I picked up a Ruger Ultralight rebarreled in 257 Robts, low and behold it had a bench rest throat in it and would require outside neck trimming, had a beautiful trigger, glass bedded and some other nice work...I don't need a bench rest chamber so decided on reaming out the neck to standard but for the same money I could have a 257 Ackley and it shoots std 257 Robts ammo as well, so why not..

It shoots great and I picked up almost 300 FPS with max loads, not 50 FPS as some on the internet claim..It also has a long throat..Its walking on the heels of a 25-06 but so far my using load is mild and about 100 FPS over a handloaded 257 Robts..My fireform load was 40 grs of BLC-2 and that mild load shoots real slow and with hardly any recoil into all fireformed loads (40) shot into a 1-1/4 inch group, and I was not concentrating just fire forming at a 100 yard target..Im liking this rifle, I will definatly shoots some whitetail in Texas this year, and perhaps a cow elk in a friends alfalfa patch on a depredation hunt.

The 257 + 7x57 were 2 of Parkers favourites in an AI config.Bore to cap. ratio. Hell ,he would have known.This is coming from an EXPERT that dealt with every calibre under the sun.Ray,I think you are wise to leave it as it is.

One thing Ive noticed about the nay sayers with the Ackleys and that is they punch it out and go to shooting with short chambers..If one gives the Ackley a long throat like many do with a std.257 Robts or 7x57 its a different ball game, A Ackley with a short throat? the bullet takes up powder space and voids the best results. To sum it up they know not from whence they come..A 257 or 7x57 std. benefits greatly from a long throat and 06 length magazine, In the Imp version its even greater, and the 257 Ackley I have is pushing tight the 25-06, so far its just about 50 FPS behind my 25-06 pages of reloading...

I like this 257 Ackley as well as the 257 Robts' that Ive owned and as well as th 25-06s, 270 etc.,at least for a hunting rifle, it handier, lighter,and If I need more, I use my 06 or .338, NOt saying its better, it isn't, because they are all good calibers, damn little difference in any of the calibers from the Roberts to the 270, or 280 including the 7x57. at least on game with a proper bullets..the end results are similar. Anyway Im gunna play with this one for awhile, shoot some deer, a few cow elk, wring it out, have some fun, and I will surely sell it at some point, I always do, it'S in my DNA. I still love the 250-3000 best of all, I just can't help it!

Love my 257AI Ive sized brass from rem 6mm up to 8mm mauser, my has a throat that is med to long and love it, remember to anneal your brass after blowing out and it holds its length for a long time.

Annealing is a pain for me because Im not set up for it these days..I wonder if their is anyone who will do this commercially, I have a lot of brass that needs it. Ive just put it in coffee cans and bought new stuff when needed..any help on locating someone to anneal let me know, I'll send them my business..

Sometimes I wish I would have just opted for the standard 257, but you're right Ray. The gains are impressive and knocking on the 25-06's back door. It's a unique round.

Ive shot a lot of 115 gn BT's from mine. The polymer tips make me nervous for penetration, but damned if those things havent performed impressively so far, and their accuracy is unbelievable.

Enjoy your AI. I dont bother with annealing, but it's probably a good idea. Fireforming can become monotonous. I just happen to have a batch of brass for mine in the tumbler now. Time to load up some varmint loads, burn up some old powder and get some trigger time.

I think as we age, the fun stuff like annealing, and fireforming etc. etc. become boring and more like work...oh well, I love the caliber...Its only downside is finding WW 257 new cases.....I have about 100 so can get by on that until the WW shows up at the stores as promised..

One of my favorite hunting rifles is a Win 70 SA I barreled with a featherweight profile 23" barrel in 25-284. Very accurate and I think I was using 115 BT's in it that killed like lightning. Don't remember the velocity but I was using 4831SC...pretty sure anyway, it's been a couple years since I loaded for it.

Call me a naysayer, but you won’t pick up almost 300 fps with a long throat and less than 10% case capacity increase...not at the same pressure anyway. Even Parker claimed less gain.

The old wildcatters’ trick of comparing low pressure factory velocities with “max” handloads can show big gains, mostly from the much higher pressures. Nosler (not Internet warriors) put this argument to rest years ago when they published pressure-tested loads for a number of “Improved” cartridges. Held to the same pressures, most showed zero to ~50 fps advantages over their parent case. As I recall (book not at hand) the greatest increase was around 100 fps with just a few loads. FWIW (not much) this mirrors my own admittedly limited experience with improved cartridges.

Believe whatever you want. Me, I’ll believe reliable, tested data over anecdotal claims.

.

I wont ague the point, but I worked up to 8 grs over book max with one powder in my 7x57 with several loads with one rifle, and 6 grs in another, and picked up near 300 FPS over book max with both..and brass has lasted as much as 10 to 15 reloads with a trim every 3rd or 4th reloading..I picked up 5% in velocity in a Sav. 99 IMP to equal book max of a 257 Robts..

Of course you don't get more velocity at the same pressure, that's an old agreeing point that never made since in the first place, but its up to the reloader find his rifles max ability..

I test each one of my rifles to find absolute max, not that I shoot those loads exclusively, but I want to know what the gun will do..

I find no fault in a 200 or 300 FPS or whatever increase over factory ballistics, and consider your approach to that is just a proving a point, but not valid IMO..Most all wildcats are compared to factory ballistics, its an improvement, but this is an age old argument wit valid points on both sides.

Ray: my question to you is which factory ballistics are you referring to? The original 117gr RN rounds from Win and Rem chronoed around 2500fps in several of my 257s.

Today's factory ballistics are different:

117gr SST Hornady: 2945
100gr Noster +P 3035
120gr /Federal Prem 2780
Win 117gr +P 2780

I get 2900 with 120s in several 257s using published data. My AI's only beat that by 50-75fps.

257 A.I...Yeah...I wanted one for a while...(ended up with a 250 Sav A.I.)I convinced myself that I could do 25-06 velos in a short action so why not...but like Ray said, to get useful high velos I would need to seat out which negated a SA IF I wanted to get optimum production or single load the longest and seat to mag length for the others and loose a modicum of velo.

The cost of custom dies and fiddly farting around with all the fidgety work to make the cases started coming into play. X 57 cases are plentiful so that wasn't a problem but A.I. dies and reamers cost, at least at the time I was contemplating...I had a 7x57 A.I. die set that probably could have worked for sizing, but for the neck sizing I would have had to worked around it...I'm not certain because I didn't do the research...again fidgety work...nowadays that's not such a problem.

I ended up just doing a 25-05...EVERYTHING about that cartridge is relatively cheap and most of the chambers I measured had long enough throats to seat out the longest bullets to the base of the case neck or a bit farther (~3.45" or slightly longer)...and pushing the envelope a bit without going nutz would give me all the velo I needed for the game I sought..and 3250+ fs with 120 gr Horn SP and RL-26 isn't all that bad.

And todays powders add new dimensions to that old Wildcat.

If I had a SA burning a hole in my mind today, I might go with the WSM version 257 Jamison if I wanted to spend the money on dies and reamer...depends on reamer/die availability. That way I could load to whatever velo I happened to want...from 250 A.I. to

Whatever's said and done, the 257 Roberts A.I. STILL sounds way kool, LOOKS way kool and WORKS way kool.

It's whatever your heart desires in this day and age...they're ALL good.

Good Hunting

My comparison was compared to Rem and WW factory stuff..Most of which was in the 2600 plus a bit FPS velocity range..and I got up into the 2900 to 3000 FPS, Im not making any fantastic claims and a good handload in the Robts would cut that to about 150 plus or minus improvement in the Ackley, and If I used a little more powder maybe 200 FPS improvement, but those loads were hot enough to make me back off..

If this gun wasn't so damn accurate I think I would punch it out to 25-06 to save fireforming etc etc...but I like it a lot as is, so anymore changes are not on my menu for now. Its a great round as is...If I need more, I'll take my 30-06 or whatever, Im not a one gun feller!! by any means.

Since I had CP Donnelly build a 257AI on a thinned FN 98 action, about 30 years ago, I've accumulated 2 old M70s and a 30S in 257R. I suppose I should start from scratch on load development, following Ken Waters' methods so as to keep things even. also, I'd be using WW 7x57 brass necked down for all four to remove that variable. As far as hunting goes, there is no comparison between the custom FN and the three heavy factory rifles, whether or not the AI made any difference.

quote:

Originally posted by TX Nimrod:
Call me a naysayer, but you won’t pick up almost 300 fps with a long throat and less than 10% case capacity increase...not at the same pressure anyway. Even Parker claimed less gain.



.

Parker also said that the 7X57 and 257 were among the best improved cases he ever did. Of coarse the pressure will have to be higher to achieve those results. But every case has its own limitations, and I believe that the extra taper of the standard case contributes to bolt thrust, whereas the improved case directs more of said pressure directly into the chamber walls. My loads are also right on the heels of the 25-06 with no signs of excessive pressure. And I am a little persnickety about that, I dont like locked bolts or case head separations. The 30-30 is another case that benefits a LOT from the AI treatment.

Truth is...back in the day P.O. did a LOT of "guesstimating" in his books as there weren't a surfeit of chrono's around and many of his estimates were based on information we know as being faulty nowadays...NO DISS OR FLAME INTENDED TO P.O....his books were, and still are, my bibles to some extent even with all the software I use.

Most of the velos/pressures that those "A.I'ed" cartridges were loaded to WERE NOT factory published velos/pressures...ANYONE who has done this game for more than a few years has seen all the BS the reloading manuals have gone through and the strengths of modern receivers...

And DON'T forget the 250 Savage A.I...that little booger will open your eyes WIDE if you ever build/shoot one.

ALL those mentioned cartridges shot in a modern receiver at equal, modern pressures, can achieve velos only dreamed of when P.O. was doing his thing...and of course...have velos way above yesteryear's velos.

Plus todays powders can achieve results far superior to the "old stand-by's"...I'm starting to test out some of the newer Hodgdon
"Enduron" powders in place of the 20-40 year old powders I settled on and the few that I've tested already show upwards of ~100 fs or more velo increase with the same or better accuracy with the same bullets/cases/primers/seating of the original loads.

If you keep the delicious apples in one basket and the persimmons in another I've found that that mathematical calculation of "1/4 the DIFFERENCE" between the original case and the A.I.'ed case hold pretty close...in other words...250 Sav ~45 gr H2O - 250 Sav AI ~ 51, 257 Roberts ~56 - 257 Roberts AI ~63, 7x57 Mauser ~56 and 7x57 Mauser AI ~63(basically the same as the 257 Roberts without going nutz with the scale)...basically 6-8 gr H2O difference...1/4 that is ~1.5 gr OR 1/4 the velocity difference.

Of course ANYONE can fiddle the numbers to make their shooter so much better than the others which is OK by me...I love a good fish story...and this game is NEVER LINEAR...it still DOESN'T change the physics of powder burning...the better/higher velocity that can be found in using the newer powders designed for use within a range of burn rates and case volumes REALLY make some of my toys shine brighter...and some of the newer, slower burning Enduron powders work GREAT in those overweight, small cal cases...but that's an other story.

I think the things we can do today in wildcatting is just totally far out...whether or not it's been done before or there might be something "better" (whatever that means)...the fact that WE CAN DO IT is more valuable than "Gold Pressed Latinum".

Whenever I come across an exceptional shooter and hit a fantastic load for it I LEAVE IT ALONE no matter what other warts it has or how big they are. I made two mistakes with two rifles like that because I didn't learn on the first go round...re-throated one and rechambered the other and the NEVER shot worth a shi* again. I tried many loads that I knew were .5 moa or better in other rifles of the same cartridge...to this day I DON'T HAVE A CLUE what the problem(s) were. BOTH receivers ended up with other barrels/calibers that were bug-holers and BOTH receivers are still in my stable with even different barrels/calibers.

I just won't fiddle with shooters that do good even if they are butt-ugly...once they are built/bedded and a good load found I won't even take them out of the stock to finish it. Needless to say I have several very embarrassing "things" hidden in corners that NEVER COME OUT when company is present... ...but they DO shoot.

Good Hunting

I loved the Crack by Master Jack O'C that the .257 seemed to be the product of a committee. Long cartridge in a short action...

Annealing, Howe I believe recommended a simple, dip the neck into molten pure lead. Couple degrees short of ideal temp but close enough. Use your fingers and when it is too hot to handle drop into water. Pure lead. Alloyes melt cooler. And if the case is dirty, fired unlikely that any lead will stick. As others have said, haven't don that in a long time. Luck. Happy Holidays. Happy Trails.

Way too many numb-nuts were involved in designing cases and rifles and all the accouterments that goes along with this sport.

The Ackley round that makes the most sense to me is the 250 AI. It fits in a short action and there is quite a bit of additional velocity because the parent case has so much taper. I don’t quite understand the 257 AI though. Judging by the information on the Nosler site, there is a six or seven grain difference in water capacity between the 257 AI and the 25-06. Looking at the loading data for a 110 grain bullet, just as an example, for a velocity of 3000 FPS, there is nevertheless little difference in the powder charge needed between the two cartridges to achieve that. That is, if you select particular powders. Exceptionally slow powders will of course require heavier charges for a given velocity. Point being though, by taking care about the powder you choose, you can achieve similar velocity in the 25-06, without burning much more. Given that both cartridges require a long action, I really don’t see much of a downside to just going with the 25-06, assuming one wants to shoot a 25 caliber. It also offers the option of higher velocity if wanted. And then there’s the availability of good factory ammunition. What am I missing here?

Salesmanship and gullibility...we shooters can be sold a bill of goods very easily.

And the fact that you can shoot factory AND AI. Supposedly a very good thing if you run out of AI stuff and can go to the nearest sporting good store and buy factory 257...mostly a fallacy but swallowed hook line and sinker...although not totally wrong...I've used more 250 Sav factory ammo to make 250 AI cases than fire forming 22-250 brass or buying empty brass.

You DO get a modicum of velo increase in the AI versions which, at the time it was conceived meant just a chamber job and most of the smaller cases were on SA receivers so you could achieve LA velos very easily in a "lighter, more maneuverable, better handling rifle...(dogs wallupe).

Actually...the 257 AI can achieve equal or better than 25-05 velos in all but the heaviest bullet weights if you do the right thing with powders and load to the same pressures.

The AI's filled a roll back in the day and are STILL doing good jobs in todays world...I don't see any problems with doing ANY one of them, especially if you use a LA so you gain the extra COAL and the slight bit of extra volume.

Good Hunting

I'll start by saying I've never had any improved cartridges to work with.
There is an increase in velocity, no dispute. The main thing I see with them is with the straighter sides and sharper shoulders the main gain you get is in headspace control and case life, ie less trimming.
Leo

Of interest to some is I found the best of the Ackleys was the 250-3000, not for the gain in velocity which it certainly got from a standard factory round but when you blow that case shoulder out and take the taper out, you can increase the pressure limitation considerably over the tapered case..Its the best thing you can do to the 99 SAVAGE. The AI case is just so much better in that lever action, same with the mod. 94 Win. its right up there with a 300 Savage...My present 250 is just too much of a collector to mess with it,I just hunt with it and try not to skin it up too much...

Im no longer a wild catter and wish I had kept my 257 Ackley a standard long throated rifle or a 25-06..but its done and I like it a lot, and Ive got most of my brass and stuff done now, so the worst is over...A younger man would go bonkers over this gun, I guarantee that!

One thing so many have yet to learn and that is why take a light recoiling handy little 250 or 257 and make it more powerful, the beauty was that it wasn't a recoiling caliber, didn't kick and was a pleasure to shoot, until we made it not so!!! If one wants more power then buy a 25-06, a 257 Wby or whatchamacallit magnum..We got it all backasswords!! I have to keep telling myself that!!

quote:

Originally posted by iiranger:
I loved the Crack by Master Jack O'C that the .257 seemed to be the product of a committee. Long cartridge in a short action...

The .257 Roberts, 6mm Rem and other 7X57 derivatives are designed for intermediate length M98 actions which are the same length as SR Mauser actions.

I have a 1934 Mexican SR M98 action that has an internal magazine length of 3.235" and that would be perfect for a .257 Roberts A.I.



My Quickload predictions for the .257 Ackley Improved show that 3.00 COAL is the "sweet spot" for efficiency with <62K pressure ceiling using Norma MRP and the 115 Nosler BT.




3.00" COAL allows a slightly compressed load density with the 115 gr BT which is where, IME, MRP shows excellent standard deviation behavior.

WJ,

I run my dads 257AI just under 3.0" with 115gr NP's, it did find a sweet spot there. I am using H4831sc

I hear lots of claims about Ackleys over loading, yet Ive shot many of his "overloads" without any problems, but like with ANY quoted loads, I cut back 10% or at least 3 grains and work up...

Perhaps many who flame old Ackley are just passing information they have read or heard, or so it seems to me...Like any quoted load, it can be max or a pussy cat, depends on the rifle, it barrel, its chamber, and its gunsmith, and the shooter who makes the decisions of max..Many just guess I fear then make erroneous claims in many cases..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I hear lots of claims about Ackleys over loading, yet Ive shot many of his "overloads" without any problems, but like with ANY quoted loads, I cut back 10% or at least 3 grains and work up...

Perhaps many who flame old Ackley are just passing information they have read or heard, or so it seems to me...Like any quoted load, it can be max or a pussy cat, depends on the rifle, it barrel, its chamber, and its gunsmith, and the shooter who makes the decisions of max..Many just guess I fear then make erroneous claims in many cases..

Virtually all of the new wave of "short magnums" utilize P. O. Ackley's "improvements".

Sharp shoulder angles and minimal case body tape.

I run my 8mm-06 Ackley Improved at around 60K predicted chamber pressure, 2900 fps with a 200 gr .323 Hotcor. I can't recall the last time I had to trim a case.

I just found out that E.R Shaw makes barrels in 257 Ackley Improved. Looks like a "no brainer" for my SR Mexican M98 action.

If the Quickload predictions for Norma MRP are as accurate for the 257 A.I. as they are for the 8mm-06 A.I., 3200 fos with a 115 gr BT should be realistic.

Hey Ray
Good luck tinkering with your new .257 Roberts.
I have a few and they seem to really like the 117 Sierra and it kills big Deer like nobodies business.
I've thought about using mine for elk and probably will and use the 117 Sierra but my sons .257 is shooting the 110 grain Accubond very well and might be a good bullet to look at.
Of course there are the Barnes Mono metal bullets but if I recall you are not a big fan of them.

Snellstrom,
Well, I have been shooting the 160 gr. Barnes TTSX Pt or whatever its called, the tipped one in my 8x57, and tried it out on some some whitetail does last year on the cull hunt..It was impressive, my problems with Barnes goes back to the early years and obviously they have improved them so I game to use them some more these days..My new 250-3000 original FN comm., also from a AR member is a tack drive with the Barnes X 85 grs..5 in one hole three times so far and always under 1/2 inch.

My good friend Randy (Norm on AR) gave me an annealer, and I can't think him enough, Lord knows I have enough old brass to fill a 55 gal drum twice times!!

Maybe at some point I'll rechamber my 257 Ackely to a 25-06, makes since to me if the 25-06 will clean up the ackely chamber, not sure about that..

I shot deer and one elk as I recall with that 117 gr.Sierra,in a 250 Savage it always worked for me, and expansion was perfect. I think slower velocity created perfect performance...Today I lean towards the Nosler Accubonds in most all the calibers Ive tried them in..Its my official elk bullet in the 30-06 and 338 these days.

For a hunting rifle in 257 Roberts Ackley, would a 24" barrel be adequate or should i go longer?

Matt

quote:

Originally posted by MattH270:
For a hunting rifle in 257 Roberts Ackley, would a 24" barrel be adequate or should i go longer?

Matt

If you would be happy with a 115gr bullet @ 3200+ fps, 24" barrel will do.

Had a 20" Ruger 257 UL in 257 AI, and still have a very nice Rem 700 24" Classic in 257 AI that some one rechambered from 250 Savage to 257 AI and increased mag length to allow longer OAL. The 24" shoots extremely well and with 120 gr bullets max is about 3020 FPS. With RL 19, AA 3100 and H 4350. 100 gr bullets about 3100 and change. RH rifle and I am LH so dont have a lot of use for it any more. May sell in the future.

Spend most of my shooting time anymore with one of my LH 6.5 Creedmoor,s.

I would much prefer a 25/243. Is that called 25 Super, not sure.

Obviously brass is super easy with simple 243 neck up and spot on for short action rifles.

Have any of you used H4350 with any success in the 257 improved? Mainly with the 100, 110 and 117grn bullets.

Matt

Matt send me a PM with E mail and I will send you my data Excel Spread Sheet used IMR 4350 which H should work as as well.
Kurt

Either of the 4350s will do good work in the Ackley, Ive been playing with it, but so far im liking H414 and CFE223 has promise, but Im just beginning...I used a max 257 Robts load to fireform the Ackleys and they shot a half inch at 100, so Im just going to use them up on coyotes, and whatever..I like that option, fireforming with bullets is expensive, but does a much better job than cornmeal or Kleenex over a wad of wax..

Question. Is there a weight of bullet that is better than the other for fire forming new cases?

Thanks,
Matt

quote:

Originally posted by MattH270:
Question. Is there a weight of bullet that is better than the other for fire forming new cases?

Thanks,
Matt

Heavier the better IMO. Sometimes the cases dont fully form with lighter loads. I like to try to use 100 gn or better for fire forming. IMR 4350 is my go to powder for mine, but pretty much anything that will work in an 06 does good, which leaves a lot of options.

Would a 120 bullet be to heavy?
Matt

Would a 120 bullet be to heavy?
Matt

quote:

Originally posted by MattH270:
Would a 120 bullet be to heavy?
Matt

Since people use cream if wheat and tissue paper for fire forming, I think any cheap bullet would do.

That is providing the chamber is cut correctly so that the standard 257 Rob case headspaces on the shoulder.

I would go with the cheapest bullet available and a light load of fast powder.