Actually my first, but knew some would love to through around "another". Deer was 80 yards away feeding towards me. I was going to take the neck shot but said, no, I can make that shot and went for the top of the head. At the shot, the deer went down. I packed up my gear and went over to the deer. I grabbed the deer's left antler to drag it out of the mud so I could tag and clean it. [Rule 17, always cut the neck to allow bleeding was broken]after 5 or 10 steps, the deer stands up. I turn to look and he runs off with me still holding on to his antler. I end up on my back looking up at the sky and he runs off. As near as I can tell, he had his head turned a bit to his right and I hit about 1/2 inch to the left (his right) of where I was aiming. The bullet went under the antler and skirted the skull. This was Friday night. Deer was seen Saturday feeding in his normal area. And again Sunday when a cousin shot him in the neck and reported that he was missing the right antler and the wound was healing nicely. I was using the 60 grain partition.

Lesson learned: make double sure of the shot, if in doubt, go for the neck, and bleed the deer. I do not think a bigger caliber would have made a diffrence in this case. A flat nosed bullt, maybe. Better shot placement would have done the trick as well.

for the junior game wardens:
Texas rules state that you are to immediatly tag the deer upon kill. He wasn't dead so I was not in violation.

quote:

Lesson learned:

quote:

Another 223 deer failure

Rine?? my son shot a buck the same way with a 1 1/4 oz. slug and it got up and ran away,
new kind of bullet falure?

Dont shoot at the head whatever caliber.

"Another 223 deer failure". Well what did you expect, nimrod? Just what were you thinking - perhaps that you were hunting with a real deer rifle? Did the magic word "partition" impart false hope, and did your faith fail at the last minute, so you took a head shot, just in case? That little voice of doubt in the back of your head spoke louder than your faith in the "partition"?

quote:

Originally posted by Rine Everett:
I do not think a bigger caliber would have made a diffrence in this case.

Spoken like a true aficionado.

The difference is knowing you are toting an adequate rifle, to quiten the little voice of doubt, thus choosing different shot placment rather than head shot.

KB

IMO, the lesson that should have been learned is:
-irrespective of the caliber used, a head shot on an animal that isn't holding still (they almost never are holding totally still) and is a fair distance away is a risky proposition.

I'd put neck shots in the same category. If you miss by an inch or two, you've given the animal a nasty wound that it may or may not recover from.

If you're worried about wasting meat, shoot behind the shoulder and use a heavy, controlled-expansion bullet at moderate velocity. You won't waste any meat at all unless you like to eat the ribs.

The old guy that ran a deer camp I was in years ago use to head shoot does with a .30-06. He said they were much easier to clean when killed this way. One day he came back to camp muddy from head to toe and covered in blood. We thought he had a bad accident in the woods and everybody asked over and over "are you ok?"

When he finally settled down he told us the story. A very aggressive doe was chasing every deer that came in the food plot out. After it ran a small 8 point off he got mad and decided this deer needed to go. He took aim and was going for a head shot but it didn't go right. He blew most of the deer's snout off. The deer fell over and he decided all's well that ends well and went to retrieve his kill. When he got to it he said the deer got to it's feet and started honking, blowing blood and throwing hoof's. He said he fell down and dropped his rifle and had to crawl to get away from it.

After he finished his story we were all rolling on the cabin floor laughing. He was embarrassed and mad about the whole ordeal. We all went back to the scene of the crime and helped load up the now dead deer up to clean it. Blood was everywhere. Later he told me his head shot day's were over with.

Terry

My main Texas hunting buddy joined me one evening on the stand overlooking a large field. The stand was really like a tree house, with a porch. I was hunting hogs, but about 20 minutes before last light a large doe walked out on the othere side of the field, about 325 yds. As she walked down the far side she came within about 200 yds. My buddy had a new gift from his son, an AR in 223, which he was proud of for its precise accuracy. He took a steady aim, off the padded rail, and dropped the deer, with a neck shot.

I watched that deer flop around a while, and suggested he shoot it again. He rather indignantly said that deer was dead. After last shooting light, we took the buggy to pick up the deer, which was gone. He tried to track it by following the sound of it crashing into the bushes, but it got dark, and he gave up.

Since then, I noticed he has gone back to using his 308, or the 270 that I gave him. And he doesn't feel the need for long range neck shots anymore.

KB

TC1, i don't know why you need to defend poor shooting or poor shoot selection. But you are the only reason i own a "black rifle". It's a very interesting gun, I'm not using it on deer though. As you know, i can't and wouldn't in Colorado.

I thought the definition of "black rifle" was broader than the 223 exclusively. I thought it could be any cartridge in the AR platform. I also thought that one of the desirable features of the AR is the ability to swap uppers quickly, to shoot a cartridge more suited for deer hunting, and in those states it's required, a five shot magazine is available.

KB

Oh, I'm not defending anything. John Barsness recently came out with a new killing power formula, it goes like this:

"My more recent killing power formula is the 90/9/1: 90% is bullet placement, 9% is bullet performance, and 1% is headstamp."


This pretty much sums it up for the sane among us.

Terry

Poor shot placement strikes again.

Funny how that seems to be a major sticking point most of the time.

TC, exactly.
I can use many different bullets and head stamps successfully with correct shot placement.

Maybe it should be 98:1:1 as most bullet/headstamp combinations will work with proper shot placement and I can't think of too many combination's that will succeed with poor shot placement.

I've had a couple of "failures" in my career. One was with a crossbow and another with a 44 Magnum. In both case I had to go, lay hands on the deer and finish killing it with a knife. Obviously projectile placement wasn't ideal in either case.

The moral of the story; always carry a good knife.

LOL, it's interesting how you all post in packs like 12 year old boys.

So, it seems that we are all in agreement again. Shot placment. Ironic isn't it? That many of the advocates of 223 on deer seem to feel the need to head or neck shoot. For what? To make up for some inadequacy, perhaps? And still, you harp shot placment, when a mere inch could make all the difference in DRT or runn oft.

KB

Just don't understand people taking head shots. The OP should have waited for a decent broadside shot and drove that partition through the vitals. I have much more faith in a 60 grain partition doing it's job through the vitals then trying to hit a moving head on a deer. You can't blame this one on the 223 other than you didn't have the confidence in the round to make an appropriate shot.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
LOL, it's interesting how you all post in packs like 12 year old boys.

I find your comment interesting. If a few people agree about something we become a pack? Who's being a child here?

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Just don't understand people taking head shots.

It's somewhat controversial. I have often done head and neck shots, but it wasn't to make up for a feeling that I was using a cartridge lacking for other shot placement. (except when I was using a 7.62x39) So far, I haven't had a bad experience with it. The reason I got started at it was because at the time I was hunting with several native guys who would make derogatory comments if I messed up a shoulder.

They always did head or neck shots, but mostly from very close range. I will still take an opportunity, but the closer the better, like 40 yds or less.

The reason is meat hunting, and there is less mess when cleaning, and little waste. Also, in bear country, it's a real concern re tracking down a runner. It's far more comforting to just quickly go to the last spot the deer was seen, find it DRT, and get outta there quickly.


KB

You spend a lot more time on the Internet than I do. I spent a little more time at the range or in the field. Have fun being the experts. see you later.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
You spend a lot more time on the Internet than I do. I spent a little more time at the range or in the field.

Good for you. That's for sure the way it ought to be. Otherwise, one may find himself in intractable discussions too often, as a form of amusment.

KB

May I say,,,,,,, Merry Christmas to all. There is no one I dislike on this forum.

I've said it before and I live it. Heart/lungs---heart/lungs!

I tend to view myself more of an independent than a pack kind of guy.

Just funny how so many people seem to have issues with (insert cartridge/bullet) and bad shot placement. And other people can use (insert cartridge/bullet) that seem to work just fine with proper shot placement.

quote:

You spend a lot more time on the Internet than I do. I spent a little more time at the range or in the field. Have fun being the experts. see you later.

That's funny also, because in the field is where I have come to most of my conclusions. A rifle range doesn't tell one much about the performance of (insert bullet/cartridge) in the field. But it sure as heck helps the hunter but the bullet in the right spot with proper practice.

I have on occasion taken neck shots, usually avoid the head for some reason. Straight on shots with whitetails give you a very good white patch to aim for. I also like processing the cleaner carcass of a neck shot critter. Filled a doe tag about a month ago with a neck shot. Boom, flop, dead deer. Of course I am in the habit of always chambering another round and being ready just in case. Seldom need one, but on big bucks/bulls or any question about shot placement will get a second one. The only thing better than proper shot placement is two shots properly placed.

And BTW, pot calling kettle black on the whole pack thing. As you seem to jump whenever one of these threads come up.

I suppose a springbok and a blesbok could be compared to a deer. There are a few rules when it comes to this type of animal and a 223.

1. Do not take head or neck shots.
2. Do not shoot further than 300 metres.
3. Use a light bullet going at least 3700fps.
4. Do not use a bullet that turns to dust on impact. (Read jacketed lead core)

Shoot behind the shoulder, try to miss the major bones and use a bullet that penetrates straight and gives an exit hole. Meat loss is nothing to talk about and animals do not run a way.

Gerard,
What's the minimum velocity that you are talking about, at impact?

3700fps is pretty fast at muzzel, and exceptionally fast at 300 meters.

I tend to agree with the monometal, HV, and DRT, based simply on the few examples I've seen with the TSX at short range at over 3100 fps. Nasty exit. Way different results compared to slow and heavy. Based on what I observed, meat damage would be an issue with a shoulder hit, for example, but of course minimized through the ribs. I think it's the HV, and exit, that's the main factors, regardless of whether the bullet is light or heavy for caliber, just so it holds together enough and is heavy enough to exit.

I also think this theory applies more to deer size game than the bigger stuff. I dunno. It takes a tough bullet to do what you are talking about, regardless of caliber. On the bigger cartridges, I imagine the 378 Weatherby, for example. I for one, ain't going there. Too much recoil, and the std 375H&H works at standard vel.

However, the 22 centerfire cartridges need all the help they can get, and even the fast ones don't kick much.

KB

Kabluewy,

3700fps Is the muzzle speed. We have tested up to 3860 at the muzzle and were still 40kpa under the CIP maximum but could not get more powder into the case. Given the terrible BC of the light .224" bullets a 300m limit would put the impact speed at around 1900fps with an extremely high stability factor.

A tough bullet, that is reliable in the way it works terminally, is the only way to go.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/galbenhardusbles.html

http://gsgroup.co.za/attie.html

kaBluewy would call a miss a bullet failure if it was a 223...

I think the failure lies with operator malfunction on this one!

I've never taken a head shot and likely never will and have hunted with a 22-250 for several years, but now reach for my 7mm-08 when hitting the deer woods.

The failure was not a 223, the failure was someone trying to take a freaking head shot

I had a neckshot that I was a little off on a buck onetime. he went straight down but was still alive. I had my knife out to cut his throat,grabbed him by the horns and he kicked me 2-3 times before I knew it had happened! I hated to shoot again and was afraid I'd stick myself with the knife if he kicked me in the hand. I ended up twisting his head and breaking his neck but it's not something I would want to do on a regular basis!!
Oh, not a .223 but a 6.5/243 imp.

quote:

The failure was not a 223, the failure was someone trying to take a freaking head shot

I agree!!!

rudyc

Another case of blaming the gun for poor shooting. The head shot is poor shot to take on any animal as it is very easy to miss the brain as you did and even easier to break the jaw and leave an animal to bleed or worse yet to starve to death.

The neck shot isn't much better as you can miss the spinal cord and/or the neck bone itself and just blow a hole through meat, windpipe or gullet and again the animal suffers...

With a light caliber it is best to take the double lung shot and that gives you a lot of room for error or for your poor bullet placement.

You should have been able to flank the deer down. As a kid we were hired by the Black Gap Game Dept in Texas to flank the trapped deer down so that they could take blood for testing. On the big bucks its hard and can be risky and it best for a two on one with them, but the forkies and does were easy enough after you got the hang of it...I did have to wrestle down a big buck my wife wounded some years ago and I got pretty beat up and he tore my shirt off, but I got his throat cut. I learned a lesson on that one, shoot'em again if they are alive.

Failure is 99.9% of the time the last nut behind the recoil pad..

I'll take a head or neck shot from time to time and its worked so far, but I think do as I say, not do as I do is appropriate here..

I think the guy from Colorado came across poorly I think we all know that if you miss you shoot poorly whatever the reason, that does not make us a pack..Maybe he should spend more time on the internet..I do because it may benifit someone if they take my advise which is usually right IMO! but I would bet dollars to donuts I can shoot circles around Mr. Colorado..

quote:

shoot'em again if they are alive.

Ray,
That is good advice on so many levels it's scary.

Rule #1 for you dummies that don't immediately chamber another round and keep the scope on the animal for a reasonable length of time: Approach the animal from the rear with your rifle pointed at it. Before you go clutching and grabbing at the animal, touch it in the eye with the muzzle of your rifle. If it is still alive, it will blink. Then,IMO, the smart thing to do is back off a bit and shoot it again. This is when a neck or head shot works well.

A few years ago, a friend in SE Alaska, who was also the mayor of the small town where I lived and worked, got himself in a life or death struggle with a Sitka deer buck.

The short story, as he told it to me, was that he made a head shot, and the buck was down. My friend went over, grabbed one horn to drag the deer over to where he could get at it to cut its throat. After dragging it a few feet, the buck came to life, and was rather hyperactive. My buddy was afraid to let go of the antler, because the buck was trying to gore him. It was push and shove, and the buck got him down and was also wearing him down. Fortunately, he wasn't alone and the other guy rushed over to help, and they both subdued the buck, and cut its throat. It was too active to risk another close range shot, and no time to think - just act. My buddy was all scratched up and stuck a little, and his clothes were torn.

KB

quote:

he made a head shot

What caliber?

there is nothing wrong with a head shot...

the only thing wrong with any shot, is the shooters assumption his game is dead...

an animal laying down that has been head shot.. is laying still, so it ought to be easy to hit it again...

I'm not proud... I learned this the same way any other hunter learns it best.. by having one get up and run away...

one of the boys I take out hunting, had a deer wounded... and it was laying down panting...
the boy was waiting near it, not knowing what to do...

even tho I only had a 204, when I walked up, I immediately shot it in the head, before it had a chance to move...from about 40 yds..

then when I got up to it, I put the barrel right against its ear and shot it again...

the kid had gut shot it..unbeknownst to me..

but when I first saw it, it still had its head up...when I was next to it, I saw it was still breathing..

I know it could have gotten up and bolted out of there in 2 seconds..

Elmer Kieth is rolling in his grave.

Dave