for a small case and 100 grains of bullet.

Have one being built on a left hand mini-mauser. No idea yet when it will be ready to shoot (stockmaker is backed up). I've seen the .250 used at long ranges (at least 300yds) down in Texas on whitetails and it seemed quite effective. I'm hoping to have first hand experience with it on mule deer this fall.

imho it depends on experience with and confidence in your rifle and load. if your preparation is one session and five shots at the range the 250/3000 is probably not an effective 250yds. choice. however, if you shoot regularly at various distances and know with confidence that point of aim and point of impact are the same it is an excellent choice. i have been shooting this round for many years and can remember only once when a second shot was necessary and that was shooter error.

I have shot 1 large doe with the 250. 120 gr speer flat base at 2,550 fps. 316 measured by survey tools(did not believe my range finder). I did not know how far she was, held on the spine & the bullet destroyed the heart. Just hunted all 1 year with the 250.. fun but moved back to my Roberts.

Sounds like hairsplitting and nitpicking to me. The .250-3000 is a great little cartridge, and about perfect for eastern hunting. It's not what I would carry were I expecting 250-300 yard shots, but I would not pass up such a shot under ideal conditions.

It ain't what you hit them with, it's where you hit them.

I do have to say:

1) I had a few practice range sessions with my 6BR at 415 yds, and using a 6-24x 4200 mil dot scope, the shot was honestly EASY.

2) http://www.ttha.com/224tth.htm

http://jacksonrifles.com/vldvarmints.htm

also, see longrangehunting.com

for info on 'soft target/match type bullets' used for hunting.

There are many who use nothing but, and those who have had failures and/or condemn the use.

I think the amax is a sure thing on expansion, and to be used on a shot where you KNOW you can avoid bone and get it into vitals.

Moments before my 400 yds double lung deer kill, I dropped another deer at 200 with a spine shot, bullet did not exit, nothing left but lead and copper 'dust' if you will. You must avoid bone and only go for lung or perhaps neck shots. My 40 yds doe never knew what hit her this year, 6 br, same amax, head shot. Deer was at dusk, did not want to risk any trailing job, so I head shot her, and avoiding any hassles, and meat loss. DRT.

These types of bullets are used by many experienced loaders/target shooters, often with great success, including Sierra MK but results can and do vary, but most seem to do fine, and they place their shots well.

Dropped a hog this year with 243 and 85 x bullet at 240 yds, if I had been using the 105/6BR combo, I'd aimed only for the head. Likely to use the same 85 x in the BR when planning on hogs in the future. Even that bullet, shoulder shot, wrecked lungs, underside of spine, failed to penetrate completely, stopping right at the hide. They are tough. Nothing to blame the bullet-DRT kill. It no doubt would have exited a deer at that distance. At long range, frangible bullets tend to do better than close up, and perhaps better than 'harder' ones far out, as they open giving often needed expansion/shock value.

Hope that helps.

Given a good load and someone who knows what they are doing behind the gun, the .250 Savage is easily a 250 yard deer cartridge -- even from a 14-15" pistol barrel. For a number of years I used a custom XP and later an Encore barrel in .250 Savage (not to mention a .257 JDJ, which is a ballistic twin to the Savage)and enjoyed terrific results on varmints and deer-sized game. My favorite projectile: the 100 grain Ballistic Tip. But the 85 grain Ballistic Tip and 87 grain Hornady also dropped quite a bit of game for me.

I've taken deer, auodad, Texas dall, blackbuck, hogs and coyotes with these handguns out to ranges approaching 300 yards. So if it does this well from a 14-15" pistol barrel, it will certainly be equally effective (or moreso) from a rifle.

What 6.5BR touched on regarding the A-max is right on the money. I currently use the 140 grain A-Max in a 6.5x30-30 IMP at 2500+ fps with superb results. I loaded a few for a friend's 6.5x55 at virtually the same velocity level, and she took a super buck this season at app. 150 yards. She nailed the buck with a perfect shot through the lungs, and she says he went down fast and didn't even twitch.

Hornady has recently beefed up the A-Max series, but they still afford excellent low-velocity expansion. For someone who enjoys specialty pistol cartridges or rounds such as the 6.5x30-30 IMP in a Contender rifle as I do, the A-Max makes a fine medium game bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Let's say you are carrying a .250-3000 and you spot a deer on the hill side. You estimate the distance to be 285 yards. You hesitate for a moment realizing that you always fall short on the golf course because you never look at the yardage makers and you always under estimate the distance. Do you or do you not take the shot?

If I have a LRF, then based on paper ballistics I would, given:
- known trajectory from range work
- a good field rest or time to set up in sitting position w/ sling
- a load and bullet that is known to expand at the expected impact velocity
note that the above criteria would be the same whether shooting a 250 Savage or a 35 Whelen. Aside from my shooting skill, the biggest variable would be the magnitude of drop off of a 200 yard zero relative to the breadbasket of a local whitetail (which ain't very big here in VA).

My understanding of field shooting is that the important factors, in rank order, are;
- bullet placement
- bullet construction
- impact energy
Unless there's some factor I'm overlooking, the 250 Savage has no great weakness on bullet placement, and given its relative low cost of handloaded ammo it should allow a lot more range practice, and there are plenty of semi-premium and premium .257" bullets. The only question mark is remaining velocity/energy, but the paper numbers at 300 yards don't look all that bad to me.

quote:

Originally posted by CouchTater:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bartsche:
If I have a LRF, then based on paper ballistics I would, given:-

Why ,I think you've answered you own question and nicely, nicely I might add. roger

If any spitzer bullet is checked on the ballistics charts, as long as it has an MV of 2250 to 2300 fps at the muzzle...

If zeroed 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, it will dead on at 200 yrds and about 3.5 inches low at about 240 yds...

Since ANY full grown deer is 14 inches or better from backbone to chest bone..the above target area of 3.5 high at 100 to 3.5 inches low at 240 yds, gives a window of opportunity in the vitals of 7 inches.. which is exactly half of the target zone in real life..

If someone can hold the rifle steady enough and aims at hair within 250 yds, they should be able to place a bullet within the vitals..

a 100 grain to 120 grain bullet in 257 Diameter is more than enough at that MV to drop a full sized deer within 250 yds.. all one has to do is properly place their bullet...

if your MV is higher than 2300 fps, then this makes this window of opportunity even easier to hit due to flatter trajectory...

I have dropped several blacktail on the spot at 300 yds, with a 260 Rem shooting 100 grain bullets.. even tho the MV was at 3350...I have made loads for kids, or recommended load data, shooting the 6.5 and 257 Bores with MVs about 2400 with 100 grain bullets and they have dropped deer in Arkansas, Texas Oklahoma, Louisiana, New Mexico, Arizona California, Oregon, Washington, and Montana.. from emails I have gotten after their successes...

Seafire, since you're a .260 guy, maybe you've tried this. A 140 grain bullet driven by about 35 grains of go powder to 2400-2500 fps gives only around 11 ft-lb of recoil in a 7.5 lb gun, according to my spreadsheet. Ballistics ain't too awful either. Have you messed around with this sort of load?

I'm thinking this would be a good "woods load" for me since I live in hardwood country, but there's not much published out there for the 260 that I know of and even less on this kind of downloaded thing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CouchTater:
Seafire, since you're a .260 guy, maybe you've tried this. A 140 grain bullet driven by about 35 grains of go powder to 2400-2500 fps gives only around 11 ft-lb of recoil in a 7.5 lb gun, according to my spreadsheet. Ballistics ain't too awful either. Have you messed around with this sort of load?

What you suggest would be adequate. I've used and killed Large mule deer with a 6.5 Carcano with 140 grain bullets going only 2300 fps. roger

I think sometimes the hype of industry publications/writers etc. has a bigger is better and faster is better, yet a balance of a mild recoiling round, of a mild cartridge with say 250-3000 ballistics, does the same job today if not better with today's bullets, that it did decades ago, even though we have more 'magnum cartridges' on the scene. It takes no more ft. lbs of energy, etc. to kill an animal today than a century earlier. Shot placement, penetration and expansion of a decent bullet into/thru vitals is always a good hedge towards a solid kill, regardless of paper numbers. The numbers are relative, but not absolute.

I can tell you, many would have scoffed at me shooting a 6mm BR at a 400 yds deer, but having used it enough at the range to KNOW where/how to place the shot, I had NO doubt what the result was going to be, esp at my instant DRT moments earlier on a closer deer.

I put the second mil dot (200 yd zero) 3-4 inches above center, anticipating a dead center lung hit, and that is exactly what I achieved. I had not ranged it, but the landowner had ranged from the stand to the corner of his property line, so I held for a 400 yd shot.

Now regardless of cartridge and load choice, bullets drop fast out of any cartridge, some more than others, beyond 300 esp with 200 zero, now Seafire I believe uses a 250 zero, and I am reconsidering getting my guns re-set for that, and learning the numbers based on a 250 POI zero, as it will help eliminate some error in ranging, ESP. when a LRF is not on hand. Assuming a 200 yds zero, 300 puts many bullets 7-10" down, but 400 can be 18-24".

This tells us that it is VERY critical to estimate range properly IF we are to confidently choose to fire at game at ranges much beyond 300, and desire a quick kill, REGARDLESS of foot lbs etc.

I think the bullet drop and wind drift for that matter too is one of the biggest variables at long range, more importance in getting that right, as one likely can hold a better MOA vs how much the drop/drift will be, but we must know WHERE to hold, or how much to click up/or which dot/reference mark in reticle to use.

Those variables to me weigh heavier than cartridge choice.

I might add, to the OP, my 105 amax choice mentioned earlier has to do with 4 things:

1) Premium accuracy (have shot .498 3 shots at 330 yds with a Ruger #1 in 6BR) that equals confidence

2) Great retained energy, good drop, and better drift than many other bullets minimizing wind errors

3) Positive expansion due to soft design, yet limiting myself to never shooting requiring a bullet to drive through bone, or a bad angle to vitals

4) Last, every animal hit, and as expected 2 deer one neck other head shot died DRT as expected, but the lung hit deer died very fast, as did a head shot coyote at 175 yds (again the accuracy factor), a lung hit coyote-DRT at about 75 yds shoulder/lung (which I expect a deer would do similar-close range lung hit high velocity shrapnel-should die practically on spot-and will hit some closer deer next season to tell), all my kills have been IN tracks, except the 400 yds lung shot deer-25 yds or so, all of that gives me confidence. I have yet to have been disappointed in how fast this combo kills for me.

The 105 amax at 2815 works for me, not say you were using a 240 weatherby, I'd prefer to only use that same bullet in that hot rod at much longer range, as a close range 'splash hit effect' might allow an animal to run and w/o blood trail.

Use that 250 Savage with complete confidence, enjoy low recoil longer range sessions learning the trajectory, and squeeze on game with good shot presentation with 100% faith that you will be pulling out your skinning knife soon!

Many comparatively 'lower powered cartridges' are completely adequate with good shot placement and good bullet choices, despite the choice of some to MAGNUMITIZE the average deer hunter with UMPTEEN foot lbs of energy.

There are valuable VIRTUES of lighter recoiling rounds and SHOOTABILITY can sometimes make them deadlier than heavier recoiling rifles on the opposite extreme. A good hit with a 250 savage may serve you much better than a bad flinched shot with a gun you are not comfortable trying to squeeze off.

Keep us posted on your success stories with that 250 Savage. Before the 243 arrived, it was THE varmint/deer combo round of the day, and many one gun hunters were served well long ago, and they were better marksman for it. Many 25 fans argue, the 250 savage loaded to it's potential is AS GOOD if not Better than 243's, especially on deer, not giving up anything on varmints with say 75grainers. I won't argue that as it would be a close debate either way. Long live the classic 250/3000, one of a favorite deer rifle choice of none other than Jim Carmichael in a shortened Mauser action, mannlicher stocked IIRC.

My bad, not mannlicher stocked on the 250, but here is the article.....

http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/gear/gunvault/articl...912,537312-5,00.html

and pics


http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/gear/gunvault/articl...19912,537382,00.html

Hope that adds to your confidence.....

quote:

So, is it the case that traditional thinking about the 250 Savage is based on factory ammo at traditional velocities? Would anybody here claim the Savage isn't a 300 yard proposition for handloaders?

The .250 Savage with a good 100 to 115-grain load at 2800 or so MV will very definitely take deer at 300 yards......

The .250 Savage case, in a bolt-action, can be loaded to the same pressure levels as any similar case such as the 6mm Remington, .257 Roberts, etc. However, if it is loaded hot for use in a bolt-action, it can and does give sticky extraction in a Savage 99!

quote:

It takes no more ft. lbs of energy, etc. to kill an animal today than a century earlier. Shot placement, penetration and expansion of a decent bullet into/thru vitals is always a good hedge towards a solid kill, regardless of paper numbers. The numbers are relative, but not absolute.

That's what's been bugging me about the cartridge selection game (and the rifle battery selection game, by implication). 1000-1200 ft-lb for deer, and 1800-2000 ft-lb for elk, though somewhere I've seen 1600 ft-lb for elk. How on earth can a bull elk require less than twice the oomph as a whitetail?

And then you start perusing the factory ballistics tables with your 1200 ft-lb criterion in mind to find out that cartridges such as .30-30 and .35 Rem can't really be trusted to cleanly take a deer. I've muddled around with Matuna's Optimum Game Weight formula a bit using Excel, and it looks good for awhile but the harder you work it the more cracks you find.

I'm trying to spec out my first serious boltgun, which will be my primary centerfire, so I'm looking for deerworthiness, affordability of ammo, and very mild recoil & blast. Obviously I could go with a .308 or .30-06, but that's more recoil than I want for a rifle which I intend to use for frequent target practice.

quote:

Originally posted by CouchTater:
?

I'm trying to spec out my first serious boltgun, which will be my primary centerfire, so I'm looking for deerworthiness, affordability of ammo, and very mild recoil & blast. Obviously I could go with a .308 or .30-06, but that's more recoil than I want for a rifle which I intend to use for frequent target practice.

The parameters are changing and are a little clearer. .257 Roberts or 6.5x55, That's easy. roger

The Bob looks great to me, but being a southpaw there are exceedingly few lefty rifles available in "Mauser length", and there seems to be a lot of debate over the suitability of the Roberts in a typical American short action. There does seem to be enough load data out there for COL of 2.8" or less, but there's also a lot of advice to not shoehorn it into a short action. If I had lots of money and patience, I guess I could order a Montana 1999 action as their "short" action can swallow 3.1" cartridges, but that's a bit overboard for what I need.

Problem with the 6.5x55 is the zombie cult-like behavior of its adherents. I don't want to end up like them, staggering around and mumbling "sectional density, sectional density, ..."

Of course in this exercise I'm spending money I don't currently have, but the Savage model 16 is at the top of the list, though people seem to be happy with Tikkas.

quote:

Originally posted by CouchTater:
Seafire, since you're a .260 guy, maybe you've tried this. A 140 grain bullet driven by about 35 grains of go powder to 2400-2500 fps gives only around 11 ft-lb of recoil in a 7.5 lb gun, according to my spreadsheet. Ballistics ain't too awful either. Have you messed around with this sort of load?

I'm thinking this would be a good "woods load" for me since I live in hardwood country, but there's not much published out there for the 260 that I know of and even less on this kind of downloaded thing.

CT,

I have used 140 grainers at 2400 fps, and they are indeed a good woods load... I know of a few old timers around here who actually use 140s in various 6.5mms, like the 6.5 x 55, for elk hunting, are either partitions or the old Rem Corelokt....within 200 to 250 yds, I have seen some decent elk, both Rocky Mountain and Roosevelt Elk downed with those loads...

So it should be just dandy for whitetail, even the big Northern ones in Canada and in the Upper Midwest ( MN, MI, Wisc)...

quote:

now Seafire I believe uses a 250 zero, and I am reconsidering getting my guns re-set for that,

Actually, to make a correction... for my big game hunting, my preference is to actually zero my rifle to be 3.5 inches high at 100 yds,

as stated above, with a 2250 to 2300 fps MV that will give me 250 yds as point blank range on a Deer or antelope...

When using faster velocity, I still zero 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, and then just calculate where my Point Blank Range will be with that velocity and that bullet...

With a 260, and a 100 grain bullet with an MV at 3350fps, that point blank zero is about 330 to 340 yds.....

my 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, is based on the explanation I gave on the size of a deer above...

I do hotrod some 6.5mm 100 grain loads, and some 6mm loads with bullet weights between 75 and 90 grains... because recoil is light...

Most other stuff, I do load MVs in the 2400 to 2600 fps range, as I like to use a ballistic tip, and they really penetrate and open up at these lower velocities, yet are flat shooting being very aerodynamic...

After the ballistic tip, my favorite two bullet designs are the Round Nose, or the Semi Pointed...( a Round Nose, with a spitzer wannabe attitude, eg: Speer 275 gr in 338, Speer 70 grain in 22 caliber, Sierra's 50, 55 and 63 grain SMPs...Nosler's 160 grain Partition, and their 30 caliber 220 gr Partition...)

I even zero a 300 Win Mag, with a 220 grain Partition, with a load of 83 grains of H 1000 ( 5 grains over book max...so be careful) and a large rifle primer, giving an MV of 2975 fps.. that is zeroed 3.5 inches high at 100 yds, it is still within point blank range out at 350 yds for deer, and is easily 450 yds on elk....

That heavy bullet also really packs a wallop when it hits!

Seafire, thanks for clarifying, I may very well move my POI up.....I am obviously FRIGHTENED for lack of better words to zero to high, and miss due to overshooting, as I am still trying to recover having missed the largest racked, big bodied buck of my life some 15 or so years ago.

Scenario: Ruger #1b, 270 150 ballisic tips about 2850 fps, set 1.5-2" high at 100 until a week or so before the above happened, and last minute while in the country shooting, I moved it up to say 3" or more high at 100, which puts me high as we know at 200.

Go hunting, HUGE buck caught strolling across field of grass covering most of his body where I could only get COMPLETELY clear shot at neck/head. Since he was moving at around 150-175 yds broadside, I feared missing the neck so held where I THOUGHT the body was, and I think I overestimated where his backline might be, as his chest area. Long story short, Bang miss, upset, loaded, rested again on side of tree, Bang miss #2, repeat, repeat, all told, about 4 or 5 shots off, the buck NEVER ran, and I NEVER touched him! Yes, MY fault, as IF I aimed for his neck EVERY shot, SURELY I would have gotten the lead (would not have been much at his walking pace) right, and dropped him, and it truly was a trophy of a lifetime, NEVER seen another than nice since. I really believe the spread was something like 25" or even better on this whitetail. I am no trophy hunter, but my adrenaline was really pumping on this deal, and it turned out like a nightmare, but I think I have about gotten over it, having learned alot!

That being said, it was NOT My guns POI's fault, it was mine.

NEVER again, will I try to GUESS where a part of an animal's body is, and shoot for it, when grass or any foliage/brush etc is hiding it, for many reasons.

That said, I will have to start experimenting at the range, so far I have done well where I hunt with a 200 zero, but I trust you have far greater experience, and having so much guesswork taking OUT of the equation to 400 yds is greatly desired!

Hey, that heavy 30 should do even further, should you need it, and want to try a shot further, but 450 is very ethical for that combo and your skill I am sure. I guess it hits like your 338-06 on steroids at a distance!

Seafire if you ever get down to the SOUTH, let me know and you are welcome to come hunting! Thanks for the info.

CouchTater wrote:

quote:

Problem with the 6.5x55 is the zombie cult-like behavior of its adherents. I don't want to end up like them, staggering around and mumbling "sectional density, sectional density,

Oops...I think I resemble that remark...

6BR, that brings up another question of mine. A number of writers recommend going to a 250 or even 275 yard zero to increase PBR. But that always makes the midrange POA/POI offset larger. If one had dots added to the factory duplex reticle on a scope, such that first dot was say 5 minutes down from the center and the second was 15 minutes down, you'd have a way to measure 5, 10, and 15 minutes.

Lets say the average deer chest depth was 14". Seems like it wouldn't take to long to check that the chest image subtended more than 5 minutes and less than 10 minutes, thus providing a crude estimate of about 200 yards. Work out the possibilities out to 300 or 250 and I would think you could go with a "flatter" zero and hae a quick way to do rough "come ups" without lasering all the time. If the dot estimate is over say 300, then you'd know it was time to either use the laser or pass on the shot.

I know folks have been meddling with the stadia type reticle for decades, and the more I think about it the more sense it makes to me within its crude limitations. Plus you could arrange the dots to be ballistically significant for your rifle and load, not just whatever the scope maker thinks is typical for a typical cartridge.

Anyway, something to think about. I figure some of the experienced hands here at AR have some kind of vaguely similar system. I'd sure like to see a thorough discussion of it.

quote:

Originally posted by 6.5BR:
..I think sometimes the hype of industry publications/writers etc. has a bigger is better and faster is better, yet a balance of a mild recoiling round, of a mild cartridge with say 250-3000 ballistics, does the same job today if not better with today's bullets, that it did decades ago, even though we have more 'magnum cartridges' on the scene. It takes no more ft. lbs of energy, etc. to kill an animal today than a century earlier. Shot placement, penetration and expansion of a decent bullet into/thru vitals is always a good hedge towards a solid kill, regardless of paper numbers. The numbers are relative, but not absolute.....

I could not agree more,
250sav/110AB, 6.5x54ms/130AB, 7x57/154IB get alot of respect from me.
I like 6.5x54ms130AB in a Sa/3"box, just cant find action with small .452" bolt face. Unless I order new WFH-N2@$2000, sorta dampens enthusiasm somewhat.Plus I dont want the bottom metal cause I want a blind box KevlarMntRifle, but WFH wont sell me action without bottom metal
....In any case a 6.5-130AB@2750 is all I would want.
In the meantime I must suffer a 7x57m70sa.

250Sav.....Go you Litl' Tiger!!!

Woodjack, the 6.5x47 Lapua would be perhaps ideal for what you want....something to ponder.

Now as to 'ranging' etc, I admit to not carrying a LRF but do have one scope with mil dots as reference points but sometimes to KISS I use a straight 6x scope duplex style reticle, most whether Leupold or Swarovski, even Nikon, seem to work fairly well by sighting them dead on at 200 and at 400 they are almost right on POI (good enough to bust 20 oz plastic bottles filled with water) by using the bottom of where the thin goes thick..if you can understand that.....

That said, when you know the distance between thick/thin and center, you can not only do drop (rough guestimates) but also crude ranging.

I think the key is practice and consistency which is essential to say how military snipers get so well at what they do, KISS applies

One gun, one scope-often fixed x, one load, now stay at the range, shooting at various distances shooting for 'hitting target in kill zone first shot' vs just shooting at a known set range for groups. Group shooting is nice, but perhaps other practice can better prepare for field situations. Familiarity gained by time spent, is invaluable.

Thanks for the comments. Gee, that 6.5x55 is a dandy, no doubt, so much that even low SD bullets in 6.5 work well in it or 260, ask Seafire! Heck I bet a 100gr at his loads speeds are not far off a 243 weatherby in same bullet weights, very versatile, practical also, I have plans to get another this summer, and will be anxious to shoot it and tell about it, something different.....the gun.

quote:

Seafire if you ever get down to the SOUTH, let me know and you are welcome to come hunting! Thanks for the info.

Thanks 6.5....

my brother lives in Atlanta... so I might get back that way sometime....

If you ever get the itch to hunt in Oregon, although our game populations are declining like a brick, due to cougars.... the door is always open... plenty of varmint opportunities..

Too bad when my brother went after them in AZ, he did not keep driving to OR!

Sounds like someone needs to get with the program, the cats are beautiful animals, but when the population gets out of hand, they must be heck on game herds! They are efficient killers I can imagine not only on deer. I would imagine they might take on your elk up their, at least younger ones.

I do think since I never had an opportunity to get a cougar, one might find a place for a full size mount lounging in my house, and I could feel good about helping the game population. I could see myself having a once in a lifetime cougar hunt. Are there no program by wildlife departments or government to try 'managing overpopulation' of those predators in your state?

It might 'behoove' officials to take notice now, and not wait till publicity hits like the lady bicyclist or jogger who had half her face removed by one!

Not that it can be avoided, but I can imagine without some controlled hunting pressure, Cougars in your area will continue to have negative impacts when there is a situation that is 'out of balance' in numbers of predator vs prey.

Due to the mountain lion's natural secrecy, I bet its a difficult task to maintain population and distribution surveys. And the default attitude of wildlife departments towards predators is that they're scarce and underpopulated by definition.

But if you factor in the reliable food sources of livestock and pet predation, the cat populations could be much higher than would be appropriate to the natural prey animals' populations. I kinda figure that's what is fueling the coyote boom. Pets and livestock become their "day job" while rabbit, deer, etc become their hobbies. Just like domestic dogs and cats. They rely on humans for regular feeding, but still go out and chase whatever for fun if they're allowed to.

Where I hunt, adjoing my buddy's farm land, is a refuge, most evenings, many mornings about a dozen if not more coyotes start howling, ready to hunt, in packs I am sure often, and I can tell you it is rare to see rabbits on his land. They along with other predators i.e. bobcats, and there was one fox no longer there I know......has dessimated small game and I believe those 'yotes' are impacting his deer herd.

Many places these larger predators don't get 'checked' left unhunted/trapped/poisoned or otherwise and it impacts wildlife overly, no doubt. Where are you specifically I am curious couchtater, area of US or state?

Currently soggy southeastern Virginia.

No bobcats or catamounts here, but we did have our first proven coyote last year. Made it all the way to Virginia Beach, into the "gentleman's farms" kind of area, and was wreaking havoc at a small turkey farm. Died of lead poisoning. The first of many, many more to come I believe, the suburban & rural habitat here seems extremely conducive towards coyotes. Tons of small farms, lots of "edge" between suburbia and new growth woods, plenty of riverine environment which will provide lots of fodder.

Wild hogs are going like wildfire here in LA, TX, AR, etc, but so are 'yotes.' They are VERY adaptable creatures, even in suburbia, found in the city limits of Dallas, Tx.

Perhaps you will have some new varmint hunting excursions to go on in your area in the future!

Oregon and Colorado are two states that have a similar problem...

just over half the population lives in a metro area, and they run the rest of the entire state...

Colorado has metro Denver and Oregon has Portland and Salem ( 45 miles apart) and then Eugene ( University of Oregon.. liberals)...

metro people are mainly anti hunting, pro PETA and don't know squat about either....

City People think Cougars are Cute and think it is Disney's the Lion King in real life.....

They have decimated Deer herds and are severely killing off Elk herds now... still the State Fish & Wildlife is ran by Portland People....Personally I think they are involved in a lot of corruption...but that is another story...

Fish & Wildlife Numbers are considered a joke by many, being lower than the real world... however, even by their estimation the 3 most Southwestern Counties in Oregon... Chetco, Josephine and Jackson Counties have cougar populations that number over a 1000 cougars in that area... Much of it is National Forest or BLM land....

Regardless of how many deer one thinks that a cougar kills in a week or month to eat... 1000 cougars kills a LOT of deer annually!

Bear population in the same area is considered to be at about 5,000... but they are not the threat to deer populations that Cougars are...

Cougars will kill, eat, and then leave the rest... Bears eat the entire thing and keep returning to the carcass until its gone...

Even tho F&W are opening up more cougar hunting opportunities... we still can't hunt with dogs as the city people think it is violent! and their numbers outvote the rest of us... and without dogs, the numbers of cougars taken are few...

Just north of here, in an area that is not considered crawling with them... to the north of a 10 mile stretch of rural highway, F& W reported 20 cougars taken in that area in one season!

Shoot shovel and scoot is a local philosophy on cougars in a lot of rural Oregon...

Another problem that we have in this state that I just recently found out about...

The State issues X number of tags each year for this game animal and that game animal.. and then number draws in different zones...

Well more and more game tags are paid for, especially in draw hunts... AND NEVER PICKED UP!

The Anti Hunting Crowd and PETA crowds are buying licenses and controlled tags.. to cut down on the number of actual hunters out in the field...

When I lived back east, the real hunter's dream was to come out west for the plentiful game...

Well in the last 12 years of so, all the game populations are booming back east and being decimated out west..... Cougars are the biggest reason why in Oregon, while the Liberal Crowds and F & W deny it constantly...

And now they are advocating letting wolves run loose all over the west also...while still considering them a protected animal.... I have seen two wolves in western Oregon in the last couple of seasons...one fighting crows on an elk gut pile.. and the other being chased by something, as it ran in front of my Toyota 4 Runner over by Crater Lake....I missed hitting it by about 10 feet...

Due to the population density I doubt wolves will do much out here, too much contact with man for their liking. But coyotes will have the proverbial field day. The main varmints around here, from what I see, are raccoon and possum. Well, them and biting insects.

As for politics, Virginia is mostly controlled by northern Virginia, which is pretty liberal. Sort of an ironic thing going on right now. I guess as part of the blue law history, Virginia doesn't allow hunting on Sunday. Fine for rural and small town folks who can take off a day or two during the week, but rotten for normal suburban working stiffs. Finally there's a push to allow Sunday hunting, and to oppose it there appears to be an uneasy coalition between the old school rural folks and the urban yuppies. Somewhere on the web I saw a quote from a delegate from yuppieville saying that we oughta respect our long standing traditions etc. Good thing I wasn't drinking tea at the moment.

Shame Seafire a balance cannot be struck, let a few high profile people have some "close encounters' with those mt. lions and realize it's not Disney Land out in the wild! Things might change in a hurry!

YES, 1000 cougars = many fold game kills to keep them fed. Just one a month = 12k, but likely many more than that.

Sad to hear that, now about that tea!