quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
in my 45 years of shooting owning and working on 700 Remingtons, the only ones that were "unsafe" were the ones . . . mis adjusted at the factory.
Jerry

The advocate for the defendant having admitted that the defendant allowed defective products to leave its factory, the plaintiff rests and asks for a directed verdict.

Nice try Stonecreek, that's not what I said, and if you are going to use a quote use the whole thing, (pretty attorneyish). Look in my opinion, like hunter safety any mechanical thing can fail, but the Walker Trigger, in all those millions of rifles, has been examplary and safe. Anything can fail, and until the MSNBC expose' on Remington, I had never heard of a failure, except where the owner messed with it. I think we have beat this one to death. You've had your say and I've had mine. Time to move on.


Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

Ever heard of a PH named Alan Lowe from Zimbabwe?

Most hunters nowdays have not...because he is dead...but, he was one of the great old time PH's with a proper Rhodesian hunting upbringing...a truly great professional.

Well...he was as experienced as they come with ele. But, he was killed in Chewore South by ele on October 4, 1989.

That particular day...he was carrying a BRNO with the backwards saftey.

When they investigated the remains...they found the rifle fully loaded with a round in the chamber but had not been fired and was ON SAFETY...draw your own conclusion.

There is a plaque mounted on a baobab at the site which was along the edge of the escarpment at the base of the hills.

Hmm, and the likelihood of being mauled to death by a rampant squirrel is what?

Seriously?

In case you are incapable of comprehension...I'll explain.

Stonecreek was making the case that often times safety use was from long-term use of one system and when not purposely thinking of the safety situation that one could, by habit, put the gun in fire mode when one wanted safe thereby rendering an accidental discharge more likely. I was just corroborating his line of reasoning by citing an incidence where the reverse "probably" happened. NOT stating that one would be in a situation where you would be stopping a charge with a Hornet!

So...Seriously?...back at you!

Problem is, you don't even know if the safety is to blame at all. Pure speculation.

Sorta like saying that a hunter is found dead after falling out of his tree stand. And, since he was carrying a Rem 700, the trigger must be to blame.

I love these bash the CZ safety threads. I have probably every kind of safety imaginable on my rifles. Simple rule to follow is that when I flip the safety to safe, fire is in the opposite direction.

Did I say it WAS due to the safety??? NO!!! I said draw your own conclusion. But...it was a real event.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:


Did I say it WAS due to the safety??? NO!!! I said draw your own conclusion. But...it was a real event.

Maybe not, but you sure as heck implied it was the safety.

The one example given about the pig hunt was admittedly unfamiliar with the rifle. Reminds me of rental cars, one should familiarize themselves with the controls before attempting to drive the car.

If you cannot master the concept, ok, no worries.

I haven't ever had a problem with a CZ safety on any of the CZ's I own ranging from .17 HMR's to .22 Hornets, to .416 Rigby's.

If they bother you that much, I suppose you are right in not purchasing one.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:


Did I say it WAS due to the safety??? NO!!! I said draw your own conclusion. But...it was a real event.

Maybe not, but you sure as heck implied it was the safety.

The one example given about the pig hunt was admittedly unfamiliar with the rifle. Reminds me of rental cars, one should familiarize themselves with the controls before attempting to drive the car.

If you cannot master the concept, ok, no worries.

I haven't ever had a problem with a CZ safety on any of the CZ's I own ranging from .17 HMR's to .22 Hornets, to .416 Rigby's.

If they bother you that much, I suppose you are right in not purchasing one.

Everybody whom knew Alan and the facts of the event thought it was the safety that got him. He had routinely carried a different rifle.

WalkerTrigger/700 Remingtons and CZ'S well they must just be POS'S but I like the smell so I'll keep using them.

I actually have a couple of CZ's and a few 700's and 722's. I like them fine too. Was just saying...there is some merit to what Stonecreek says about the CZ safeties and habit.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I actually have a couple of CZ's and a few 700's and 722's. I like them fine too. Was just saying...there is some merit to what Stonecreek says about the CZ safeties and habit.

There is some merit and it would be of greater importance if more than 2 or 3 people agreed with his stance, FS

quote:

There is some merit and it would be of greater importance if more than 2 or 3 people agreed with his stance, FS

No one inside the Vatican agreed with Galileo that the Earth revolved around the sun, but that did not change either the truth or importance of that fact.

Neither does the circumstance that only a handful of people read, much less participate, in a thread like this change the central premise that a machine which operates backward to all of the other machines like it in the world presents a hazard.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

There is some merit and it would be of greater importance if more than 2 or 3 people agreed with his stance, FS

No one inside the Vatican agreed with Galileo that the Earth revolved around the sun, but that did not change either the truth or importance of that fact.

Neither does the circumstance that only a handful of people read, much less participate, in a thread like this change the central premise that a machine which operates backward to all of the other machines like it in the world presents a hazard.

So then, driving in the US or Britain, one should be banned because it is contrary to the way it is done in the other country? Half the world dives on the right, the other half on the left, cars are built accordingly. Drivers are required to LEARN how to drive said cars.

Shooters should learn to operate their firearm & be proficient before heading afield.

Despite the "dangerous safety" it is equipped with, my cz527 Hornet is one of my favorite rifles. Scarey accurate.

And Galileo's theory that the Earth revolved around the sun was certainly "backward" at the time but has come to be accepted by most despite how dangerous such thinking was at the time.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

There is some merit and it would be of greater importance if more than 2 or 3 people agreed with his stance, FS

No one inside the Vatican agreed with Galileo that the Earth revolved around the sun, but that did not change either the truth or importance of that fact.

Neither does the circumstance that only a handful of people read, much less participate, in a thread like this change the central premise that a machine which operates backward to all of the other machines like it in the world presents a hazard.

So then, driving in the US or Britain, one should be banned because it is contrary to the way it is done in the other country? Half the world dives on the right, the other half on the left, cars are built accordingly. Drivers are required to LEARN how to drive said cars.

Shooters should learn to operate their firearm & be proficient before heading afield.

Despite the "dangerous safety" it is equipped with, my cz527 Hornet is one of my favorite rifles. Scarey accurate.

And Galileo's theory that the Earth revolved around the sun was certainly "backward" at the time but has come to be accepted by most despite how dangerous such thinking was at the time.

I can tell you for a fact that after having PH's stay with me and loaning them cars...your analogy PROVES Stonecreek's point!

Cal,
Back to you!

Why don't you but one of Baily Bradshaw's falling block doubles in .22 Hornet??? I think he has one built and ready for sale now.

quote:

So then, driving in the US or Britain, one should be banned because it is contrary to the way it is done in the other country?

An imperfect example since there is no world-wide established convention on whether to use left-hand or right-hand drive, with about 2/3rds using right and 1/3 using left; on the other hand, with safeties it is 99.9% forward and .1% backward.

Nonetheless, the side of the road one is accustomed to is an excellent illustration of why safeties should be uniform. I visited Jamaica when I was in my twenties, young, quick, adaptable, and not accustomed to a half-century of driving on the right side of the road. I rented a car and found that driving on the left was a huge challenge which took constant attention. Despite that attention, I had several close calls when (as with the quick use of a safety) instinct took over and I dodged right instead of left.

I never attempted driving on a visit to Australia, but found over and over again that it was hazardous to cross the street because instinctively a pedestrian from a right-hand country looks left first before stepping off of the curb -- which is wrong since a car driving on your side of the street comes from the right! All of my companions had this same problem, and one came close to being struck as he stepped into the crossing looking to his left. He wasn't dumb or careless -- he was just looking in the direction that decades of crossing the street taught him to look.


I can't tell you how many times all of us attempted to get into the driver's seat instead of the passenger's seat on a hunt in Namibia.

Then there was Japan . . .

From the time a child is first taught to hold a gun he or she is told to make sure the safety is moved to the rear, then to slide or rock it forward to fire. This is drummed into a young person from early on, reinforced in hunter safety training, and practiced all of one's lifetime. Simply warning a shooter that, "Oh, by the way, this rifle's safety works backwards so forget everything that's been drummed into you all of your life and "learn" how to work this safety, then when you go back to shooting any other of the dozens of guns in your life, just unlearn what you learned with this CZ and everything will be fine".

That just ain't the way it works. We're animals which have learned muscle memory and will always respond in a certain way, particularly when the action is quick and there is stress involved. Try rearranging the keyboard on your computer and see how quickly you "learn" the new places to put your fingers for the proper letter. Swap places with the brake and accelerator then drive down a California freeway. Sign your name with your left hand. Shoot a shotgun from the opposite shoulder. Tell time on a clock which moves the opposite direction. Read a book upside down. Recite the alphabet backwards. Stop a charging elephant with a rifle with a backward safety. All you have to do to accomplish any of these things is "learn" how to do it. Shame on any stupid, intellectually challenged person who can't learn such simple tasks. Such persons shouldn't be allowed out of a padded room.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:

Yupper!

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:

Yupper!

I just happen to know Stonecreek personally. Besides the fact that anyone with 2 brain cells to run together can read his reloading posts and KNOW the man is pretty astute...I can tell you for a fact...he is far from a troll.


........z1r.........Jerry Eden

The Remington trigger law suit was based on a lawyer in the front seat of a vehicle being shot in the back by a teenager in the back seat.
I can think of no worse combination for any product.
Think of it
A lawyer stupid enough to allow his teenage son to get in the back seat of his vehicle with a loaded gun. Who allows a teenager to sit behind him with a loaded gun?
Then after being paralyzed it is not the lawyer's fault, it is not the kid's fault - but it is the rifle's fault?
If you present a big enough sob story to a jury that is the verdict you might receive.
For decades the trigger on a M700 was widely regarded at the the best available. Then there a few law suits and then the Remington trigger became a pariah.
The same thing could have happened to a M70. The most dangerous trigger I have ever had came from the factory on a M70. The trigger pull on that rifle was about 10 oz. I am sure that lawyer could have made his injury the fault of that rifle also.

quote:

Originally posted by Fasteel:
CP
A used CZ 527 hornet is a very good rifle to try and find,likely shoot better than a rifle that may have seen several thousands of rounds in the last 60 years, and who knows how well the barrel was cleaned and cared for. FS

Additionally, the CZ or any modern variant will come ready for scope use. Many of the older rifles were not scope friendly.

Carpetman has a point too. I have started to load my .223's with bulk 34 grain bullets and a dose of Unique to approximate 22 lr performance. The load was meant for cast bullets but I don't cast anymore. Substituting the Jacketed bullet has worked just as well. The old Lyman manuals are a good reference for this.

Cost of these loads is roughly equal to the cost of 22 LR's at $60 a brick.

We could eliminate all of this arguing over gun makes and their apparent faults by sticking to the topic.

The. 22 TCM looks like an interesting alternative to the hornet. Right now all thats available in rifles is one option from Rock River Armory, or the custom route.

Hey, so glad I clicked on this thread to learn all about available rifles in 22 Hornet :-)

ledvm: ...I can tell you for a fact...he is far from a troll. Maybe, but he isn't far from an attorney now is he, How many Remington or CZ'S has he or you for that matter and had trouble with? End of story!!

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
ledvm: ...I can tell you for a fact...he is far from a troll. Maybe, but he isn't far from an attorney now is he, How many Remington or CZ'S has he or you for that matter and had trouble with? End of story!!

Jerry,
I really don't want to argue with you at all. You guys here on AR are like family. That said...Stonecreek is a friend. He is not an attorney. He is a very astute reloader and shooter. Hell...I argue with him myself all the time over "stuff" but...he ain't no troll. I see him on here all the time helping folks out with wisdom and knowledge.

I don't know if he has had problems with CZ's or 700's you'll have to ask him. But I can say that what ever he answers...you can take to the bank as the honest truth. Myself...I have not. I just was saying...there is some merit to what he says.

Please have a good day.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Eden:
ledvm: ...I can tell you for a fact...he is far from a troll. Maybe, but he isn't far from an attorney now is he, How many Remington or CZ'S has he or you for that matter and had trouble with? End of story!!

I own two Brno .22 Hornets (the forerunner of the CZ 527). I described earlier how I never move the safety from the "fire" position and simply raise the bolt if I have chambered a round and decide not to shoot (the prairie dog ran in its hole). So, by definition, I've never had "trouble" with a backward safety since I don't use such a safety.

I own one Remington 700 with the "old" trigger. I took the late Malmberg's (Malm posted here for years and was a first class gunsmith) advice seriously and keep the trigger fastidiously clean and free of oil/dust, as well as regularly going through the drill of putting it on safe (on an empty chamber), pulling the trigger hard, then testing to see if the sear holds when flipping from "safe: to "fire". So I am among the lucky 99+ percent who have never had any trouble with the old Remington trigger. The fact that there is something more than 0% who have not be so lucky is an avoidable tragedy -- which, due to the efforts of a few good folks like Malm, will never happen to the owners of the new Remington trigger.

Malm suffered the slings and arrows of many oblivious shooters and was the bane of the gun manufacturers who feared anyone who would expose a defect. But he undoubtedly saved lives and saved the shooting sports from even more black eyes in the court of public opinion.

I own only 2 CZ 527 Americans. There were out of the box quality problems. Perhaps a total of 1 1/2 hrs. honing and stoning total for both took care of the problems.
FYI*** When Stonecreek speaks I listen. He is, IMHO, truly astute over a wide range of firearms information and seams to have the experience and ability to communicate to back up his postings.
Personally, having shot a Hornet or two, I have no attraction for the round. roger

quote:

Personally, having shot a Hornet or two, I have no attraction for the round.

Bartsche: It's a tempremental little round with a case which is way too thin and usually fits the chambers it goes in with enough space left over that it needs styrofoam packing peanuts to take up the slack.

But that's what makes it so rewarding when you get it to perform for you. When you shoot an all-holes-touching group with the little bugger you're hooked and will keep trying to do it over and over again. In my opinion the mistake many people make is in trying to hotrod the little pissant. If you want .223 performance, then use a .223. Keep the Hornet down around 2700 fps with a real 40 grain bullet like a Hornady Vmax, or especially a Nosler Varmageddon plastic tip (not one of those pitiful made-for-Hornet bullets that are as wide as they are long) and you'll find that it's a true 200+ yard varminter. The mild report, non-existent recoil, and the fact that a pound of powder will last it for years all make it an entertaining little spitfire to shoot.

It's too bad that there aren't more miniature actions like the old Kimber 82 available for it and cartridges like it.

Z1R--I certainly agree that the Lyman Manual is a very good source for cast bullet reloading data. Cast bullets being much softer, develop much less pressure so I would question substituting jacketed bullets. Could be great for some loads, others not????

My old 44th edition Lyman reloading manual lists 3.5 to a max of 5 grains Unique powder for both the 45 and 50 grain cast bullet in a hornet. That's 1400-2000 rounds per pound of powder. Recent years I have read guys now have to buy wheelweights, but I was always able to get them free. Gas checks use to be cheap nut now days they seem to be 24K is reason I quit using them. All in all some cheap shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Z1R--I certainly agree that the Lyman Manual is a very good source for cast bullet reloading data. Cast bullets being much softer, develop much less pressure so I would question substituting jacketed bullets. Could be great for some loads, others not????

As always, start low and work up. I have found that the pistol powder loads are very accurate with the jacketed bullets. The jacketed bullets I use are lighter than their cast counterparts.

Yeah, around here at least, casting is not as economical as it once was. I haven't been able to find any lead/wheelweights, etc to cast from. Ironic that when I lived in CA I had no trouble finding casting materials.

I have been using 6 grains 4759, with the Lyman 50 grain and a gas check. Works fine. I am sure with 4759, there are reduced loads with jacketed bullets if one wants.

Jerry

I've used 6.7 grains of Blue Dot under a 35 grain Hornady V-max for about 2400 fps. This load yields surprising accuracy and is in the .22 WMR class in terms of power. You'd be surprised how the little V-max will divide a prairie dog into two ragged halves, even at this low velocity.

Stonecreek,
Did you revisit Lil Gun??? And if so...what were your results?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Stonecreek,
Did you revisit Lil Gun??? And if so...what were your results?

Yes, and I think I posted something on that a while back. I had found extreme velocity variations with Lil Gun loads and had just about given up on it (although the same batch of Lil Gun did extremely well in some 300 grain .45 Colt +p loads).

Eventually, I bought a second canister of Lil Gun and gave that a try. The difference between the two lots was remarkable, with extreme velocity spreads coming down in the same range as other powders like AA-1680. The second batch of Lil Gun also yielded somewhat higher velocities than other powders by 100 fps or so at what appear to be moderate and sustainable pressures.

I'm accustomed to different lots of powder varying slightly in burning rate, but I haven't before experienced such a stark contrast in a characteristic like velocity spreads. This causes me to be a bit nervous about "which" Lil Gun I might get in the next canister. Fortunately, at 12.5 grains per round that pound of the "good" Lil Gun will load 560 rounds of Hornet, which takes me quite a ways down the road.

My Hornet lives Lil' Gun. I found that with the light bullets it isn't near as consistent as it is with heavier bullets.

13 Grains of Lil Gun with the Hornady 35 Grain V-Max gives me the best groups, but not a lot better than 1680, which I also like. Haven't tried Blue Dot in the Hornet, but I may with cast bullets, as the V-Max's are too expensive, in MO, to shoot reduced. Blue dot is accurate in 223 with 50-55 grain bullets if used around 10-11 grains, but that is another subject, and we have already high jacked enough of this thread, LOL!

Jerry

The secret to accuracy with the .22 Hornet is using the right cases. In this country the Hornet is regarded as a plinking/short range varmint caliber, but in Germany it is used as a target caliber for so called "hunter competition", which allows any centerfire caliber. As a result, German factory loads for the Hornet are very accurate and Hornet brass is very uniform.

I have a friend who referees the kind of competition mentioned above, and after one such, the range is littered with once fired Hornet brass. He used to sweep it up and send it to me. I have to add that this was some years ago, and Hornet brass may be more in demand for reloading now.

My last Hornet was a Model 70 that had the barrel shortened to 20 inches. It spoiled me to ever having another Hornet if it can't be a Model 70 or 54 carbine and I can't afford either. I would say the CZ is appealing though safety and all. I have a Brno 602ZKK in 375 and a CZ550 in 416 Rigby. Have used both in Africa on dangerous game (Elephant,Leopard) and did not have a problem remembering which I was using. But then I have owned and used Model 12's with the cross safety in the trigger guard,the M1 with the safety in front of guard bow,the TCR Aristocrat that had the damdest safety I ever used,the 99Savage in the rear of the bottom tang that also locked the lever,a Model 71 that had a half cock notch on the hammer, a Merkel 470 that had a top tang slide safety,My Whitworth 458 has a sliding side safety, My custom 375 with the Westley Richards 98 action has a turnover wing safety, my Mdl 70's have Mdl70 types. All different and I have absolutely no problem with any of them. Incidentally my Brno 602 was Jon Speeds last rifle when he was a game warden and I don't know he had any trouble with it at least he didn't warn me about it. I have never really owned many 700's so can't speak to that but I can't wallk and chew gum,primarily because my father hated people chewing gum and would never let us have any but I think if I put my mind to it I could.

Find a good used Walther KKJ and don't look back.
Mine shoots MOA with almost everything I feed it.

As I said, mine is a factory carbine with a very low SN, and not real fussy about ammunition. A case full of AA1680 and about anybody's 40gr bullet is a 1moa load out to about 150yds.

Scoop it full drag a credit card across the top to level it, and compress with the bullet.

I saw the elderly gentleman I got it from (his father purchased it new), at the last gun show. He was killing me with the notion that he had another 4-digit M70 that was a Hornet rifle, with 24" barrel. His father had Vickery convert it to 22R Lovell. He's invited me out to the ranch to shoot it and discuss where I will come up with $1200 for it and dies and brass.

Rich

Don't forget the Win. mod 54, it was made in a HOrnet...I had a couple do Savage mod. 219 break open single shots in 22 HOrnet, customized one with a quarter rib, Talley rings and peep sight and a 4X Leuplold Alaskan, French walnut stock withegg cheek piece talley grip cap and Bisen butt plate..It was little beauty with the barrel cirumsized to 18 inches..Naturally some guy had to have it at an offer I wasn't capable of turning down..

Today if I wanted a Horned I would opt for a Win mod 53 and have it modified to a 22 Hornet Ackley IMP to keep it form getting headspace as some of the HOrnets have done due to case specs causing set back, the Imp version eliminates that...same for the Little Savage bolt guns.

CZ makes a nice HOrnet also as does Kimber (or did)

No lever action Hornets, best you can do with a Savage is the 22-250 if you can find one..

Always custom rifles to be had in any caliber.