What makes it better than a .260 Remington in a bolt gun for hunting or target?

George

There's a feature article in this month's American Rifleman- part of the advantage is the sharp shoulder, which should make for more efficient propellant burn. Also noted is a slightly longer neck than the 260, which, presumably, should give better bullet-to-throat alignment.
They also note that there is more retained energy at 800 yds that he.308 win.

The most serious advantages are in factory ammo quality and mindshare. Remember, only a small percentage of shooters reload, so they'll gravitate to cartridges with inexpensive high quality factory ammo.

Don't underestimate the mindshare thing either. Hot products create their own ecosystems which in turn foster the adoption of those products, creating a cycle of success.

Thanks for the input.

I'm familiar with "mindshare" (aka 'fanboi syndrome') and have managed to resist it (mostly). Notable examples are "Glock Perfection", the .404 Jeffery craze, the .458 Lott craze, "Blaser disease", et al.

Except for availability of factory ammunition, the other pluses provide theoretical benefits. I'd never shoot a non-magnum out to 800yds. (well, maybe a .25-06).

A rifle I find interesting has appeared and I was curious about the round.

George

Go ahead George and order the new left hand Ruger Predator in 6.5 Creedmoor.
Be like the rest of us lefty rifle loonies who buy one just because

You're an enabler of the first magnitude.

My safe is overflowing as it is!

George

Was just given a new Eliseo Tube Gun chassis which I really don't know what to do with. I chambered up a Palma taper Shilen at 27" in the 6.5 Creedmoor. Have a Jewell trigger on a squared receiver and a one piece PT&G bolt with a M 16 extractor and a .062 firing pin. I want to Melonite the barrel and that will be the hold up.
Probably be the first of November before I will shoot it. I do have Norma and Lapua brass. I have some factory Prime rounds that are supposed to be Norma and the box says made by RUAG-AMMOTEC in Sweden. They are 130 grain and supposed to be at 2850fps.

The primary design motivation for the Creed is to avoid COAL constraints with High B.C. (read long) bullets in short action magazines. The .260 Rem doesn't run some of the current long range bullets well because of this; it can't fit in short action magazines without certain bullets being so deep into the case that the bullet ogive is below the case mouth. The Creed avoids this and gives just about the same case capacity as the .260. Second it is specced with the right twist to handle these bullets.

If you don't care to shoot bullets like the new 147 gr. ELD-M or similar then It does't matter one bit which you choose.

My cheap little savage model 11 260 Remington rifles I have two shoot awesome.I use 308 brass which is easy to find and cheap once fired which you can't say for the 6.5 cred.It's a gun writer trick.like the short mags to get you to buy something you don't need .My cheap 260 shoots under an inch at 200 yards and sometimes 300 yards with lapua bullets .It's awesome easy to make but hornady who's brass sucks wants to make alot of Monet so they make cartridges you can't make from anything else .The 6'5 creed comes from the 30 tc cartridge .If you remember the last oboma ammo shortage no brass or ammo .You can always get 308 or 243 brass but no tc30 .Gun writers trick you into buying something you don't need Remember the ultra mags still no brass hardly for them .I.like the 260 Remington awesome cartridge easy to make accurate .

No tricks just a well designed case using the same techniques P.O. Ackley made popular in a more compact case with a little longer neck to hold 140+gr. bullets. It is better for a short action and enjoys great factory support.

Remington did not design the .260 it just necked down the .308 and offered it as a hunting round. Lots of people were doing that with success before Remington decided to offer it. It is a shame that they didn't give anyone credit for the work they took advantage of.

Your .260 Rem. is a fine cartridge and you should keep it if it works for you.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by dgr416:
My cheap little savage model 11 260 Remington rifles I have two shoot awesome.I use 308 brass which is easy to find and cheap once fired which you can't say for the 6.5 cred.It's a gun writer trick.like the short mags to get you to buy something you don't need .My cheap 260 shoots under an inch at 200 yards and sometimes 300 yards with lapua bullets .It's awesome easy to make but hornady who's brass sucks wants to make alot of Monet so they make cartridges you can't make from anything else .The 6'5 creed comes from the 30 tc cartridge .If you remember the last oboma ammo shortage no brass or ammo .You can always get 308 or 243 brass but no tc30 .Gun writers trick you into buying something you don't need Remember the ultra mags still no brass hardly for them .I.like the 260 Remington awesome cartridge easy to make accurate .

Brass or ammo for the 6.5 Creedmoor is now a non issue. I have seen ammo for sale in our local Wal Marts. Besides, any shooter or hand loader worth their salt knows to buy a good supply of ammo or brass for each new caliber they pick up. In addition, pretty much all of the big online retailers have it in stock.

After looking on Gunbrokers I see new Savage model 11's selling for $500 and up. The new left hand Ruger Predator in 6.5 can be picked up for as low as $410 shipped.

Not everything new needs to be discarded. I own rifles in 7mm/08 and 260. The main reason I purchased a 6.5 was because Ruger is offering it in left hand for a great price in a rifle with a good track record.

quote:

Originally posted by analog_peninsula:
The most serious advantages are in factory ammo quality and mindshare. Remember, only a small percentage of shooters reload, so they'll gravitate to cartridges with inexpensive high quality factory ammo.

Don't underestimate the mindshare thing either. Hot products create their own ecosystems which in turn foster the adoption of those products, creating a cycle of success.

That is very perceptive. The target shooting market moved from 30 caliber a long time ago, while the 308 round is still a very accurate round, it kicks. Trends that I have seen, when the AR15 took over NRA Across the course in the mid nineties, not only as service rifle but as a match rifle, the 308 Win round rapidly disappeared from the firing line. Tom Whittaker was the last to use a 308 Win, in 1996, to win the Camp Perry XTC Nationals. Since that period a lot of experimentation went on with rounds that would feed through a AR15 but were ballistically better. There were 6mm rounds, there were 6.5 mm rounds. Match rifle shooters, that is bolt gunners, experimented with rounds longer than the 223, but not by much.

But, across the course has faded and of the shooting sports out there, F Class is growing. There you shoot single shot, prone, with a scope. Cartridge length is not important as you are not working the bolt firing rapid fire. Early in F class, there were guys trying the biggest, baddest rounds, belted magnums and the such. They made a lot of noise, were objectionable to be around, and had a lot of recoil. I think the recoil is what did them in. It is very hard to shoot accurately when you are flinching. Something else, while the 243 cartridge (6mm) is very accurate, high ballistic, you will shoot the barrel out somewhere at 800 rounds. Long range shooters are pushing the things as fast as they can go, so your rifle will spend more time at the gunsmith than on the range, with high pressure 6mm rounds. The 6.5 mm rounds, guys were telling me around 1400 rounds, but, they were shooting some lower pressure mid range loads. Typically a 308 barrel is replace around 3000 rounds, might go a little longer.

The popularity of accurate target cartridges less than 308 caliber has more or less paralleled the increase in number of F Class shooters. These guys want to shoot at 1000 yards, or further, don’t want a lot of recoil, want flat shooting and high ballistic bullets. There still is experimentation around the 6mm and 7mm bullets but is seems there is a convergence at 6.5 mm, and it is all due to a combination of accuracy, great bullets, barrel life, and recoil.

I think the 6.5 Creedmore just happened to be the right cartridge at the right time. It is a fine cartridge, was developed for paper punching, not hunting. It caught the “mindshare” at just the right moment. It does not hurt it one bit that it is a factory round, you can buy ammunition fully loaded. No weird wildcatting or case forming from a parent cartridge, nope, it is all there ready to go.

I guess if you can't take the recoil of the 6.5x284
then the 6.5 creedmoore is an option.

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
I guess if you can't take the recoil of the 6.5x284
then the 6.5 creedmoore is an option.

I don't believe that the recoil is the reason to change. Barrel life, great brass,inherent accuracy, and yes recoil.
Some people cannot afford 3 or 4 barrels a year if you compete much.

Butch what I DO like about the 6.5 creed is that I can cut the chamber MUCH quicker than a 6.5x284
which means a greater profit for me. As they say "time is money".

Yup,
It is a little quicker.

I bought a ruger number 1 in it.

I did not buy a blaser in it.

I think it is fun gun for the range. I would hunt with .308 as I like heavier bullets.

Match ammo in both 6.5 and 308 is around $26-30 a box.

Like the 300 blackout I think this will be around.

Mike

I will toss in this idea: I think the Creed is probably the ideal new hunter caliber. It's a step up from the .243 in performance without there being much of a recoil hit. That, plus inexpensive, high quality hunting ammo makes a very attractive combination.

george you are forgetting the 11th commandment -
i want one, therefore i need one

Butch,

It's more the novelty of a left-hand action with threaded barrel.

I have several LH rifles between .243 and .30-06 that I'd use more often than a 6.5 Creedmoor, but their barrels aren't threaded (except for a Ruger Scout .308).

Las Vegas has no gunsmiths trustworthy enough to thread my barrels.

George

JMHO! The 6.5 Creed popularity is predicated in good marketing and the need for more toys! roger

Like every new/re-discovered cartridge, they don't do anything not already covered by other rounds.

George

I have a nephew that will be 13 next year, and he's a lefty. I'm eyeing that American Predator LH in 6.5mm Creedmor pretty hard as a gift for him.

The Ruger American Predator would be a good choice in 6.5CM. It is offered left hand and is a lot of gun for the money. Though not interchangeable with the Savage it's barrel is the same principle. They are smooth and have a 70* bolt throw. They come with a lot of options that more expensive guns do at a modest price.

The Creedmoor enjoys the concept of being a factory chambering that is designed along the lines of a shortened 260AI. It has close to the same case capacity. It lays between the 6.5x47 Lapua and .260AI. If you do not want the challenges that come with a custom chambering then it is worth a close look. Longer barrel life and milder recoil are an added plus.

All the 6.5 cartridges have gained popularity because of their good natured forgiving virtues for both hunting and target shooting.

Joe

Recoil is a non-issue for me. I shoot far bigger cartridges than the little 6.5.

George

Don't forget that Lapua came out with the 6.5 x 47 first, and target shooters being cheap bastards, did not want to lay money out for expensive Lapua brass. Thus, the advent of the Creedmoor and along with it less expensive brass.

Alan

quote:

Originally posted by Alan W:
Don't forget that Lapua came out with the 6.5 x 47 first, and target shooters being cheap bastards, did not want to lay money out for expensive Lapua brass. Thus, the advent of the Creedmoor and along with it less expensive brass.

Alan

Hornady deserves a great deal of thanks. They lead the way for 'affordable'.

Their bullets are often half the price of similar offerings of their competition.

They find niche markets and jump in feet first with lower prices. Look at their DR ammo prices c/w Federal, who was the only game in town for years.

6.5 Creedmoor is just another feather in their cap.

Well,
You can keep your Hornady brass. I have shot some Prime brass and I like it. My Prime was once fired factory ammo that I wanted while waiting for my Lapua. Just got 100 rounds of Lapua. I have a couple 6.5X47L and they shoot great.

Barrel life in the 6.5x284 is not bad. It is horrible.

The 6.5 Creedmoor is so yesterday, the cool people are moving to the 6 mm Creedmoor. I expect them the reintroduce the 30 TC as the 7.62 Creedmoor and it will suddenly be a winner.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
The 6.5 Creedmoor is so yesterday, the cool people are moving to the 6 mm Creedmoor. I expect them the reintroduce the 30 TC as the 7.62 Creedmoor and it will suddenly be a winner.

Scotty, I guess I ain't KOOL!

George,
If you do buy the rifle try some of the Horndy whitetail ammo with the 129 gr interlock bullets. I read several posts of superb accuracy with this ammo and the Predator.
You can usually find it for about $20 a box. I plan on picking up about 5 boxes and giving it a try. Then will reload the brass.

Just another toy for men instead of boys. Its new and it will sell like hotcakes for awhile then back off because they will come out with another miracle of the gun world..I'll just keep my 6x45 and my 250 Savages..but then I've been thru this sceanario for 70 plus years or more..!! most of them died on the vine!

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Just another toy for men instead of boys. Its new and it will sell like hotcakes for awhile then back off because they will come out with another miracle of the gun world..I'll just keep my 6x45 and my 250 Savages..but then I've been thru this sceanario for 70 plus years or more..!! most of them died on the vine!

And some of us are also over 50, 60, etc and enjoy messing with new things. Don't know about you but I would be bored to death shooting the same guns and calibers all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Just another toy for men instead of boys. Its new and it will sell like hotcakes for awhile then back off because they will come out with another miracle of the gun world..I'll just keep my 6x45 and my 250 Savages..but then I've been thru this scenario for 70 plus years or more..!! most of them died on the vine!

And some of us are also over 50, 60, etc and enjoy messing with new things. Don't know about you but I would be bored to death shooting the same guns and calibers all the time.

I think you two are singing from the same song sheet, just different stanzas .
Boredom plays less of a role when you build wildcats. Also testing many different powders and bullets will fulfill your shooting needs. roger

I ordered one yesterday, and it should be at my LGS tomorrow.

George

Just a hunter,
Well maybe but don't forget the 5 MM Rem., the 225 Win. and the number of calibers recently dropped from the Rem and Winchester line of ammo..They really cleaned house..Its really hard trust these companies, if something doesn't sell they stop production of ammo, the new class of beancounters could care less..The old timers kept making ammo and bit the bullet, remember the 32 spec. 25-35, 35 Rem and others they stopped production on..Fortunatly other companies like Hornady jumped in recently started making some of the old ammo..

Snowwolfe,
Your right I got bored when I was a young man in his early 20s and again at about 50, but at 82 or 83 I find wildcatting boring as hell, as that pair of jeans has been washed to death and all we do anymore is remake the wheel with a different name.

Just my two bits. BTW I think the Creedmore is an excellent design, and compares to a 250 Savage or 257 Robts from a practicle standpoint, but I don't intend to buy one because I have the other two and a 6x45 (my only wildcat today)...

But hope the Creedmore is a raging success, can't have too many good calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:


Snowwolfe,
Your right I got bored when I was a young man in his early 20s and again at about 50, but at 82 or 83 I find wildcatting boring as hell, as that pair of jeans has been washed to death and all we do anymore is remake the wheel with a different name.

Just my two bits. BTW I think the Creedmore is an excellent design, and compares to a 250 Savage or 257 Robts from a practicle standpoint, but I don't intend to buy one because I have the other two and a 6x45 (my only wildcat today)...

But hope the Creedmore is a raging success, can't have too many good calibers.

Although I agree for the most part that today's wildcats do't yield any real gain for the public they tend to intrigue me. I started designing Wilcats about 1957. My first attempt was a 6.5 on a stepped up .243 with a sharper shoulder and longer neck.The rifle was deep throated to faciitatethe 160 grain bullets It finally got built in 2010 by Vapo Dog. in the early 60s I designed and had built ,by Ackely, a
6.5 X .284.Since communication wasn't what we have today I thought perhaps I was the author of that cartridge.Right after I had Fred Barnes build me a 6mm x.270 Improved. Backing up a bit I had Elmer Spurger build me my 7 x 41 IMP, 7.62 X 41 IMP. .358x 41 . IMP and the .375 x 41 IMP . These were designed about 1959 but not built until 1981.
around 1994 my 8mm x 404 x 2.5" was built. My .375 X .404 IMP. was first fired in 1999.My last wildcat was the 22 JET Rimless built on a Ruger #1.If nothing else these have been my toys.
The Creedmore my be a neat design but it isn't any better than a modern day load in the 6.5 X 50 Arasaka, 6.5 X 53R, 6.5 Carcano, and 6.5x54. These cartridges are over 100 years old. The Creedmore will not kill anything any better than these old guys. The life of the Creedmore will last as long as there are guns sold for it and brass made. I sure don't see many of them at the range. What we do see increasing is semi - auto military type rifles. This being the case it would seem that the Grendle will have a longer life expectancy than the Creedmore. We'll see how long Hype and Marketing can keep it alive.
I'll be shooting a number of reduced loads in the 22PPC tomorrow using H-110 again.
roger

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:

it's a very smart and efficient choice, even so much more than a .308...

Todd

Blasphemer!!!

Tactical shooting is the current upcoming shooting sport. This sport requires an accurate semi-auto with box magazine and a good scope if you want to be competitive. The lighter recoiling 6mm's are easier and faster to shoot and it doesn't take much energy to ring steel or put a hole in a target, and BC is not critical when shooting at a 24" gong at 600 yds. If tactical targets are shot at ranges longer than 600 yds. I haven't heard of it and targets are fairly large. A close friend of mine is a very good tactical shooter and he's shooting a 6 SLR with 115 Dtacs.