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Gents: This is a new area for me so I need some info. I would like an older .22 Hornet--say pre WWII. Can you tell me what is out there? Win 54 or 70 in Hornet? How about old lever guns? Savage? Etc. With the price of .22 rim fire ammo perhaps I should buy a Hornet and reload. RF ammo here in AK varies between 60 and 90$ per brick at the tag sales (whoops, gun shows). Thanks for looking. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | ||
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23-D Savage, and Model 43 Winchester. But you might also consider a new CZ, they are tack drivers, and with the prices some of these guys want for Model 43'S & Model 70'S it might be a better choice. If you can find a 23-D that is in good shape and unmessed with it would be a good one also, as prices are usually 250-400. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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CP A used CZ 527 hornet is a very good rifle to try and find,likely shoot better than a rifle that may have seen several thousands of rounds in the last 60 years, and who knows how well the barrel was cleaned and cared for. FS | |||
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cal pappas-- You mentioned replacing .22 rimfire with the hornet to save ammo costs. Take it one step further and cast your own bullets to reload. I've never had a hornet, but my experience with cast .22 bullets has been, I couldn't get my .223 to shoot them. Both my .22-250 and couple of .222's shot them great. Those two and especially the .222 seemed it was hard to find something they didn't shoot. I was using the RCBS 58 grain mold which was designed for a gas check. They seemed to shoot equally well without the gas check. 58 grain bullet around 2000-2200 fps. Great on jackrabbits. I too like the CZ. | |||
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I agree with Carpetman, cast bullets are great in some rifles. I always gas check in rifles, and right now I am shooting a Lyman 50 grain bullet, gas checked, with 6 grains of IMR4759, Great for Squirrels, just don't hit them in the body. Some of the older rifles, won't shoot lead bullets, probably becuase of a worn bore, Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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Thanks for your input, gentlemen. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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I have a first year of production model 70 Winchester.. ita a shooter, not collector... the rear ring has been drilled/tapped... and stock had a recoil pad added at 1 time...I paid $1300 for it about 6 yrs ago.. when I first shot it, I was using modern handloads that a friend had loaded for hios savage... it shot like crap... like an 18" group at 50 yds.. changed scopes...still the same... then it dawned on me that the diameter of early hornets was .224... bought a box of factory Winchester 45 gr softpoints... the gun settled down to a 1.5 moa shooter.... a friend bought an "old gun" at a pawn shop... for $185.... it turned out to be an original model 54...i'd like to have it too.... go big or go home ........ DSC-- Life Member NRA--Life member DRSS--9.3x74 r Chapuis | |||
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Another alternative is the Ruger 77/22H. Early models had real problems with accuracy, but Ruger seems to have fixed that and later ones are shooting just fine. The action is a strong one and sized appropriately for the Hornet, and the stock lines are classic and appealing. Best of all, its safety works like all of the rest of the guns in god's green world with forward "fire" and rearward "safe". The otherwise excellent CZ is, for reasons no one can understand, dangerously backward to this. | |||
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Dear Mr. C, #1). .22 Hornet was originally a black powder cartridge, .22 WCF. 45 gr lead bullet I think. Point, the case is not the stoutest. The .221 would be more suited to modern performance. You satisfied with the lower expectations, fine. #2). Rifles. Lots of single shots. Yes, a few bolts. Springfield. Win. Savage. The cheap Savage 340, 540 worked pretty good, but not solid like a mauser or competition grade. #3). Been my experience you pay about the same price for a primer at retail as a .22 long rifle. Hornet will give you a bunch more performance but savings can be a "wash." Beats .22 Mag consistently price wise. #4). As suggested, you cast bullets you save bunches and have wide variety compared to rimfire. Corbin will do a .224 base gard... not cheap but less mess that lubed bullets. #5). I would lean toward the switch barrel rifles/pistols for a platform. T/C of course. Eabco.com has a single shot with a barrel installed with locktite. I can be a switch barrel. There are other switch barrels. Luck. Happy Trails. | |||
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You might be able to find a Savage Model 340 in .22 Hornet. Ugly rifles, but good shooters. The down side is that the scope has to be on a side mount, but it works ok. ct | |||
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You know it seems odd to me and the tens of thousands of other folks that own CZ 527 rifles that no one ever has an issue with their safety's............. | |||
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I own a BRNO ZKW 465 .22 Hornet, which is the predecessor to the CZ 527 and has the same backward-working safety. It is a fine little rifle which shoots tiny groups with 40 grain Ballistic Tips and has a double set trigger which is absolutely the cat's whiskers. I NEVER ENGAGE THE SAFETY OR ALLOW ANYONE TO ENGAGE THE SAFETY ON THIS RIFLE. When I take it prairie dog hunting the bolt stays raised until it is time for the shot, and if a shot is not taken the bolt is raised again. Engaging the backward safety with a cartridge in the chamber is asking for an accident when someone, just like turning a nut counterclockwise to loosen it, attempts to manipulate the safety in the direction which they have been taught for CENTURIES to move the safety. I always caution anyone owning or shooting one of these (including the BRNO Fox Model 2, the CZ 452, and others like them) to NEVER attempt to utilize or depend on the safety. It's like swapping places with the accelerator and brake pedal on your car, which would be fine if cars had started out that way 100+ years ago. | |||
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Cal one of the 2 rifles that ended more life of both fur and foul on our farm when I was a kid-- one was a HK 300 22 mag which I still have,and a Walther KKJ 22 hornet which my brother now has--a great 22 hornet if you can find one. Ed DRSS Member | |||
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A man like you likes style points in a rifle. I got lucky and found an old model 70 22 Hornet Carbine at a gun show. First year production, SN:36xx. Rich | |||
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I get the fact that you feel a need to educate the masses on the pure folly of this mis manufacture on behalf of CZ, and you do an excellent job. What I don't get is the fact that you are the only soul I have ever heard complain about this safety's design. have you ever heard of any gun accidents regarding the CZ safety? Me neither. FS | |||
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If you can swing it, Anschutz makes a great hornet that is very accurate. I had two of the Ruger 77 22 hornets. Both were "dogs" accuracy wise, so I sold them. NRA Patron member | |||
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No, and I don't want anyone I know or care about to be the first. Accidental discharges resulting in human injury due to design flaws are very rare, and compared to many models of guns there are relatively few backward safety BRNO's and CZ's in use. However, if the same number of backward safety CZ's had been sold as flawed Remington 600/700 triggers, then the number of unintended discharge injuries involving CZ's would in all likelihood greatly exceed those which have been demonstrably attributable to the flawed Remington triggers. Accidental deaths and injuries from firearms are a factor that weighs almost as heavily on general public opinion regarding guns as does the criminal misuse of guns. Knowingly building guns with features which make them more prone to unintentional discharge is self-inflicting injury on the shooting industry and shooting enthusiasts. | |||
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My Ruger shoots Hornady 35gr factory ammo very well. The trigger was shabby, I replaced with a Rifle Basix and am happy with it. | |||
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You know another interesting Hornet I just thought of, is the Model 19 Savage. Pretty rare, but neat and very good shooters. As to CZ, I have had a couple, liked them and never had a problem with the safety. It's kinda like some of the old LC Smith shotguns, with their auto and manual safety you had to pay attention to how you use it. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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Stonecreek is not anywhere close to alone on his complaint of the backwards safety on CZ's. I have read that complaint numerous, numerous times. That is THE reason I haven't bought one in .204 Ruger. I like the fit and finish and everything else about the CZ's. I did ask my late gunsmith about converting that feature, He told me he'd check what was available from Bronell's and get back to me. He had either a stroke or a heart attack and dropped dead in his shop before he got back to me. I do agree a person would need to pay attention, but could easily do what is natural which for me would be pushing the safety forward for fire. I also agree that it is like reversing the brake pedal and accelerator. You know they are reversed but someone else may not. I put it in the category of reloading pointed bullets for a bolt action 30-30---you know but someone else may not. | |||
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Stonecreek, I missed the part about" flawed" Remington Triggers. You must be an attorney. I tell you I have had 700 Remington's since 1969, and all of them have had "Walker" triggers. The only time there is a problem with one of them, is when some yea hoo messes with them. Properly tuned adjusted, they are excellent. That is unless you are Stonecreek or MSNBC. A good example, is one 700 I have had since the 60's, which I adjusted in 1970, with the help of an armorer from Remington. The rifle is now a 35 Whelen, with the same trigger and adjustments since then, and STILL functions perfectly. I trust the Walker trigger, and I always will. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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My first BRNO was a ZKK 602 in .375 H&H Magnum, which I bought in Germany to use on a boar hunt in Bulgaria. This was 1970. I was unaware of the safety problem until the gun arrived. (I had ordered it through a dealer from Waffen Frankonia.) I took it to the gun club and practiced with it on the running boar range, but I could not accustom myself to the safety, ("Think of it like a lever action with a hammer: taking the safety off is the same as the cocking motion.") Despite my misgivings, I took it to Bulgaria. Sitting on my assigned stand the first day, waiting for the drive to begin, I decided to simply release the safety then, rather than fumble with it when the action started. You know what happened: two Ueberlaeufer (yearling pigs) came running across my field of vision, I threw the rifle up to my shoulder and ... automatically reengaged the safety. The solution came a number of years later when a reliable three position Model 70 type safety became available and I had one installed. | |||
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Cal, Why bother with a 22 Hornet? It won't do anything better than your 600 or 4 bore will do. Dead is dead, there is no such thing as overkill! NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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Ever heard of a PH named Alan Lowe from Zimbabwe? Most hunters nowdays have not...because he is dead...but, he was one of the great old time PH's with a proper Rhodesian hunting upbringing...a truly great professional. Well...he was as experienced as they come with ele. But, he was killed in Chewore South by ele on October 4, 1989. That particular day...he was carrying a BRNO with the backwards saftey. When they investigated the remains...they found the rifle fully loaded with a round in the chamber but had not been fired and was ON SAFETY...draw your own conclusion. There is a plaque mounted on a baobab at the site which was along the edge of the escarpment at the base of the hills. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Sorry, I'm a retired farmer. But a couple of decades ago a guy who coincidentally was an attorney was made a paraplegic, tragically by his own son, just a few miles from where I now live courtesy of a Remington 600 trigger/safety. The flaw in that system can sometimes allow the firing pin to fall when the safety is moved from the "safe" to the "fire" position if the gun's trigger has been pulled while on safe. Saying that there is nothing wrong with the trigger simply because you've owned many and never had a problem (as have I) is like saying that rattlesnakes don't bite simply because you've never been bitten. Neither have most of the other 7 Billion people on earth, but that doesn't change the demonstrated fact that rattlesnakes do bite. It is instructive, however, in regard to the CZ safety, that out of only a few dozen people who might have read this thread that two of them can cite instances in which the safety's backward operation caused (or in the case of the dead PH, apparently caused) the shooter to fail to fire the rifle when intended. There are undoubtedly many instances of the opposite, firing the rifle when it was not intended. As I said before, I can only pray that when such an unintended discharge occurs next that the person who is hurt is not someone with whom I am acquainted, much less have personal affection for. That is why, regardless of the cavalier attitude of some in the shooting community, and being pejoratively and falsely assumed to be an attorney, I'll continue to make sure that otherwise uninformed gun buyers are aware of the potential hazard of any of the very small number of firearms with backward-operating safeties. | |||
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I had a Rem 700 go off when I lifted the bolt. My finger was not on the trigger. Rifle, thank goodness was pointed in a safe direction. My late gunsmith said it was a common problem, but an easy fix. | |||
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Thanks for all the replies, gentlemen. The next gun show here is about December 1 and I will look there. Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
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As I said, the only 700/600 trigger to discharge accidentally is the one that has been messed with by someone. If one wishes to check his 600/700 trigger, simply cock the rifle, "unloaded of course". The "unloaded of course" should never have to be said, but the way people act and think these days, I guess it is necessary. simply bang the butt of the rifle on the carpet or floor matt, or something that won't damage the butt plate, if it drops the firing pin, either it is adjusted to lightly, or the sear engagement is incorrect. There is no other way it can drop the firing pin. I will say though, in the millions of Remington rifles that have been sold, there is always the possibility of a mechanical malfunction. Do you remember your hunter safety course, ALWAYS keep the muzzel pointed in a safe direction, and a safety is a mechanical device that can FAIL. Observance of these two rules, will keep people from harm, even if there is a malfunction. As I said earler, I have the utmost confidence in the Walker trigger, and I always will. Also, I believe a person better know the equipment he is using before he puts himself in harms way. An example would be your military rifle training. Differnt weapons, with safties in differnt places. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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I have an old savage 322 from the era you enquired about. Certainly not as sexy as a model 54 or 70 but it is as accurate as I can shoot iron sights.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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Hmm, and the likelihood of being mauled to death by a rampant squirrel is what? Seriously? Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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In case you are incapable of comprehension...I'll explain. Stonecreek was making the case that often times safety use was from long-term use of one system and when not purposely thinking of the safety situation that one could, by habit, put the gun in fire mode when one wanted safe thereby rendering an accidental discharge more likely. I was just corroborating his line of reasoning by citing an incidence where the reverse "probably" happened. NOT stating that one would be in a situation where you would be stopping a charge with a Hornet! So...Seriously?...back at you! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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That is simply not true. Texas is as state known for its hostility to tort claims and has some of the most difficult laws and courts in the nation in which to successfully prosecute a tort claim. Yet Texas judges and juries found that the clear and convincing evidence was that the old Remington triggers caused unintentional discharges. The trigger/safety on the Rem 600 in this case had NOT been "messed" with. As it was clearly demonstrated in court, and in a number tragically similar cases around the country, the old Remington trigger, just as it came from the factory, could and DID malfunction in a number of instances. It is not at all uncommon for a shooter to pull the trigger while the safety is engaged; I'll bet you've done it countless times. But pulling the old Remington trigger with the safety engaged could act as a "set", and when the safety was moved to the fire position (in most instances to unload the gun), the sear would drop and the gun would fire. In other words, the act of moving the safety so that the bolt could be raised functioned just like pulling the trigger. Not a good situation, right? It's not my intention to re-litigate the Remington cases. For obvious reasons, Remington never admitted that there was a defect, but they did modify the trigger (after paying undisclosed millions in court awards to injured parties). Incidentally, many of those awards were reduced due to the juries determining that the accident was partially the fault of the shooter -- as we all know, you have a duty to avoid to the greatest extent possible pointing a gun in a direction that it can do harm. But you also have the right to a reasonable expectation that the mere act of moving a safety will not cause a rifle to discharge. Once again, it is clearly in the interest of shooters and the shooting industry that guns perform as they are intended to perform. Whether it is a potentially defective trigger or a poor design like a safety which operates the opposite way of conventional safeties, we are ill-served by hiding our heads in the sand. Instead, we should demand that manufacturers fix functional problems when they are discovered and correct old, flawed designs like the CZ safety. | |||
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ledvm-- I certainly understood your point and think it was a very good example of how a backwards safety may have gotten someone killed. | |||
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Problem is, you don't even know if the safety is to blame at all. Pure speculation. Sorta like saying that a hunter is found dead after falling out of his tree stand. And, since he was carrying a Rem 700, the trigger must be to blame. I love these bash the CZ safety threads. I have probably every kind of safety imaginable on my rifles. Simple rule to follow is that when I flip the safety to safe, fire is in the opposite direction. Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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You certainly hit the nail on the head. As I said any safety/trigger can malfunction, but in my 45 years of shooting owning and working on 700 Remingtons, the only ones that were "unsafe" were the ones some "expert" worked on, or were mis adjusted at the factory. And I couldn't agree more on the safety issue also. If you don't understand your equipment, your probably gonna wind up dead. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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If you have the chance, please post a reference to some of these cases (names, court district, etc.) so that I can read about the case on the Cornell Law site. Since you mentioned jury awards I am assuming that these were not out of court settlements. Thanks in advance. | |||
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The only safety that I use is the manner in which I handle the gun. No mechanical system can be relied upon 100%. Unfortunately many people forget the rules of gun handling. If someone is injured when a safety or trigger fails then the person handling the weapon was grossly negligent. It should never be pointed at anything you do not want dead. Negligent firing comes in all flavors and colors but it is always more than an "accident". You have to point the gun at someone to injure them. That is the shooters fault! Blaming it on a trigger or safety is bull. Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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I heard there was a hornet in the room but upstaged by a backward safety and went home to the hive empty handed!! | |||
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Google Remington 700 safety issues and there are all kinds of entries to include that Remington was aware of the problem. Yes a person should always point a gun in a safe direction, but a gun should not go off on it's own. To deny that is a very dangerous undesirable situation is ridiculous. To deny that there is a problem with safeties on some Rem 700's is also ridiculous. | |||
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