All this chronograph talk brings up a question I have. I don't have a chronograph but a guy at the range let me use his. He had several rifles that he said the chronie was reading all as expected. I shot a couple of my rifles and got about what I expected. Then I shot my .243 using a cast bullet and got a whole lot more than expected. The book said 2400/2500 fps and the chronie said 2900fps. None of his bullets nor my other bullets were cast. Is there a reason the cast could give a bad reading? Is it possible I was getting an accurate reading and really was that much higher than book? Which ever the case those cast bullets did not work on deer. Shot a spike and never found one drop of blood.

The chrono was probably right; you probably are getting more than book.

You say you shot a spike; if you never found a drop of blood how do you know you hit it? How do you know it didn't die?

I shot a blue wildebeest with a Speer cup and core bullet out of a 375 H&H Magnum. The thing ran off as if not much had happened. The PH found a minute speck of blood that I would say the great majority of hunters would have missed. The wildebeest was found stone dead about 200 yards from where I hit it with the bullet perfectly mushroomed under the skin of the off shoulder.

the other thing is that possibly the screens were set a tad closer together than they should have been

Chronograph screens, particularly some of the less expensive models, can misread a bullet as it passes. There is no correlated relationship between lead and jacket bullets in this regard, but the difference in reflectivity of the bullet surface has been known to "fool" chronograph sensors.

If you fired several shots and got consistent results, then I would tend to believe the chronograph.

If you fired only one shot, then the reading could well be a fluke.

Post your load and maybe someone will have done some work with it or a similar one and will have some independent data that can shed some light on the subject.

Hey Carpetman, If you used Jacketed Bullet "Load info" with the Lead Bullet, the Lead will fly faster than the Jacketed counterpart of a similar weight.

The reason is simple(but usually results in long arguments), it is because there is less Bore Friction with the Lead. Thus the Load will push it Faster.

The argument begins when the people who believe the more Friction, the Higher the Pressure will be and that will create a Faster Velocity. The problem is that is "sometimes" True, but not always.

Lead is a great Bullet material. Best of luck to you.

Or open the chrony all the way

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Chronograph screens, particularly some of the less expensive models, can misread a bullet as it passes. There is no correlated relationship between lead and jacket bullets in this regard, but the difference in reflectivity of the bullet surface has been known to "fool" chronograph sensors.

S-Creek, I am NOT trying to start a argument here just trying to understand your statement. The fact the chronograph gave a reading at all tells me that it had good reflectivity. On even my cheap Chrony, if there is no reflectivity, it will give a "error" reading. Whether it reads the front of the bullet or the rear of the bullet I would think be very insignificant.
All a chronograph is a electronic timing of a moving object between to known points.

Please explain.

I concur with Hot Core.

Hope that doesn't surprise anyone

Larry Gibson

I did fire several shots and got consistent readings. If there was error in the screens etc wouldn't that same error show in the readings on the jacketed bullets? Grumulkin--how do I know I hit the spike and that it didn't die? Actually my grandson shot at the spike (easy shot) and the spike ran a very short didtance and was then on my side. I had an easy shot, that I see no way that I missed. I have high doubts my grandson missed---it wasn't his first rodeo so to speak. No blood nor sign of deer found after he departed, I'd have no way of knowing he didnt die. He did not appear hurt. Two people that were in the area said they could tell by the sound that the second shot (mine) did hit????? Hot Core---no I wasnt using jacketed data on cast bullets. In fact I find the data interesting as the old Lyman Manual printed in 1967 showed a start load of 13.0 and MAX of 17.0---this was IMR 4227 powder. Newer Lyman Manual( Cast Bullet Handbook) printed 1980 shows a starting load--greater than the old MAX---start of 19.3 and max of 24.5. I started at the old and worked up in 1/2 grain increments and when I got to 23.5 it was magic but at 24.0 I was off the paper--never saw such a drastic change before with 1/2 grain of powder.

Back about 1997, the powers that be, VA STATE GAME COMMISSION, decided that they'd let hunters use PROJECTILES CAPABLE OF EFFICIENT DISPATCH of game animals using ML rifles. Up unto that time only LEAD projectiles were ok'd. I do not claim to be a crack shot with any given rifle. But I do know when performance at target(meat) is not congrusive with paper..........the original KNIGHT LEAD 260 grain projectiles were accurate and they'd drill holes.........that was the problem........drilling holes with no shock effect!! The fact that you shot a deer and found not one drop of blood does not surprise me!! BTDT!! That's why I think the "deer totals" for the southern states was off big time back in the 90's and early 2000's for ML hunters! Give me a Hornady ROUND BALL and a LYMAN TRADE RIFLE and with my hunting ability I'll kill deer!! I wish that all the states would designate a time(not after Christmas when it's "0" degrees!!) for TRADITIONAL ML, no in-lines, no scopes, no jacketed bullets. Make that time in between bowhunting and rifle season...........don't close the bowhunting season, just have it run concurrently......I like to bowhunt too!! Shooting a deer is less easy than shooting a groundhog!! I could kill 1000 deer a year but 100 groundhogs is becoming tough!! At 49 right now on 6/22/09 but this weekend is "going to the honeyhole"! GHD

Hey Big Dog, Shot my chronograph that I've been using since 1990 the other day!! 20 years and it's been a good one!! Only sent back to the factory one time for re-calibration and that was about 2001. But an 87 grain VMAX(6mm) just a little bit lower exiting the barrel and sight picture, vs a 140 grain AMAX(260 Rem) doomed this chrony to hell!!LYAO folks!! Charlie (GHD)

Carpetman1

If I may ask, how far from the muzzle was the start screen? Many tmes with cast loads if the start screen is too close the muzzle bast triggers the screens instead of the bullets, especially with small diameter cast ones, and gives abnormally high readings. Just a thought.

Larry Gibson

Larry--this was probably 10 years ago and I dont have that measurement. If it were too close--it was same distance for other loads. I did shoot some jacketed loads in the same rifle (.243) and they were as I expected them to be. My grandson turns 21 this month and he had moved up to .243 when he was about 11 so I imagine the 10 year guess is pretty close.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:

I shot a blue wildebeest with a Speer cup and core bullet out of a 375 H&H Magnum. The thing ran off as if not much had happened. The PH found a minute speck of blood that I would say the great majority of hunters would have missed. The wildebeest was found stone dead about 200 yards from where I hit it with the bullet perfectly mushroomed under the skin of the off shoulder.

And this is the very reason why I have always subscribed to Elmer Keith's philosophy of using a rifle and a bullet that punches through an animal. The bullet exit wound will always bleed the animal out quicker, dropping it sooner and, if not a bang flop, gives a good blood trail to follow up. Sure in some cases in Africa you don't want to wound or kill another animal standing behind the target but in most other hunting situations Elmer knew what he was talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
... Actually my grandson shot at the spike (easy shot) and the spike ran a very short didtance and was then on my side. I had an easy shot, that I see no way that I missed. I have high doubts my grandson missed---it wasn't his first rodeo so to speak. No blood nor sign of deer found after he departed, I'd have no way of knowing he didnt die. He did not appear hurt. Two people that were in the area said they could tell by the sound that the second shot (mine) did hit?????

Hey Carpetman, I can remember a few that did the same to me. Seems like they are easier to remember than most of the Trophy Deer. If a person actually Hunts and Shoots at Game enough, unexpected and unexplainable results will occasionally happen.

On the positive side, the pressure placed on us by those memories really help our Focus on doing the best we can for clean 1-shot Kills.

quote:

...no I wasnt using jacketed data on cast bullets. In fact I find the data interesting as the old Lyman Manual printed in 1967 showed a start load of 13.0 and MAX of 17.0---this was IMR 4227 powder. Newer Lyman Manual( Cast Bullet Handbook) printed 1980 shows a starting load--greater than the old MAX---start of 19.3 and max of 24.5. I started at the old and worked up in 1/2 grain increments and when I got to 23.5 it was magic but at 24.0 I was off the paper--never saw such a drastic change before with 1/2 grain of powder.

Long l-o-n-g ago I had some IMR-4320 do something similar in a 300Sav. I was able to see how erratic it got due to the Pressure Indicators I used/use.

The most recent example I've had is with the Slower "RL" Powders - 19, 22, 25. I know a lot of folks have excellent accuracy and good performance with them, but they just did not work well for me. Tried a few jugs of the 19 & 22, but maybe only 1-2 of the 25.

What Powder did you change to from the IMR-4227?
-----

Hey GHD, I've Hunted in a good many places, but mostly in South Carolina. Your desire for, "I wish that all the states would designate a time(not after Christmas when it's "0" degrees!!) for TRADITIONAL ML, no in-lines, no scopes, no jacketed bullets." is possible during the S.C. Lowcountry Deer Season from 15Aug<->1Jan of each year. Or you can locate some of the old Plantations with Depredation Permits and Kill lots of Deer every day of the Off Season.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
The chrono was probably right; you probably are getting more than book.

quote:

...and the chronie said 2900fps.

My 3rd edition of Lyman's cast handbook lists 3 bullet weights for the 243Win. Even the lightest, 83gr, does not surpass 2150fps through a 26" barrel with a max load using 4227 powder like carpetman1 used. Thinking he truly got 2900fps is incomprehensible.

In fact, NO pistol powders garnered speeds faster than ~2150fps. Both of the heavier bullets (90gr and 95gr), not surprisingly, couldn't even go that fast. Only rifle powders (W748, H335, H4895, and IMR-4320) reached 2900fps, and only with the 83gr bullet.

My guess is somehow one of the rifle powders was used, assuming the chrono was accurate with the jacketed bullets tested the same day.

To think that the Lyman testing of the 243Win with cast bullets could be off by 750fps is pure folly.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
I did fire several shots and got consistent readings. If there was error in the screens etc wouldn't that same error show in the readings on the jacketed bullets? Grumulkin--how do I know I hit the spike and that it didn't die? Actually my grandson shot at the spike (easy shot) and the spike ran a very short didtance and was then on my side. I had an easy shot, that I see no way that I missed. I have high doubts my grandson missed---it wasn't his first rodeo so to speak. No blood nor sign of deer found after he departed, I'd have no way of knowing he didnt die. He did not appear hurt. Two people that were in the area said they could tell by the sound that the second shot (mine) did hit????? Hot Core---no I wasnt using jacketed data on cast bullets. In fact I find the data interesting as the old Lyman Manual printed in 1967 showed a start load of 13.0 and MAX of 17.0---this was IMR 4227 powder. Newer Lyman Manual( Cast Bullet Handbook) printed 1980 shows a starting load--greater than the old MAX---start of 19.3 and max of 24.5. I started at the old and worked up in 1/2 grain increments and when I got to 23.5 it was magic but at 24.0 I was off the paper--never saw such a drastic change before with 1/2 grain of powder.

I think your grandson and you probably did hit the deer. I've hit stuff that didn't appear to be hit that was hit. The fact that there was no blood didn't indicate it wasn't hit or that it didn't die one or two hundred yards into the woods; dead deer are sometimes very hard to find.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is don't blame the bullet. A cast bullet probably isn't going to expand as well as a jacketed one and may not kill as fast; it's not a bullet defect but just a bullet characteristic. I don't use cast bullets in high velocity weapons; not that I think it's wrong but I prefer the better performance of jacketed bullets.

As for the lack of complete penetration on my wildebeest referred to above, the bullet hit the right front shoulder and angled through both lungs. I'm satisfied with 3 or 4 feet of penetration even though the bullet didn't exit.

Rae59:

Since Carpetman answered that he fired several shots and got consistent readings I think that the possibility of the screens misreading the bullet can be dismissed as an explanation.

But to expand on the theory itself: The screens trigger when they detect the passage (shadow) of the bullet. Screens can be "fooled" by the glint from very highly polished bullets which may "confuse" the screen. So, the manufacturer "tunes" the screens for a particular level of sensitivity to compensate for this. Likewise, a dull cast lead bullet might be detected a little differently by the screens. If there are multiple light sources such as both direct and reflected sunlight, then the first screen may read a shadow from one source and the second screen may read a shadow from another light source. This results in the same thing as screen spacing error and could easily explain a reading difference of 400 fps, or about 15%, particularly if the screen spacing is only twelve inches to begin with.

Now, this ain't what happened to Carpetman, but it is something that can ocassionally happen to a shooter when using a chronograph with photo-activated screens.

If you hit a deer withh cast lead at 2900fps, the deer would have reacted. The lead would have "splashed" at that speed, and the deer would have taken off like a scalded cat.

If it was hit at closer to 2000fps range, the cast bullet could have easily penciled through, and the deer not give much of any reaction. I've seen this happen with deer before with big conicals and loads suitable for elk/bison, no reaction until it just fell over stiff legged.

Thanks for the responses--this has got me thinking. I dont buy that I may have used some other type powder. One thought did hit me. I do have scope on the .243 and I do sight in at 25 yards as Jack O'Connor explains in his 1947 article that was reprinted and included with Weaver scopes when they were made at El Paso Tx. The article explains that line of sight is straight and bullet makes arc. Bullet starts out below line of sight. So bullet cuts through the arc twice. If the first time is at 25 yards it will be back on again downrange depending on velocity,bullet shape etc. For most guns this will be at about 200 yards or so and will put you a little high at 100 yards. I did not have to readjust my scope as the cast were hitting same place at 100 yards as they did with jacketed. Had they been the 2150 onefunrun mentioned they would have been lower. My question wasn't about how cast bullets perform. This experience answered that. I do think both of us hit the deer but they penciled through with no expansion. A bigger bore is needed for the most part you will have the rainbow trajectory, that's why I'm sticking to jacketed for my hunting. Shooting jackrabbits is not hunting and .22 cal cast works great on them.

You could always test your fired cases for excess pressure by using Hotcore's venerable, time-proven, easy to use, never fail methods referred to on this site as good old CHE & PRE.

A cast boolit going 2900fps with pistol powder in a 243, which according to the Lyman book is ~750fps too fast has got to show signs of high pressure. This looks like the perfect occasion to use CHE & PRE.

As much as CHE & PRE. is touted by Hotcore on this forum, I'd think your question could be answered by simply putting good old CHE & PRE. to the test. Then we'd all learn a valuable lesson. I'm sure Hotcore would be more than willing to instruct you on performing this test to his high standards. What have you got to lose?

I'm not much into exotic possibilities. I think both of your bullets hit some brush.

BECOOLE, it is indeed possible to over think a situation.

Gentlemen ----- Stonecreek has given you very good information. I Chronograph 99% of all my loads and shoot three days weekly, weather permitting. I have used many different Chronographs, until I got my Oehler 35-P, now it is the only one I use. It has three electric "eyes" or screens if you will, that checks themselves and gives you the most accurate information possible. It will also sometimes fail to record a bullets speed or be confused. I have spoken to Mr. and Mrs. Oehler as well as Gary, their tech man at the present time. They tell me that in order for the Chronograph to record the bullet speed, it has to see the bullet. Some bullets are very highly polished, that along with slanting bright sun rays, can confuse the Chrony into thinking no bullet crossed the eyes, or only one eye saw it thus indicating an error. The cast bullets mentioned here would be easily seen, wereas a highly polished bullet may not. They said some testers might paint the bullet for it to give a correct shadow for the eyes to detect. I have used my 35-P for years and know when it tells me no speed or a funny speed, there are circumstances beyond it's control at work. This is my opinion and experience, for what it is worth. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Larry--this was probably 10 years ago and I dont have that measurement. If it were too close--it was same distance for other loads. I did shoot some jacketed loads in the same rifle (.243) and they were as I expected them to be. My grandson turns 21 this month and he had moved up to .243 when he was about 11 so I imagine the 10 year guess is pretty close.

That is not unusaual; the .243 jacketed bullet hit the screens before the muzzle blast did. With the slower cast load the reverse was probably true, I've seen it many times. I've watched many, many shooters set up chronographs and many of them set them up too close. Always best to have a minimum of 10 feet to the start screen and these days I use 15 feet.

Larry Gibson

ive picked up readings about 500fps faster with pistols shot too close to the screen

quote:

Originally posted by anukpuk:
ive picked up readings about 500fps faster with pistols shot too close to the screen

If it is the shock wave (or gas/powder/debris) preceeding the bullet which is triggering the first screen -- but not the second -- then you should get a slower rather than faster reading, as this would effectively make the screen spacing wider, thus taking more time between screen triggers, thus indicating a slower apparent velocity.

However, this may be too simple an explanation. Whatever is happening, it is clear that placing the muzzle too close to the sensor screens (or perhaps in the case of the Chrony, too close to the internal gadgets, thus messing with their functions), may result in errant readings. I've never had any trouble with putting an Oehler screen as close as five feet from the muzzle, but the Oehler system may be less subject to these issues than the Chrony.

Capetman, this is Why the Chronograph is call the "de-liar"

You don't really know what you are getting on any load until you check. Over time you will see that the published results are not always accurate.

Antelope Sniper---Problem is, I dont know if the chronie is lying.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
I concur with Hot Core.

Hope that doesn't surprise anyone

Larry Gibson

Even a blind squirrel finds an acron every once in a while.
Paul B.

Carpteman, the Chronograph probably isn't lying.

But just like with any other scientific test, it's always a good idea to double check unexpected results against a known control.

In other words, go shoot it again, and see if you get the same results, and shoot another load or two where you already know what to expect. If everything checks out, you will know the difference is not with the chronograph.

Make sure it's prefectly flat, and at least 10" from the muzzle, and let us know what happens!