Another 223 deer failure

Gerard

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posted

OK. So you do not know or it was not a 223. It follows that your opinion is not of any consequence and can be ignored.

Posts: 2848 | Registered: 12 August 2002

Ignored post by Gerard posted

One of Us

posted

quote:
It follows that your opinion is not of any consequence and can be ignored.

I realized that awhile ago!

Posts: 7420 | Registered: 10 April 2009

Ignored post by theback40 posted

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by Gerard:
OK. So you do not know or it was not a 223. It follows that your opinion is not of any consequence and can be ignored.

I know whether it was a 223 or not. You are the one who doesn't know, and guess what - it doesn't matter. A botched head shot can happen regardless of the cartridge.

What? You feel you need an excuse, or justification to say that? Plenty have said it just because they want to. Now, you want me to enter your question trap, and help you with your presupposition?

I kinda noticed that there is an undercurrent here on AR of politely not listening to much that you have to say as well. Now we have something in common, whereas before, it was a stretch.

I find it kinda nice that certain species of you ignore me. I prefer to not engage in conversation with some of you anyway.

It's my opinion anyway, so it really doesn't matter whether you like it or not. I can cherish it anyway. Just as you find your asshole valuable, I find mine valuable too. It's a personal thing.

You remember the old saying that everyone has one. I'll add to that lofty comparison in saying there is a difference. Opinions can usually be expressed in public; assholes generally not. Just because it's the day after Christmas, do you feel special, spunky or something?

Mhary Punkin Istsmas to you too.

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Posts: 12818 | Registered: 16 February 2006

Ignored post by Kabluewy posted

Doc

one of us

posted

quote:
Originally posted by Rine Everett:
Actually my first, but knew some would love to through around "another". Deer was 80 yards away feeding towards me. I was going to take the neck shot but said, no, I can make that shot and went for the top of the head. At the shot, the deer went down. I packed up my gear and went over to the deer. I grabbed the deer's left antler to drag it out of the mud so I could tag and clean it. [Rule 17, always cut the neck to allow bleeding was broken]after 5 or 10 steps, the deer stands up. I turn to look and he runs off with me still holding on to his antler. I end up on my back looking up at the sky and he runs off. As near as I can tell, he had his head turned a bit to his right and I hit about 1/2 inch to the left (his right) of where I was aiming. The bullet went under the antler and skirted the skull. This was Friday night. Deer was seen Saturday feeding in his normal area. And again Sunday when a cousin shot him in the neck and reported that he was missing the right antler and the wound was healing nicely. I was using the 60 grain partition.

Lesson learned: make double sure of the shot, if in doubt, go for the neck, and bleed the deer. I do not think a bigger caliber would have made a diffrence in this case. A flat nosed bullt, maybe. Better shot placement would have done the trick as well.

for the junior game wardens:
Texas rules state that you are to immediatly tag the deer upon kill. He wasn't dead so I was not in violation.

I won't defame anyone for taking a head shot. I've done it a few times when the animal was very close and it worked out well in all instances and I would do it again.

But to say that you don't think a different caliber would have made a difference, well, I strongly and respectively disagree. I don't believe that deer would have survived the same shot from a 30.06 with a 180 grain bullet as an example.

I'm not much of a 6mm fan on game to begin with let alone something smaller even though I know hunters who use them with great success. As an example, the 22-6mm Remington- the preferred caliber to a hunter I know.

Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns

Posts: 7906 | Registered: 05 July 2004

Ignored post by Doc posted

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posted

I think it's very true that the marginal effectivness of the 223 shows up even with head or neck shots. I'm certain that doe my hunting buddy shot in Texas wouldn't have been able to get up, if hit like that with a 308.

My point in a previous post was that botched head or neck shots can happen with any caliber of cartridge. The difference in the use of the 308 for example, compared to the 223, is as always - margin of error.

KB

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Posts: 12818 | Registered: 16 February 2006

Ignored post by Kabluewy posted

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posted

quote:
I don't believe that deer would have survived the same shot from a 30.06 with a 180 grain bullet as an example.

Knocked out for a longer time, maybe. But if the skull wasnt damaged,hence brain damage, how would the results be differant Doc? This, comparing the same shot as you said above.

Posts: 7420 | Registered: 10 April 2009

Ignored post by theback40 posted

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posted

What I have found with the head shots I've made, is rather explosive effect. Even with a little off center shot, if bone is hit at all, the bone fragments have as much, or perhaps more, effect in killing the deer as the bullet itself. With a perfect shot, with the rifles I use, practically the whole head explodes, like a bomb was inside it.

KB

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Posts: 12818 | Registered: 16 February 2006

Ignored post by Kabluewy posted

Alberta Canuck

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by nopride2:
Elmer Kieth is rolling in his grave....

Dave

...At about the same speed as a minigun giving fire support from Puff to an encircled LRP awaiting extraction in The 'Nam.

A short quiz:

Q1. What part of a prey animal is almost always moving? ('Cause it's always trying to spot anything that may be stalking it as a potential meal.)

Q2. If you are carrying even a lowly .30-30 instead of a .223, and a deer is grazing toward you inside 100 yards, where are you going to shoot it? In the head? In the "sticking point"?

Q3. Which is most likely to destroy the key works in the boiler room with a sticking point shot? The .223? Or, the .30-30?

Q4. Which is handier to carry? The AR? The .30-30?

Last two Qs in this short quiz...So which is actually the better deer cartridge for most folks where that kind of shot may be on the menu?

And which wastes the least meat? A deer accidently hit somewhat into the brisket/shoulder with a .30-30 but still dead at the scene because a lung was also blown apart? Or a botched head shot with a .223 where the deer runs away and isn't found?

And personally, I tend to use rifles even more certain than the old reliable .30-30.

Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001

Ignored post by Alberta Canuck posted

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posted

I'm sitting here with a 4 pt horns and skull cap from a 2 1/2 yr old buck I shot this year. FD 153# so pretty mediocre deer all way round.
The distance from the under the burl/base, to the top of the skull is .710-.740 or, just under 3/4 of an inch. Skull thickness at the thinnest point between the horns from outside of the skull to the deepest divit in the brain pan is .3, getting thicker towards the horn "stem". There's alot of room under that antler to the horn stem to break a horn loose without touching the skull itself. I dont see where a larger caliber with the same impact point can change the outcome much, if at all.
Shit happens no matter what you use, keep your rifle ready until it's on the hanging pole!

Posts: 7420 | Registered: 10 April 2009

Ignored post by theback40 posted

Quintus

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posted

I don't hunt with the 223, but the brother-in-law uses the 53 grain TSXs I load for him and his AR and he has now killed 7 adult deer in Minnesota with 7 shots (all boiler room shots) from 50 to 140 yards. All were normal 0 to 60 yard tracking jobs and all were complete pass throughs. Ribs and shoulder blades have been hit in several instances and hang weights have been 115 to 175 lbs. The fact is since he quit shooting his 30-06 his shooting has improved dramatically. we spent many a day following his wounded deer across the county when he used that old 06, now the rest of us get to hunt too. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Posts: 849 | Location: MN | Registered: 11 March 2009

Ignored post by Quintus posted

SR4759

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posted

quote:
The fact is since he quit shooting his 30-06 his shooting has improved dramatically.

Reminds me of a guy that never fired a round except at an animal. He never learned to shoot because he hated recoil. These guys should shoot at something besides a live animal for practice and should reload if they cannot afford the ammo. Otherwise they should stay home.

Posts: 13978 | Location: http://www.tarawaontheweb.org/tarawa2.jpg | Registered: 03 December 2008

Ignored post by SR4759 posted

scottfromdallas

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posted

30-06 to 223 is a quantum leap. Seems like there is a lot of middle ground that was passed over.

Posts: 1941 | Location: Texas | Registered: 19 July 2009

Ignored post by scottfromdallas posted

Doc

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posted

quote:
Originally posted by theback40:
Knocked out for a longer time, maybe. But if the skull wasnt damaged,hence brain damage, how would the results be differant Doc? This, comparing the same shot as you said above.

Good question, but my point was that I don't believe a bigger caliber and heavier bullet would have "skirted" the bone. Point being, a bigger bullet would have introduced so much shock/energy that I believe the skull would have fractured substantially. So, the shot situation would remain the same, but I think the outcome would have been different by a substantial margin.

I'll add that, IMO, the OP took a shot too far for a head shot. Secondly, he described the bullet as skirting the skull. That tells me that at the moment the bullet hit, the deer's head angle was not as perpendicular to bullet path as it should have been. A bigger diameter bullet is better medicine for deer no matter what the shot IMO.

Additionally, I think the longest distance head shot I've ever taken was 18-20 yards. The rifle has a 1 pound trigger and I had a solid rest. Bullet entered the crown of the Doe's head and exited low b/w the eyes.

The other head shots were from tree stands with deer roughly 7-11 yards, heads down feeding. Bullets entered top of skull and exited out the neck/jaw junction or high neck. All DRT. With those close-up circumstances and a light trigger, those situations worked well for me. I'd do them all again and will take similar shots in the future w/o hesitation.

Put the bullet in the red dot. Game over:

Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns

Posts: 7906 | Registered: 05 July 2004

Ignored post by Doc posted

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posted

I agree with you Doc for the most part,on your whole post. after studying this horn/skullcap sitting in front of me I'd like to ask the OP if all he has is a horn that looks like a shed, or if it has a chunk of solid bone attatched to the bottom. Because there is such a distance between the horn base and the actual top of the skull I still think you would end up with the same results unless he has a chunk of bone attatched.

Posts: 7420 | Registered: 10 April 2009

Ignored post by theback40 posted

Gerard

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posted

Kabluewy,

quote:
A botched head shot can happen regardless of the cartridge.

Which is why I said that there are rules. (1. Do not take head or neck shots.)

True to type, when logic runs out, you turn to insult and potty humour. That is ok, so you typecast yourself and I know how to act.

Posts: 2848 | Registered: 12 August 2002

Ignored post by Gerard posted

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posted

It certainly appeared to me that you threw an insult, and I asked myself why should I let that go? I mostly do, but in that case I chose to respond. Same here, I'm merely responding to insults thrown. Seems to me like you ought to look in the mirror.

BTW, I thought you were ignoring me?

So, my post wasn't for you, but the viewing entertainment of others.

KB

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Posts: 12818 | Registered: 16 February 2006

Ignored post by Kabluewy posted