While researching the archives for 22/250 and Swift loads I came across several posts that concerned me. Some posts warned of erratic ball powder performance related to ambient temperature. Then I found some interesting posts related to volume and powder disperal related problems inside the case with ball powders.

My question is...Is it worth all the trouble to work up loads using H380 and 414 considering these issues? Like everybody else, I'd like to be able to count on my loads over a fairly wide temperature swing. Am I over reacting? Should I stick with stick?

I've used H-380 and H-414 in the 22-250 but wouldn't recommend a faster ball powder in that case.

For the .220 Swift the only ball powder I'd use is H-414......and I might add that this a prejudice of mine.....but a quite strong one.

I see no reason to not use these ball powders.....they are excellent for the cases I mentioned.

I experienced the temperature sensitivity of some ball powders before I ever read about it here. I quit using 760 and 748 because I want to shoot in 90+ weather here in TX. I got great groups with both powders and it was hard to give them up.

I have seen it posted that 760 and 414 are the same powder. I don't know that for a fact, but you might do a search for previous posts.

quote:

Originally posted by armadillo:
I experienced the temperature sensitivity of some ball powders before I ever read about it here. I quit using 760 and 748 because I want to shoot in 90+ weather here in TX. I got great groups with both powders and it was hard to give them up.

I've used ball powders shooting prairie dogs in 106 degree weather.....specifically H-414.

I had to back off my BL-C(2) loads in my .223 rifles because of the high temps but didn't have trouble with the H-414 in the 22-250 and Swift!

quote:

I have seen it posted that 760 and 414 are the same powder. I don't know that for a fact, but you might do a search for previous posts.

This is fact.....you can confirm it on Hodgden's website

you shouldn't be using max loads when you shoot in very hot weather any way..

other than that, the only problems or eraticness I have ever seen has been with H 335...

remember, powders are just a carrier for the chemicals that actually are ignited...fire H 335 at night also, and it will give an unbelievable fireball...

in 223s, I also had it screw up two actions, with a charge of 25 grains of H 335, which is sort of a real standard charge in that case...

I don't use H 335 any more...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gofast:


Am I over reacting? QUOTE]

I believe you are. I've had temp. problems with one of the 4350s for example but continue to use it and others. It is MHO that you establish useable limits for the prevailing conditions. You are not a wuss if you load below max. published data.

I have never had a more finiky or potentially dangerous powder than IMR 7383, yet today I still use it because I studied it and feel I use it within its safe limits. Acquiring knowledge and understanding to guide you is better than allowing fear to govern your actions. Oh! And by the way, I think you came to the right place. roger

I generally stick with Gold Bond for ball powder in hot weather.

Started using H-414 in either 1968 or 1969 and never looked back. It's a great powder!

Well, interesting replys here and I am sure you will get some more.

Myself, I am done with ball powders, period.

I have just had too many of the issues you mention to use them any more.

Ball powders tend to be quite temperature sensitive. I used to shoot H335 in my .223 Remington till I realized how much variation in speed I got on my chronograph depending on the ambient temperature.

If you study the many reloading manuals available you will see more variation in loads listed for H380 than any other powder. I assume it is a lot to lot thing, but the loads sure vary from Sierra to Speer to Hornady, etc.

In my trials H414 and H870 both left so much powder residue in the barrel I will never use them again. Besides which, H414 has shown me some MAJOR lot to lot variations.

When testing powders for position sensitivity I found 748 to be the worst powder tested. I was testing cast bullets in a 7mm-08 and found 200 fps difference in speeds when the powder was positioned near the primer, versus near the bullet.

No more ball powders for me, thanks.

in my .223 748 shot good in the summer but varied in the winter so i switched to varget. i now use extruded powders in all my rifle reloading.

Has anyone experienced these problems (heat or position sensitivity) with the Ramshot powders?
.

The only powder I've ever had severe temp variation problems with was NOT a ball powder...it was Hercules (then, now called Alliant) ReLoader-7. And that was with a 4,400 fps 20 gr. bullet load in the .17 Remington...NOT mild. (Ave. of 4,401 in winter; unuseable in summer, too fast for the bullets.) I still use a lot of ball powders, with burning rates all the way from AA 1680 & 2200 through W-785, in a lot of different cartridges from .22 Hornet through .300 Weatherby.

I prefer stick powders for max loads, but though old I am not foolish enough to load very often at max. I think the saying which applies to aviators also applies to handloaders. There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.

My guns may all blow up tomorrow, but I am not living in fear of that happening. I don't think it will, based on 50 years of experience with propellants.

Use moderate loads with either stick or ball powders, and you should be fine.

quote:

Originally posted by R Flowers:
In my trials H414 and H870 both left so much powder residue in the barrel I will never use them again. .

I did give up on the H-870 back in the 60s,but not because it was ball powder. The heavy residue left in the barrel took forever to get rid of; Kinda like mica.That was an unacceptable recognized limitation. roger

I have been using 748 in the 223's and 760 in the 22-250 and 243. do not have issues with either of the powders. shoot pd's and gophers all spring and early summer, so temp's can be in the 70's to the 90's. just don't push my loads to the max.

quote:

Originally posted by Winchester 69:
Has anyone experienced these problems (heat or position sensitivity) with the Ramshot powders?
.

I haven't. I use a lot of Ramshot Hunter and BigGame. I have tested some of my loads from 80*F to -15*F and have found Ramshot to be no more and no less sensitive than the "extreme" powders I use.

I use a heck of a lot of W-760 and WMR powder in my handloads. never had a problem with heat though and they've always worked just fine come hunting season. However, I do all my main load workup during the middle of Arizona's summer heat. Loads are then rechecked later in the year just prior to hunting season. I haven't had any problems yet using ball type powders and I've been using them almost exclusively since 1980 and totally exclusively since 1985, or there abouts. I got tired of having to weight out those long stick powders like the 4831s.
Paul B.

I use a lot of H-380 in many different calibers, and have had no problems. Some I loaded at mile high in Colorado, and then took them to Kansas, at about 1,100 ft. above sea level. Summer or winter no problems. I do trust my powder measurer, but I do check every fifth load for the correct weight.

I do not use ball powders in rifles were a "year around load" is desired. They are just to temp. sensitive in my opinion.

Even without pressure problems velocity, group size, and even point of impact depend to much on the weather with ball powders IMHO.

Well, I was using H380 in 22-250's long before they invented temperature sensitivity. And so I never quit. I do not routinely motor my rifles at top end nor do I routinely let my ammo sit out in the sun. I am working on my second 8# keg of the stuff. I have used it in OK and WY and WV and some other places without problems.
I shoot H335 in my .223's. I've shot a lot of it. I'm still working on my first 8# keg but I'm getting pretty deep in the well. I've never shot any of it at night so I can't say about the fireball. It's the most accurate powder I use in my .223's so I don't know that the fireball would make any difference.
I used H414 in a 7-08 but stopped because I got better accuracy with another powder.
All in all, I like ball powder. It meters well and I haven't noticed any particular lot to lot variations like some have reported. If I didn't like the stuff or I thought something was wrong with it, I certainly wouldn't have started buying it in 8# kegs. And too, try loading up 1000 rounds of Pdog ammo with stick powder.

About the only thing I like about ball powder is the accurate metering.

I used H380 in my 243, and it was very erratic. Had the same problems using 760 in my 30'06. Groups would go to crap when outside temps got too high, yet no pressure signs at all when it was cooler.

I now use Varget in my 22-250AI, and I4350 in my 243 and 30'06. Still using H335 in my 223AI, but never had any problems, other than it being dirty.

We don't have the temperature swings here to worry about high pressure with 90+ degree days. So, I just load and shoot. I think we had three or four days this summer where the temp was in the 80's. No 90 degree days. All other days were in the 70's. Now, it's been in the 30's three days in the last two weeks, and it was 40 this AM. Going shooting later today.
I'd get real interested in that issue if I was going out west prairie dog shooting though.
H-414 is THE powder for my 7x57's, the best. And, it's first cousin, 760, is THE powder for my Custom 250 Savage.
I LOVE the way ball powder meters thru the measure... Speeds up the loading process immensely.

Don

I use Hodgdon Lil'Gun and find it to be a pain to meter. It clumps. If I am not careful I get reduced charges and it is terrible to get out of the cases again (with that small case it is easy to spill a few granules). If the powder has been compressed (which reduces the chance of spilling), it is really hard to get out. But once the powder measure is running smoothly, loads seem to be quite consistent. Fo me, that compressability makes it a top performer in the hornet. It seems to change the butn rate allowing for a higher charge without pressure signs (and the hornet cannot take much pressure).

I shoot H335 and H322 in my 223, 6x45 and I love H414 in the 7x57..I have never had a hint of a problem...I think some folks either don't have a working knowlege of handloading or they just make up crap!!

Ray, take your working knowledge and try it with H-414 in your 7x57 in 90*F and then 10*F. Let me know the results.

In my own experience, for some years I owned residences simultaneously in both northern Alberta and Scottsdale, Arizona. I used ball powders in both 120+ Phoenix temps and -40 F below zero Alberta temps and never had any problems with either. I guess that is a benefit of using moderate loads.

Get some Ramshot powder.

First off, Welcome Aboard! Always nice to have a new Reloader on the Board.

quote:

Originally posted by gofast:
...Some posts warned of erratic ball powder performance related to ambient temperature.

Hey gofast, That can be true for Extruded Powders as well.

quote:

..Is it worth all the trouble to work up loads using H380 and 414 considering these issues?

It is for me, but I'm not currently loading for a 22-250. If I was, I'd probably try to be using H380, BL-C2 and H4895 with a 55-60gr Bullet.

quote:

Like everybody else, I'd like to be able to count on my loads over a fairly wide temperature swing. Am I over reacting?

I'd say you might be, but it depends on how close to MAX you are loading. I like a SAFE MAX Load so I get the proper performance from the rifle. But, I have had some Powders get very erratic as I approached a SAFE MAX and they were primarily the "RL" Powders which are Extruded. Many people never see the same thing though.

quote:

Should I stick with stick?

Since you have this concern, there is an easy way around it. Develop a good load with both Ball and Extruded Powders. Shoot them at the temperature extremes you are faced with and see how well they do. Which ever one does the best for you, you are ready to go.

If you load to the upper limit in cooler weather, you can expect higher Pressure Indications when it is really hot.

I use both Ball and Extruded Powders. There is only the tiniest of chances I'd ever be out Hunting below 40deg - don't like the miserable cold weather that some folks enjoy. But, I have Hunted with the same Loads at 122-125deg and never gave them a thought about being erratic.

Best of luck to you.

I don't like H335 for anything, H380 is my favorite powder for the 22-250, H414 is my pick for my 7x57. The only ball powders i had trouble with were 748 and H335.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveM70:
Ray, take your working knowledge and try it with H-414 in your 7x57 in 90*F and then 10*F. Let me know the results.

I worked up my load for my 300 Win. Mag. in 100 plus degree weather here in Arizona and hunted in 15 degree weather during a late elk season; never had a problem.
Paul B.

Thanks for all the responses! Most of your experiences fell into three categories.
1 (tie)- Don't care for ball powders.
2 (tie)- I like them! They work for me.
3 - Back off on pressure, work multiple loads.

Lots of years of valuable experience in this thread. I am of the tribe that prefers to get everything possible from my rifles....just my personal preference. I am currently loading 41.0 - H380 and a 55 gr. Vmax in my 22/250. It groups .5". Hodgdon lists this load on their powder can. I have noticed erratic groups (fliers 1" from the group) and noticeably hotter primer readings when shooting in 100 degree heat. Primers aren't loose but the load appears hotter due to heat. I compared primers from early morning shooting (74 degrees) to mid-afternoon shooting (100 degrees).

I would like to request another opinion from the AR braintrust. If you had to choose only one ball or stick powder for the 22-250 / Swift class rifles that performs well year round (say 30ish degrees > 100ish degrees) with minimal pressure variation, which one would you choose? Thanks again!

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:

quote:

Originally posted by SteveM70:
Ray, take your working knowledge and try it with H-414 in your 7x57 in 90*F and then 10*F. Let me know the results.

I worked up my load for my 300 Win. Mag. in 100 plus degree weather here in Arizona and hunted in 15 degree weather during a late elk season; never had a problem.
Paul B.

And you shouldn't have. Minute of Elk is a little different than the small caliber loads asked about by the original poster.

If you are satisfied with what you get from ball powders then go for it but I will stick with stick.

P.S. Beeman, if I were to work up a load for P-dogs I would probably use ball powder to.

quote:

If you had to choose only one ball or stick powder for the 22-250 / Swift class rifles that performs well year round (say 30ish degrees > 100ish degrees) with minimal pressure variation, which one would you choose?

For ball, Ramshot BigGame.

gofast,

Welcome! I finally ended up with Ramshot Big Game in my 22-250. It shoots 1/2" groups using the Sierra #1365 SBT. The Ramshot powders are not nearly as temperature sensitve as most ball powders. My second and third choices are RL-15 and Varget.

Here is my load for my 22-250:

55 gr. #1365 Sierra SBT
Big Game-39.0 grs.
Win. Brass, CCI BR-2 Primer
2.350†COL
3650 fps.-.5†group

Good Hunting,

Bob

There are three of us that sware by DP86 in the 22-250. I think I have a life time supply, but you can't get it anymore, but from what I read Ramshot Hunter is a near equivalent. Has anyone used the Hunter in the 22-250? roger

Shooting strictly a 22-250, I'd buy another keg of H380.
When you say you like to get "everything you can from your rifles", I assume that means you like to work to the top end of things. In that case, I'd suggest you buy a couple of 6 pack coolers and some of those re-freezerable ice packs and keep you ammo in a little cooler until you're ready to load and fire. And don't let that round sit in the chamber too long before you lite it off. That should apply to both stick and ball powder as neither are totally temp insensitive.

quote:

Originally posted by SteveM70:

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:

quote:

Originally posted by SteveM70:
Ray, take your working knowledge and try it with H-414 in your 7x57 in 90*F and then 10*F. Let me know the results.

I worked up my load for my 300 Win. Mag. in 100 plus degree weather here in Arizona and hunted in 15 degree weather during a late elk season; never had a problem.
Paul B.

And you shouldn't have. Minute of Elk is a little different than the small caliber loads asked about by the original poster.

If you are satisfied with what you get from ball powders then go for it but I will stick with stick.

P.S. Beeman, if I were to work up a load for P-dogs I would probably use ball powder to.

Well, I was addressing whether ball powders were all that temperature sensitive and just used the .300 as on example. Howvwer, I could very easily add the .270 win., 7x57, .243 and the .223 Rem. as examples that were worked up in the summer and used in the winter with no noticable change in either velocity, trajectory or accuracy.
Maybe if temps dropped into the minus figures I might see a change but personally, I try to stay away when it gets that cold. Makes my old bones ache something fierce.
Paul B.

If you can not tell a change in velocity, group size, or point of impact with ball powder and an 85 degree F. change in temp. then you are a happy camper

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:

Maybe if temps dropped into the minus figures I might see a change but personally, I try to stay away when it gets that cold. Makes my old bones ache something fierce.
Paul B.

Paul - you would see some change, but you would with extruded powders too. Believe me, been there, done that.

Talking about shooting when its cool...when I lived in southern Alberta (Calgary), I spent a couple of years as Vice-President of the King's Own Calgary Regiment Military Rifle Association. One of the duties that came with that unpaid glorified title was to run high power (full-bore) matches every Sunday (year around) on the Sarcee Camp's 300 yard through 1,000 yard Palomino Ranges.

We shot whether snowing, hailing, or whatever. Have often shot prone matches in -25 F below zero weather. You'd be surprised how well you can shoot when you're laying there with a nice soft snow bank below you for support, and falling snow as a wind indicator. Might also be surprised how good a hot tea tastes after every relay at each distance. Would usually have at least 18 or more competitors on the line every Sunday whatever the weather and temp.

You get used to it. (It's a "dry" cold.) It was lying on the crushed granite directly in the sun at Black Canyon Range in Arizona with the temps 100+ and wearing a tight-fitting leather shooting jacket and sweat shirt that used to bug me......

quote:

Originally posted by Bob in TX:
gofast,

Welcome! I finally ended up with Ramshot Big Game in my 22-250. It shoots 1/2" groups using the Sierra #1365 SBT. The Ramshot powders are not nearly as temperature sensitve as most ball powders. My second and third choices are RL-15 and Varget.

Here is my load for my 22-250:

55 gr. #1365 Sierra SBT
Big Game-39.0 grs.
Win. Brass, CCI BR-2 Primer
2.350†COL
3650 fps.-.5†group

Good Hunting,

Bob

Bob,

Good info.
For my 22-250, 32.6 grains of Benchmark with the same bullet you're using, delivered outstanding accuracy, closely folowed by Varget. Didn't test RL-15. Three shots into a 1/4" group at 100 yards using a 20x scope for load developing.
Bullets seated .010 off lands.
Don

In the 1970's I shot thousands of warmish .308 loads with H335 at metallic silhouettes. Even in Arizona and south Texas in the summer I never detected any problems in hot weather. Maybe our ignorance of temperature sensivity protected us?