quote:

I have talked to have expressed.

Your good at leaving out complete statements aren't you.

There is a BIG difference between the Majority of ALL .223 users, and the Majority of all the .223 users I HAVE PERSONALLY TALKED TO.

And, since you have a problem with comprehension I will do this in a way you might be able to understand.

While the .223 CAN and DOES kill deer,I BELIEVE that there are BETTER CHOICES!!!!!!!!


That is the exact same thing I have been saying in EVERYONE of these BS discussions.

I believe that constitutes a commitment in most peoples books.

quote:

Originally posted by taylorce1:
My biggest problem is that CHC posted that the .223 wasn't good for trophy animals. My question is why do we treat "does/fawns/culls" differently? You can't tell my daughter that these weren't trophies.

They were sure as hell were trophy memories to me. I'd never saddle my daughter with a rifle/cartridge that I didn't trust or wouldn't use to get the job done.

IMO the biggest mistake folks make with the 223 is to put it in a child's hands for deer hunting. It's a marginal cartridge for the experts. The problem with the cartridge is not in the cartridge itself, but the fact that people over rate it, and use it in ways that push the probability of failure.

Why would anyone, especially an experienced and reasonable deer hunter, expect a child to understand the limits of the 223 when a trusted adult puts it in her hands as a tool? I thought that I didn't understand such behavior, but in reality it's easy to understand. It's one of the inherent flaws of the 223, and it's a human flaw in judgment, which is why the 223 should be outlawed across the nation for deer hunting. If a child can't handle a real deer rifle/cartridge, then he/she isn't ready to hunt deer.

I've seen experienced hunters overestimate the cartridge and their ability with it, more than once. My buddy in TX got one of the AR15 223 toys as a gift from his sons, and he quickly got to thinking it was infallible, and with it so was he. Those tiny little groups at the range are deceiving. One bright afternoon he joined me in the Texas style stand where I was watching for hogs over a corn feeder. Two does walked out on the edge about 200 yards away. When they got about 150 yds out, he shot the biggest one in the neck, and she went down, but soon began to flop. I suggested he shoot again, but he equally insisted she was done. His confidence in the cartridge and his ability was deceiving him. After dark, we went to retrieve the doe and she was gone. We could hear her thrashing through the brush, but again his faux confidence lost the deer. He believed in his "tracking" dog, which was a joke to everyone but him. His repeated voice encouragement and the dog drove the deer deeper into the thick stuff and he gave up.

I'm sure many will say shot placement, etc., was the problem, and you are right. If the shot had been perfect, the doe wouldn't have gotten up. And the kicker is that he would have affirmed his overconfidence in the cartridge until next time. Failure in inevitable with the 223 - it's just a matter of time - until that less than perfect shot occurs, the wrong angle, or hitting a twig before the deer, or any number of factors.

To his credit he quit using the 223 for deer and hogs after that incident. Now he uses a 6.5 Grendel upper that I sold him at a buddy price, and he is super happy with it. He talks it up so much that he has several others using it now, a Grendel of their own, including his sons, and they all are very happy with the results. I'm having an upper built now for a friend. Last year, he took a nice trophy buck in Arkansas with it, and the shot was typical broadside, high on the heart and through the lungs. Also typical is how far the deer ran - about fifty yards, then down for keeps. The Hornady factory load, 223 gr SST, exited. Perfect. He has also shot hogs and several coyotes 300 to over 400 yds with it - one shot DRT.

If a child can use a 223, he/she can certainly use a 6.5 Grendel. The recoil and blast are mild compared to the 308 or even the 30-30 for example, and in my estimation even less than the 243.

My question is why would someone let a child use the 223, when there are better options such as the 6.5 Grendel? I think the answer is simply poor judgment.

KB

KB, before the .223 came along I knew a lot of folks here in this part of Texas that started their wives/kids/grandkids out with the .222 Rem.

It was cheap, readily available, guns were lighter, less recoil and muzzle blast.

Over much of this area 100 yard shots were long shots and they took the time to let those kids and wives do a good bit of bench work to get used to the gun and how to properly aim and what shots to take and which ones to pass.

My problem with the .223 arises from the OCCASIONAL hunter buying one, not spending enough time shooting it under any circumstance, and not having enough actual knowledge to know a doable shot from one that is beyond their capabilities or the limitations of the gun they are using.

Anyone can sing the praises of ANY caliber all they want, but unless they also mention the limitations of the caliber, a neophyte hunter just like a neophyte, community organizer/president can and will mess things up due to a lack of knowledge/ability.

I just believe that for the AVERAGE hunter there are better choices.

CHC--On 6Nov you posted to Taylorforce You sir are in a very small minority------ then on 7 Nov same subject you posted I did not say majority.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

I just believe that for the AVERAGE hunter there are better choices.

For once perhaps we agree.

IMO, a child, especially under 12 years old, is not the AVERAGE hunter. I don't know exactly what the AVERAGE hunter really is, but I'm sure a child of age 7 - 10 is NOT.

I'm saying there are better choices for the mythical AVERAGE hunter, and especially for the non-average hunter, such as a child. children are especially vulnerable to the limitations of the 223, and are practically totally dependent on the judgment of the sponsoring adult. If the adult used good judgment in the first place, there would be no 223 involved.

KB

KB--You omitted the best part of the story from when you originally posted it. The neck shot doe was down about 200 yards away and was bleating and flailing around for a long time. The humane thing of going to it and giving a finishing shot was not done because the terrain was too rough to drive to it in the golf cart you were hunting from.

KB stated if the adult used good judgement in the first place, there would be no .223 involved. Taylorforce when that deer your daughter shot comes back to life you can blame it on your poor judgement.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
CHC--On 6Nov you posted to Taylorforce You sir are in a very small minority------ then on 7 Nov same subject you posted I did not say majority.

I'm working from a smart phone so it's kind of hard to copy and paste things and quote CHC correctly. Thanks for pointing that out, as CHC stated he's talked to a lot of .223 hunters on many forums and in person. So I don't know how I could fail to comprehend what he meant by majority. He likes to back pedal when he gets caught in his own trap.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
KB stated if the adult used good judgement in the first place, there would be no .223 involved. Taylorforce when that deer your daughter shot comes back to life you can blame it on your poor judgement.

Thanks again that last sentence made me chucle!

You make up stuff and embellish, which is true to character for a person who uses cheap bulk varmint bullets in a 223 for deer hunting.

How's that 100% success ratio going for you - for real and in your imagination - oh I forgot, you don't know the difference.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
KB--You omitted the best part of the story from when you originally posted it. The neck shot doe was down about 200 yards away and was bleating and flailing around for a long time. The humane thing of going to it and giving a finishing shot was not done because the terrain was too rough to drive to it in the golf cart you were hunting from.

I thought this was a thread on the 223 but KB turns every thread in to an infomercial for the 6.5 Grendel.

KB--Which part is made up or embellished? You in fact stated on another thread that the downed doe was not finished off because the terrain was too rough for your golf cart. What a pathetic situation.
My participation of deer with .223 continues to be 100% success. Thanks for asking.

Coming in late - I think a .223 is good for deer, especially the small CA deer. Howver, since my time off is limited and I have to travel at least 2 or 3 hours (if not a whole day or more), and if I am going on a hunt out of state, I will take a bigger rifle. Personally, I feel the .223 should be limited in range, and I might have to take a pretty long shot in the mountains. If that is the case, I want a .25 cal at higher speed or a bigger bullet just in case I have to try a poke at a 250 lb deer at 450 yards. Some of my hunts, I am after deer and elk.

Good Lord guys,
This thread was an absolute JOKE.
Hasn't this topic been thrashed enough?
I was expecting to give about 8 guys a chuckle and the thread to disappear...

Daniel77--You aint seen nothing yet. Yours was just a question. Wait until the actual doing it posts start coming in.

Daniel, you have been around long enough to know that this is one of those "Dead Horse" issues, that never changes any persons opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:
Good Lord guys,
This thread was an absolute JOKE.
Hasn't this topic been thrashed enough?
I was expecting to give about 8 guys a chuckle and the thread to disappear...

You drug out the horse for them to beat.

"You drug out the horse for them to beat". Deadhorseconsulting.

Yes it will, and cleanly with a well placed shot. I've used the .223 many times in Africa on Bontebok, Blesbok, Impala and smaller antelope but normally I use a .280, .50 muzzle loader or 12 ga w/slugs depending upon the area and State I'm hunting in. A lot depends on the shot placement like most projectiles vs game.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

X2, yet again !!!!
I wonder which of the topics between "this one", "what's the best rifle cleaning technique" or is "barrel break-in a good thing" are the absolute kings of the crap stirring for no real reason topics when the archives could pull up 26 pages of answers to any of those questions. "Boring-Boring!!!