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Folks, look at the newstands for his article PRAISING the 270 for 13 1shot kills on antelope all with Ruger #1, (12 shots, 12 kills in a similar magazine), THEN ask WHY he believes that a 7x57 is LESS than adequate as a 'Plains Game rifle' but the 270 is the Cat's Meow??? I take issue, as this guy is SUPPOSED to know his stuff, raved about his daughter using a Kimber 708 in Africa, factory loads mind you, less than MY 708 loads, or a 'properly loaded 7x57' He just CANNOT seem to get past his old MAGNUM mentality. A 270 can do WHAT that a 7x57 cannot EQUAL or better? I have NEVER owned a x57, but HAVE and DO own 708's. He MUST need to sit down a RE-EDUCATE, OR Educate himself on what a 7x57 CAN and WILL do next to a 270. I think a 7x57 with a good load can come so darn close to equalling a 270 trajectory to make it EQUALLY effective as a plains game rifle, but the EXPERT CB does not. If he thinks so highly of a 270, what about a properly loaded 6.5x55 also? Personally, this man has written a mixture of good and bad in what I have seen, but to PRAISE in that article how good his 7mm STW is on a 300 yd shot (and say the 7x57 just would not get r done!) when a 358 winchester properly loaded and sighted, WITH a shooter who knows his rifle/load and HOW to use it, could do the same, and in the same article slander the 7x57, yet then turn around a rave on the 270. Give me a ......g break Craig Boddington. Get yourself a 7x57 Ruger #1, same barrel length, and put in on a chrono with equal pressure loads, SAME 130 gr you used in your 270, use that weight in the 7x57 then SHOOT them at 300 and 400 yds, WITH an EQUAL zero, say 200-250 yds, and tell us Craig the results, the truth. Dang I hate it when so called "Expert's" are SO out of the know. It is their job to KNOW what they speak/write, find it out first, or just don't say it w/o anything to substantiate it. We need more of the likes of Bob Milek, Finn Aaggard sp?, Elmer, Zutz, and SO many writers who have gone to the happy hunting pastures! They spoke FROM knowledge, WITH knowledge, not emotion. So you NEEDED a 7mm STW to HIT an animal at 300 yds? A big game animal? No beef with WV Zwolle, Haviland, Spomer, Barnsness, Miller, Harris, Simpson, Waters, etc. etc. Enjoy the knowledge most of them share, but I seem to see time and again CB has things twisted, often in favor of magnum's or magnum sized ctg's. Perhaps he is in need of the emotional lift they bring, but come on CB! Get real! Perhaps I just got REAL lucky using my pipsqueak 6mm BR at 400 yds to centerpunch, KNOWING I was going to hit center mass in the chest cavity before I broke the trigger. I guess since my little puny BR uses 1/3 the powder of your whizbang magnums, I should limit my range to 100 yds? Gee, good thing my deer did not know just how unlucky he was that I 'lobbed' a bullet into and thru his lungs! Where do some of these guys get off? This VERY kind of MIS Information is why so many wonderful rounds are not popular, more popular, or just obsolete. Likewise, CB contributes to TOO many beginner shooters starting off, or trading into rifles that have FAR more capability, then they will ever need, NOR be able to USE. They will develop flinching and shoot less well, often because of thinking they NEEDED the BIGGEST LONGEST reaching rifle because the author said so. My .02 for the day. | ||
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Boddington has praised the 7 mauser many times in his writings. If you have read his books, he believes it to be a fine round. Earlier in his career, he was a proponent of the magnum rounds, but the last few years, he more often than not, has big praise for eh mid range rounds such as the .270, 7-08, .280, 7 mauser, and often praises the .243 or 6mm stuff. He is a very good and interesting writer IMHO Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum | |||
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Well boddington has build a Custom Mauser in 7x57 , he wanted that classic round in an new made M98 for various hunting here and there . | |||
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In the article he references his girlfriend, and I believe a 7x57 for her use, YET in one moment he has NOTHING BUT praise for the 270 as a plains game round, and the next he is saying the 7mm STW was more or less necessary to pull off a 300 yd shot. I guess he likes the 7x57 for 'short range?' That is how I interpret what he has written. I agree with much what he has said, though disappointed in his being such a proponent of magnums, perhaps one can argue, better 'use enough' but I am simply talking about his statement that the 7x57 is more or less inadequate for those 300 yd shots. Heck, any reasonable round will hit vitals with a 200 zero, and a spine POI at 300, on a deer or antelope size animal. | |||
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Wish I could spend my life worrying about what others liked or didn't like. On second thought, no I don't........ | |||
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Come on DEEP breath "Science only goes so far then God takes over." | |||
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About a year or so back, there was a lot of flak on this site about Boddington and his disputed promotion to general in the U.S.M.C. Reserve. Before I go any farther, let me say I don't much care for most of his writings, but this is a personal thing. However, when the Vigaro was hitting the Mismaster back the, Mr. Boddington took the trouble tp explain his situation, and did it in a very gentlemanly manner. I can respect him for that. I do know that he had a very expensive Rigby Mauser made up in 7x57 Mauser. He also wrote one hell of a good article on the .358 Win. about a year ago. I shoot and hunt with both the 7x57 Mauser loaded to it's full potential and with the .358 Win. on occasion as well. FWIW, just because I don't much care for a particular gun writer doesn't mean I won't read what he has to say about a rifle or cartridge I like. Sometimes I even agree with him. We all have writers we like and dislike. Maybe it's because we either agree or disagree with what they might say, or just might not like their style of writing. Sometimes though, I think it's just plain old jealousy cuz they get all the freebie or near freebie hunts. Let's face it, CB has had more of those than most of the other gun writers. Nowadays, when I read what's in the gun rags, I try to keep an open mind. if it agrees with what little experience I have, fine. If not, I take it with a grain of salt until I can prove otherwise. Paul B. | |||
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Sometimes, there is just no accounting for such things! I remember when crotchety old Colonel Charlie Askins wrote a fool piece called "Let's Scrap Yesterday's Cartridges". I don't recall what all was on his list, or how/if he even mentioned the archaic 7X57mm. But I do recall he wanted to trashcan the 6mm Remington, but thought the .243 Winchester was the Cat's Meow! I wrote him a letter challenging this idea, and pointed out that as a handloaders' round, the 6mm was superior (which I still believe!!) He never responded. But I didn't think he would!! Personally, I believe a 7X57 firing a 130-140 grain bullet at close to 3000 FPS, which it can, is as good as a .270 Win. any day. "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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You've got to give this guy a break. He has written so much stuff, that he's probably written things he doesn't agree with. When you put so much material into writing, you are eventually going to say something that somebody or everybody is going to disagree with. I know I've made STATEMENTS that, upon reflections, I disagreed with. If I wrote as much as Boddington has, everybody would hate me. Or, we could just fire him, like we did Zumbo. Not. I'd say just let this one go. Deep breath was a good idea. | |||
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Life offers many battles to fight.....IMO this isn't one of them! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I would hate to have to live on the difference between the 270, 7x57 and 7MM-08. I have or still have all three and the difference is slight indeed. I agree that when a guy like Boddington writes as much as he does, he is bound to change a few notes in the tune. All in all I like his writing and value his opinion. Almost as much as O'Connor. Go 270. | |||
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roger Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Guess I'm getting old...I like both the 270 and the 7x57. And I feel blessed to be in the field hunting regardless of the caliber of the rifle or the draw weight of the bow I'm carrying! I envy CB's time spent hunting...he must've made better choices than have I! Good hunting, Andy ----------------------------- Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” | |||
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Ok, I will forgive CB, just this time! Ha. I guess I am a stickler for details, I did not get high blood pressure from it mind you, but it ruffled my feathers, as I thought it did not make sense. I did read the excellent 358 article, and he was spot on, and I was really taken aback that he gave good credit where do to a ctg that has had a bad rap. Ok, I will accept no one is perfect, I am not. I guess this is one of those things that at the most should be addressed as some magazines write 'corrections' when readers call someone on something, perhaps typos that may risk a dangerous reload. CB, I forgive you. El Deguello, well put, and AC, agreed. Thanks for putting things in perspective for me. Now about Dumbo, I mean Zumbo........seriously, I never read up on all the whoop la but get the drift, and think it was something he might have regretted due to the fall out. I think Jim Z seems to know much about elk hunting, etc., but his political stance chapped many 2nd amendment owners, and it does not surprise me. I have thought much lately about the horrible VA situation, and how the media may be used to portray 'owners' and now how there has been talk about 50 cal bans, read about this while in NJ recently, and think about all the press the 11 year old who in GA recently killed supposedly a 1000 Plus pound hog, with none other than a mighty 50 cal S&W magnum, I guess the new 500. He must have been so concerned about the Hog turning against him, he never worried about recoil, he fired numerous shots I understand. I am happy for this kid, check it out if you have not seen the clip. http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/25/monster.pig.ap/index.html video here.....real or fake is the debate for some, it's impressive anyway you look at it... http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/...y.shoots.big.hog.cnn I am not into 'super size' handguns, but anything near the size of what this animal looks like, would make you want to 'carry a big gun' so one would not end up sausage before the hog. I think this new rash of SUPER SIZED hogs gives the sportsman support for owning AR's, 50 cal rifles and handguns for protection! These animals are dangerous if they attack. Without being properly armed, these things could over populate and wreck havoc on innocent civilians! Does it not give a whole new perspective to the 2nd amendment? God forbid this kid was only armed carrying a 38 revolver or other politically correct firearm while in the woods of this hog. Ok, now that are back to serious matters, again, my apologies to CB if I was harsh. Have a great evening folks. | |||
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6.5br, Its not exclusive to CB. Barnsness wrote an article (10yr+ ago?) puttin crap on the 308win,but in a more recent Handloader magazine(2yr ago?), he praises it. A man cannot change his height just by thinking/opinionating that he is shorter or taller than he really is. Same goes for cartridge capability. Theres no doubt one can get the 7x57 smokin along with 154IB near 2900...a formidable little package. But when it comes to 175gn, 280rem(so close to .270win)has definite vel.advantage. | |||
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Hmm, I don't care for the 270, love the 280 and the 7x57. I also like the 25-06, 257 Weatherby, and 264 Winchester. So that means I like all of them but the 270. I guess to me it's Jack O'Connors cartridge, and the whole thing has been done to death. Nothing worse than picking up a beautiful rifle built to fit you and finding out it's a 270. I guess everyone has cartridges that they like and don't like. For me Jack's Cartridge isn't for me. It's too much of a comprimise for anything for me. For antelope ideally the 25-06, 257 Weatherby, and 264. Shooting 115 or 120 grain bullets. For deer, sheep (not that I have killed one), and middling African game I like the 30-06 or a .284 or larger shooting 160 grain bullets. Obviously for bigger stuff bigger gun. The 270 is just kind of a comprimise. Too much in the middle. I know John Sundra feels the same way about the 30-06. Can't like every cartridge. And yes I do love old Jack O'Connors writings, but I like Elmer too! | |||
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well D99 I can.t think of a cartridge I don't like. I might not like a givin round for a particular purpose, But I bet I can find a load thats fun for somthing. The old 25,20 really ain,t good for much, it was a decent rabbit killer in its day, but I would enjoy hell out of a 92 winchester in 25,20 just to load up that little case and kill pop cans...tj3006 freedom1st | |||
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If a writer said "they're all good" there would be nothing to write about next month. It was just the .270's turn, and it needed a bit of praise, (that month.) Just wait a while and your favourite cartridge will turn up. | |||
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Craig is a very good man, and I respect him for what he is doing as a USMC Brigadier General. He is living a life many of us can only dream of living; hunting all over the world, and then writing about it. He is serving our country too. Don | |||
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ya gotta understand, people who set out to be gunwriters do not live in the same world as the rest of us who have to figure out what we want a rifle for, and then scrape up the $$$ to buy it. Mostly factories give them the rifle to test and let them keep it gratis if the article reads positive; ie "Your life is incomplete unless you have one of these...". The two other pieces of the puzzle are equal parts ego and selling magazines. If a gunwriter can get a controversy stirred up, even over something as inane as one Shooting Times (IIRC) series where writer A says the 270 is all the rifle you need for NA in the May issue. In the June issue writer B says, BS! the 30-06 is still king. In the July issue writer C says "in the hands of a reloader and skilled rifleman...the 280 Remington will outperform both...". The proletariat eats that sort of stuff, or used to. I wrote for a magazine as a staff writer, almost nine years for one publication. New & different & controversial sells magazines. Editors love responses, especially rabid agreement or disagreement...it means the article got people thinking, and talking about what was written. A tempest in a teapot if you will. Rich DRSS | |||
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I think Craig Boddington is a real decent guy.... But like anyone working for someone else... he gets instructions, and to get paid, he has to follow those instructions... So it is evident that some told him that they wanted him to Hawk a 270 over the competition.... I have been in sales for years...it is all about knowing the features and benefits of one product over another... which usually means leaving out the features and benefits of the other product ( eg, the competitive one)... Besides Gun Mags are really for those NOT in the know on most of this stuff... Which statistically is NOT a lot of us who are regulars on this forum... We know about 10,000 % more about firearms than the average consumer that those Magazines are aimed at... That is why I haven't bought one in eternity, but I am guilty of perusing thru them on the shelf at Walmart.. just to see if anything is interesting and usually just scan the article... once every blue moon, I actually get a good idea out of them... but that is really ONCE IN A BLUE MOON!!! | |||
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Re: Craig Boddington This fellow is either a congenitally rich man or he has the world's best expense account from G&A. | |||
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I wrote off Mr. Boddington as a high end writer ages ago, largely because he is at the mercy of the publishers and those that fund his expense account. On the other hand, my "trusty" .270 let me down badly in Africa earlier this month. I didn't loose any game, but I did have a couple of disgusting three shot kills on Springbok and the Black Wildebeest required a follow up to get him in the salt. Postmortem inspections showed that the 130 grain bullets went into the right spot, but they didn't expand sufficiently, ie, drove on thru like solids. A 7x57mm might have done better, so would a .30-06. Wonder what Mr. Boddington has to say about a .30-06 in Africa? LLS | |||
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AMEN!!!!!!! Brother LLS | |||
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Quite a few years back, Mr. Sundra did a debate with Bob Milek on the 7MMs vs the 30-06. His part in the debate was titled, "The 30-06 is a ballistic has been." After reading what he had to say, I decided he was a "F"ing idiot. I haven't changed my mind. At the time of the article, he admitted that he'd never even shot one, let alone used one on game. He used actual experience with 7MM cartridges vs ballistic tables for the 30-06. Yep, I still hold the opinion that he's n "F"ing idiot. Paul B. | |||
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I was at the Glock party at the Shot Shot many years ago in Vegas and was tslking with several of the better known Winchester guys. The common concensus as to "gun writers" was they all are PROSTITUTES. Seems like it mostly depends on who signs the checks!!! I always had a problem with the guy who used to do his "My Favorite Gun" thing years ago. THEN!! One day I looked in the mirror!! YEAH!! I got over 100 "Favorite Rifles" myself. Nuff said I guess. Aloha, Mark When the fear of death is no longer a concern----the Rules of War change!! | |||
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A cartridge, is a cartridge, is a cartridge!!!! In the league of 7x57 vs. .270 is like "picking fly crap 'outa the pepper. Actually, we could include the .280 Remington, 6.5x55 and possibly the good 'ol .25-'06 and .30-'06 on each end. Go on down, and we got the .260 Remington, 7mm08 and the .308 Winchester. The WONDERFUL .284 Winchester too. It's just that fly turds vary some microscopically. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" Hamlet III/ii | |||
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No matter what is said in this thread General Boddington will make his wages writing and enjoy his perk hunts as well. I'm sure by this time he finds going hunting a chore and writting for the mob just a real inconvinience. It's his job no matter how glamorous it sounds to us I'm sure by this time it's become a pain in the ass to to him. roger Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Sundra is a 7mm 'addict' for sure, and I guess many shooters have their 'flavors in favor' but that was emotion vs logic, flawed thinking. I remember well, Bob did an article on a custom rifle that by coincidence, a 1909 mauser was built into an '06, plain but Milek knew for an all around gun, it was tough to beat, I agree, though I personally like smaller rounds that can accomplish the kills cleanly with less recoil, but do like say 338/06 for larger game in the US. That said, I guess I failed to consider by my bad, the commercial 'influence' the industry has on writers. Too bad they don't always align. Thanks for the replies. | |||
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I tell you what, you let me hunt in Africa 8 months out of the year and other countries the other 4 and I'll write whatever the hell you want me too! LOL .270 works for me. Hate it just to hate it but it knocks the snot out of everything I can shoot. But I'm multiple tax brackets lower than the more astute "gentleman" on here. The 7-08/7x57 vs. .270 are different animals. Man I thought you were going to pop a blood vessel there 6.5 LOL Magazines are like radios if you dont like what you hear change the channel. I know most gunwriters are full of BS but I sit back and make my own conclusion. I just like to read about whats new and unusual. I know most new things are copies of old things in the gun world but I like to stay on top. I also like to read about people hunting in places that I will never be. I can dream but will more than likely never go. I guess what I'm trying to say is feed me the bull and occupy my mind for a while! | |||
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Fact is the .270 is the "cat's meow"! But, then so isn't the .243, .30/06, .300 H&H Mag., or any other caliber that a hunter prefers. If Craig Boddington likes the .270 I think that is great, and he should write about it. Craig Boddington is a fine writter, and a good man. He represents us as hunters very well! Oh, bye the way I'm glad he didn't write about that odd ball called the .280, or 7 M/M Express or what ever new name they have to call it to get someone to buy it! | |||
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There are gun writers like John Barsness, Steven Dodd Hughes, and Michael Petrov who have integrity. I enjoy their writings too. The magazine publisher's thing is to have a magazine that will sell. Nothing more. The publisher has to balance advertisements to articles in page count, so subscribers will buy the rag. Advertisements pay the bills. I personally decided last year that the gun magazines need to be supported as they are one important face of the hunting and shooting fraternity. So, I subscribed to all of them. We need them to continue our presence in the shooting sports, along with the Internet. Many of the gun magazines are cheap on an annual subscription basis. I may not read many articles in each rag I subscribe to, but looking at the ads makes them worthwhile. Without the ads, I'd be hard pressed to learn about new stuff coming on line. The rags keep me enthused too. By subscribing to them, we keep guys like John Barsness, Steven Dodd Hughes and Michael Petrov, who write and publish photos, in our homes, where we can admire their good works. SDH and Michael Petrov visit this Forum regularly, and I enjoy having them write here also. Gun magazines are a very important part of keeping our shooting hobby alive. Gun writers are an important a part of the magazines, and they work to provide the best articles they can. In nearly all of the magazines, there is a forum for feedback on articles written by the gun writers. If someone has an issue with an article, a letter to the editor is appropriate. That feedback by us readers is what keeps future articles on target. Don | |||
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Good thoughts here, agreed on most, I know Ted Nugent once said give him a 270 and a case of Federal premium with 150 partition and send him to africa and he would do well, I have no doubt. Using a bullet that can reach vitals in a rifle the shooter can place those shots, is key. About popping a blood vessel, well my pressure actually never jumped much, but it did have a little 'temporary spike' but again, little. I just hate for the masses to get a false notion or misaligned on the true capabilities of some of the 'old cartridges' that are not commonly in vogue here in the US. Moderate capacity cartridges really don't give up much at normal hunting distances in terms of killing power and/or PBR as trajectory to 350-400 yds is more up to the shooter and how you sight in. Thanks for the replies. | |||
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Perhaps you can explain to me why my 6MM Remington is not a 500 yard deer rifle then? If my 40XBR in 6X47 has the 20 inch barrel installed what range is it good for versus the 6X47 barrel that is 27 inches long? I guess my 25/06 is a 600 yard deer rifle? | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by 6.5BR: Good thoughts here, Using a bullet that can reach vitals in a rifle the shooter can place those shots, is key.TRUE! And in my years as a hunter I knew darn few that could consistantly do it over 250 yds. I just hate for the masses to get a false notion or misaligned on the true capabilities of some of the 'old cartridges' that are not commonly in vogue here in the US. Moderate capacity cartridges really don't give up much at normal hunting distances in terms of killing power and/or PBR as trajectory to 350-400 yds is more up to the shooter and how you sight in And his ability to place that shot . I've seen more cowboys miss or wound game at shorter distances than place the shot as they should. Things may have changed a lot in the last 40 to 50 years but it seems that the well controlled well placed shot over 300 yds. is rare. The rifles do have the ability but most of the shooters fall a good bit short or think that one out of four is a good ratio. roger Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Well said. The .30-06 will still be around in another 100 years. More game hunters should return to it. The same goes for the 7x57 mm. Less recoil makes for better shooting. Warrior | |||
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Honestly, I think I would rather use a 7x57, over an '06 for recoil reasons alone. I know I shoot my 708 well, and was good up to the 338/06 but it was used for limited range sessions to sight and work loads, with 8 lb gun and decelerator pad, it had less bit and slower recoil pulse I believe than the one 06 I did own, a laminate SS Ruger, with rubber butt pad. The 06 is likely popular due to what it offers, as well as the long history, and the fact that it may be at about the limit for many average hunters who shoot little each year, in terms of recoil tolerance. If I was not so bent on adding a 6.5x55 and perhaps 260's again, I would be looking hard at a 7x57, though it would likely be too similar to my 708's to bother. Warrior, that likely will happen as things go full circle and the '06 has proven too much staying power to go anywhere! It will be here as long as any round for sure. | |||
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Hi 6.5BR, The 7 x 57 mm is perhaps one of the most under-rated medium sized calibers today in the United States. Most Americans base their opinions of the 7 mm Mauser on using a 140 grain bullet, as that is the sole load that US factories have on offer, being a light-for-caliber load. On top, it is loaded with frangible conventional bullets. The virtue of the caliber actually lies in shooting heavier bullets (from 160 gr to 175 gr) for which it was designed, being long-throated. The higher sectional density bullet at moderate velocity performs much better on impact, as it does not over stretch the bullet. With an expanding monolithic bullet, such as the Barnes-X, one can achieve surprising penetration which may be needed for bigger game such as the size of Elk. Some American hunters have used the 7 mm Mauser with success on Elk in the 60's and early 70's, before gunwriters achieved a successful swing of public opinion to the 7 mm Rem Mag (introduced in 1962). The following quotation may actually be an eye-opener for those that believe the higher the velocity the better. Dr. Ed Ashby says in ... 'Maximizing Monolithic Bullet Performance' ... that appeared in Man Magnum of June 2000 ... "The penetration disparity between high impact velocity and low impact velocity persists with the 30.06 Spr. At 2,792 fps, the 165 gr Barnes-X bullet penetrates far less deeply than it does at a velocity of 2,484 fps." Please note that the above mentioned velocity of 2,484 fps is the muzzle velocity and it only impacts at 2,304 fps and 2,214 fps at 100 and 200 yds respectively. Field experience has shown that at these moderate impact velocities most premium grade bullets do not lose their petals, and so causes a more effective wound tract all the way. And these velocities bring us into the 7 mm Mauser realm. Little wonder that some have remarked that this dinky caliber by far exceeds its paper ballistics. The 7 x 57 mm is every bit as useful today, as it was then. Actually more so, due to the availability of premium grade bullets. Warrior | |||
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I handload for my Remington 700 7x57 and get 2900+ fps with 140 grain Nosler Partition bullets.The 270 is a fine round but with this kind of performance out of the 7x57 it gives up nothing in field performance. Free speech has been executed on the altar of political correctness. | |||
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Oconnor had a lot of praise for the capability of the 7x57. But led us to believe the .270w was better. If thats the case, then commonsense tells me he should have simply necked the 06case to 7mm rather than oddball .277cal. The fact that the .270win is an American creation-that was promoted to the hilt, is what puts it in lights, not that it is actually superior to anything. Fortunately Bodington does see the praises of some less common cartridges. He has high regard for the 9.3x64B, which for many practical and sensible reasons, should be where the .375H&h is today. Unfortunately world events altered its destiny. | |||
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