Since we're talking deer and splitting fine hairs, a few months ago I had to make this decision for an open field rifle for our full-grown northern deer in BC. I went with a 6.5-06 because the slightly larger, heavier bullet made sense to me, and of course the 270 would have been too large . The 4X5 mulie I shot this year seemed to agree with my decision. I used the 125 partition at slightly over 3100, although the 120 XLC at 3250'ish may get the nod next year.

I've taken a few deer with the 25-06 with 100 "X"'s and 115 partitions, and I think I'll like the 6.5-06 better.

The 260? Sounds like a damn fine woman's rifle . Seriously, if we're honestly talking 300+ yard deer, then we're also talking at least a 22" barrel so why not use a full length case?

todbartell,
i totally agree with you about the bigger animals. i don't shoot at anyting except whitetails at over 300yds, then 450 is my limit, i practice a lot with my 260 for that also, and the people that are saying the 25's have less drop, sure they do out to 500yds, but i'd bet that the biggest 25 nut on this board practices an awful lot, so trajectory isn't a real factor. penetration at those ranges is, and i will take my 140 tbbc everytime. after prereading my post i thought, damn, i hate these kinda posts because i love both 25's and 26's. why make me choose, i have both.

The .260 rem is MUCH better than a .25-06 because I own a .260 and don't own a .25-06 (yet).

cwilson

No flies on the 25-06,regardless of company.............

Todd, I agree with everything you said in your last post. However, based on my experience with the 270 (a lot), the 25-06 (a fair bit), and the 6.5-06 (a little), I firmly believe that any difference in the 3 whether at 50 or 450 yards in something no animal will ever notice. Computer minutae? Sure, a case can be made for one over the other if you try hard enough. But in the field you'll never notice a difference assuming like bullets and reasonable shot placement. If you can't hit a deer in the ribs at 450 yards, it's the fault of the shooter, not the cartridge. Accuracy, bullet drop and wind deflection are too similar to give one an advantage over the others.

todbartell,

This conversation is pointless. If you're talking elk, moose, etc..., then both calibers are undersized at ranges over 200 yards, and you should be using something else.

Real World Ballistics:

I have a 22" barrelled .260 Rem. 140 gr Partition max muzzle velocity is about 2710 fps. The 125 grain Partition tops out at 2900 fps. At 300 yards, they have energies of 1473 and 1477 ft-lbs, respectively. At 400 yards, energies are 1263 and 1254 ft-lbs. Basically identical. With a 200 yard zero, drop at 300 yards is 8.4" and 7.2" respectively.

My 24" barrelled .25-06 can launch a 115 gr Partition at just over 3100 fps. At 300 yards, retained energy is 1459 ft-lbs, at 400 yards, 1212 ft-lbs. With a 200 yard zero, drop at 300 yards is 6.4".

In other words, practically no difference between the three loads. The .260 loads retain a tiny bit more energy (not enough to matter) and the .25-06 load is a bit flatter (not enough to matter).

If you think the .25-06 is a p.o.s., there are thousands of hunters who take their deer every year with one, at ranges from 20-400 yards. I imagine they would beg to differ.

Like I said, I like them both. For deer and smaller animals, there isn't enough difference between the two to worry about. If you put the bullet from either one in the vitals, the animal will die.

If you want to hunt elk and moose, get a larger caliber.

I'll take the 25-06, lot easier to find cartridges for and they shoot pretty much the same.

I don't mean to sound like a wise guy, but what really is the point of this?

You are comparing a larger cartidge with a smaller diameter that tops out at 120g bullets to a smaller cartridge that uses up to 160g RN bullets.

Wouldn't a better comparison be to a .270 Winchester or a .280 Remington? The .260 won't fare so well against either of them.

I would say that the lower blast and powder consumption is what tips the scales to the 260. I wouldn't sell the 25/06 to get a 260 though.

If you guys are tired of trying to find reasons why the 25-06 is any good, just stop then. No need to make a post about it.

Real world is fine, some people think there is no difference worth talking about, yet others, like Big Stick and I do think there is a difference.

I will try some tests with the 25-06 and the 260 rem this summer, to see how much of a "real world" difference there actually is.

P.S., I don't use my 260 on moose, I never said I did. I use my 416 rem for that.

[ 03-06-2003, 10:45: Message edited by: todbartell ]

Well, here's a difference. I think the .25-06 makes the perfect beanfield rifle for the smaller deer (like what we have in the south). This is what my .25-06 looks like. I shoot a 85g Ballistic Tip at 3470 fps for varmints and a 115g BT for deer at about 3070 fps.

The thing shoots like a lazer with the 85g bullet.

I challenge both of them, bring your 25-06 and the 260. I'll bring my 257 weatherby and meet you at the range. Will see who is faster!

Largest group buys the drinks after, those are the rules!

If any one ever asks me to suggest a 25/06 type of performer that comes in a short action, I'll give you the credit

While I doubt anyone wiull evey see the field difference in the 260/25-06/swede, There is a big difference in the type of rifles they are normally chambered in and the typ of hunting cover/styles represented. 260 is usually in a 20-22" bbl in a light short rifle. These are not as easy to hold steady under field shooting conditions thatn the 24-26" bbl 25-06 rifles out there Therefore a normal 260 rifle is inferior to a normal 25-06 one for long range shooting of deer sized game. I have shot the 6.5x55 the 270 and 7-08 in these rifles and can see the downrange effect rifle style, not cartidge design, has on these applications.

BR

I doubt the deer care which you shoot them with. I would use either one any time.

Dream on Tod, but remember you can use X bullets in the 25-06 also and you can also use the 12 bullets at much higher velocity...I still hold that the 06 case holds a heck of a lot more powder and you cannot get away from that, your being led down the yellow brick road my man, now you might have a case with the 6.5 Mag, 284 or even the 6.5/06, but never the 260...

The point is why?? The 260 was designed for a neat,small, light gun to replace the fine old 6.5x53 Manlicher that got its rep with a 160 gr. bullet at 2300 FPS, killing power without recoil, take it for what it is...otherwise it is a pretty worthless cartridge compared to the many other calibers out there...

Ray, I respect your knowledge, and always enjoy your posts, but sir I have to differ with you on the comment the 260 is pretty worthless when compared to others out there. I have shot my 260 a LOT (2600 and change rounds in the last 1.5 years) at long range ( 500 to 1000 yds.) and feel for the powder burnt nothing gets as much done as a well tuned load in a 260. And it is still putting over a 1000 lb (over 1200 if you we want to talk MatchKings) of energy on the target at 500 yards with my pet load and a 140 gr Sierra SBT hunting bullet. I hardly call that worthless. Keep up the posts, as I said, I always enjoy reading yours. Most of the time you hit the nail on the head, I just feel you bent the nail this time.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight......RiverRat

whoever it was that said the 25 is abbusive is a pussy
Give me the 25 any day..

Damn! I was gonna re-barrel a .243 (now if you want to talk about worthless cartridges, the .243 is the place to start)into a .260. After all this, I don't know what to do.
Ray is a grand gent but on the one hand he can grow absolutely starry eyed over a 7x57 or a 6.5 swede and then turn around and tell you a 7-08 and a .260 is a POS.
Ray, tell us how the new short mags compare to, lets say, a 300H&H or a 375H&H. Now don't hold back on us...............let her buck!!!

Hey, Don't badmouth 243's, I just got mine to shoot nice tiny little groups. I also got my 6.5x55 shooting the same.

I got rid of my 25-06, nothing wrong with it, it took deer almost as well as my 6.5x55.

Oh yea, Now I have to get my finicky 7x57 to group well.

LOL, I thought this thread was long dead. I guess it was too good to go that easily. Anyways, this is kinda weird, as today I was playing with a Weatherby MkV UltraLight in 25-06 (gasp ), and was just looking for load data for it a few minutes ago. So, now I have a 260 Rem & 25-06 to compare side by side. Hope to load up some quarter bore and see how it does. One thing is for sure, I won't find any 140 grainers for it!

GUYS LETS FACE IT HOW MANY OF REALLY SHOOT AT 300 TO 400 YD RANGES AND ACTUALLY KILL GAME,MAYBE ONCE A SEASON IF THAT MUCH, I WORK AT GUN SHOP AND FOR THE LAST 5 YRS I HAVE SPENT PROBABLY 10,000 DOLLARS TRYING TO FIND THE PERFECT DEER RIFLE COMBINATION HAVE HAD TWO 25-06 AND ONE .260, 0NE 30-06, 2 .308 2 7-08, 4 .270 AND NONE KILLED ANY BETTER THAN THE OTHER AS LONG AS I SEE I COULD KILL, THE EASIEST ONE TO SHOOT WAS A .243 WITH 85 BTHP, PUT YOUR MONEY IN THE SCOPE AND BINOCULARS AND GET A DECENT TRIGGER JOB CAUSE I HAVE PISSED AWAY ENOUGH MONET ON DIFFRENT CALIBERS TO ONLY FIND OUT THERE AINT NO DAMN SUBSTITUTE FOR SHOT PLACEMENT!!!! I HAD FUN HIDING ALL THAT STUFF FROM MY EX THOUGH

Well, shucks!!! Guess I will throw my $0.05 in also........
If you are purchasing a new rifle--just get what makes your heart go pitty-pat!!!! All the commercial rounds will do the job.

If you have a current firearm that you want to make into a custom rifle, I personally believe let the action design pick the cartridge. A Rem 700 SA--243,260,7-08 depending on the game you expect to hunt. If you reload, then the improved versions might be the desired cartridge.

Mauser 98's-pick a cartridge that you have to do very little modifications ie; 6mm Rem,257 'Bob',6.5x55 Swede,7mm Mauser or the like...Reloaders might want to once again choose the various improved versions. The 257 Roberts Ackley Improved, 6.5x55 BJAI, 7mm Ackley Improved all fit well with the 98 Mauser and can be 'rationally' loaded to be just a tad slower fps wise than some of the Mags with longer accurate barrel life, case life and MUCH less expense besides being nicer to your shoulder.

Long actions,Rem,Win,Savage,Ruger of the '06,270,25-06,280 Rem original chambers will certainly do what is necessary without changing much of anything at all. Once again, improved versions if you want to build up that personal custom rifle.

Out to 300-400yds, there is just not that much difference in 'paper' ballistics. It is much more important to place the 'RIGHT' bullet in the 'RIGHT' place, IMHO. Spend your time and hard earned money in 'QUALITY PRACTICE'.

Just my thoughts on the subject for what its worth.

Ol' John

[ 05-08-2003, 19:27: Message edited by: HondoJohn6508 ]

todbartell,

For larger game maybe the .264 caliber is better, this I'll give you but for all around use the .25-06 has it all over the .260. That 95 grain So called varmint bullet in .264 caliber doesn't blow up when hitting the ground. It ricochets quite nicely. Varmints bullets are supposed to break up when hitting the ground NOT go flying off in another direction. We have tried them in my wife's 6.5 Swede for coyotes and such and they don't work. Sorry you can't go by just data, performance is what counts and the means "Advantage .25-06". Lawdog

Gentlemen of the .25 cal. & 6.5mm clans! In this corner we have...! No really, I find this discussion quite interesting on these two middle-weights. I'm new to these particular forums and I clicked on the .25 caliber discussion to see what was what. Evidently the .25-06 and the 260 both must be pretty good cartridges in this category of calibers! My question is as follows. Say, choose between these calibers mixing in these rifle choices, 1) Ruger M77II in either one, 2)The Remington BDL in the 25-06 or, 3) for sh--s and grins, the Remington VLS in 6mm. Any user comments are invited and thank you!

just buy a 7mm-08 and call it a day. once you close the bolt you will never know the difference.
woofer

Man oh Man, is this a hot topic for discussion.

I for one have never owned a 25/06. Never saw the need for it. I don't see what much more it will do for me than a handloaded 6mm Remington, or a 257 Roberts. I do have and use a 6mm Remington with the 1 in 8 twist. I can get 105 grain Speers doing 3300 out of a 24 inch Heavy sporter barrel. The rifle is a long action Remington that was rebarreled from an '06.

However many of the guys bashing the 260 evidently have not owned one of them or saw the need for them either, so we are even.

There are those that seem to have experience with the 25/06 enough to talk about real experience, not book statistics.

I have experience with the 260, and it is real world experience. I own 3 of them. Two stainless Rugers that I got rid of that crappy Zytel Stock and put a pair of Boyd's JRS stocks on them. One carries a Weaver 4 x scope and it set up to shoot 140 grain loads in brush. The other is set up to shoot 100 grain loads in open country, with a Leupold 3x9 scope with a Leupold Dot reticle. Both go on deer hunts.

The third is a Remington VLS with a 26 inch barrel. I detach several different scopes on Weaver mounts depending on the loads. But it shoots varmint loads and target load matchkings a lot. 90 grain speers and 100 grain sierras and ballistic tips, 120 grain ballistic tips and match kings.

For my hunting if I think I need more velocity in 6.5 bore, I have two 6.5 x 55s, one Factory Ruger and one rebarreled Featherweight with a 26 inch barrel. For target shooting at long range and hunting with 140 to 160 bullets also I shoot a 6.5 x 57 with a 28 inch heavy sporter barrel on a Winchester action.

I picked the 6.5 caliber based on high sectional densities and high ballistic coefficients. In playing with calibers before I had the 6.5 x 57 built and the featherweight 6.5 x 55, I found anything over the size of those cases just required more powder and had not a very big increase in velocity.

Much the same reason that 270 Winchester is so much efficient than the 270 Weatherby. Also another reason that the 264 mag burned out barrels so quick.

So if this proved to be true in 26 caliber and 27 caliber it is also the same in 25 caliber only moreso. That is why a 25/06 has nothing I can see over a 257 Roberts AI.

How many 25 caliber guys would love it if they were able to get bullets up to 140 grains or even 160 grains? Most would just think it added to the versatility of the 25 bore. Well, .257 vs .264, 7 thousandths difference in diameter.

The 25/06 was not my choice because of bore diameter, it was the '06 case. It just burns more powder, caused more throat erosion, burned out a barrel quicker. whether i made the '06 into a 25/06 or a 6.5/06.

The 308 cases are also known for being more accurate that a similar '06 based case.

As far as case capacity, I filled a 6.5 x 55 case up with H 380 powder, then a 257 roberts necked up to 6.5 x 57 and then a 7/08 necked down to 260. I prefer winchester brass is why i did not use remington 260 brass. Both the 55 and 57 mm cases only held one more grain of H 380 than did the 260 case ( Remington or Win 7/08 necked down).

Want to see how much powder gets blown out your barrel? Hang an old Tshirt or pillowcase or sheet in front of your barrel and shoot a shot thru it. you will see how much powder gets blown out of the barrel. this equates to barrel erosion. What is going to blow more out? a 260 shooting 43.5 grains of 4064 or a 25/06 shooting 53 grains of H4831 or 56+ grains of AA 3100??
The Nosler manual lists both the 4064 load for the 260 and the 4831 load in the 25/06 as launching a 100 grain bullet at 3290 fps. According to the Nosler manual charts the difference in drop for both bullets all the way to 600 yds favors the 25/06 by an inch or less.
However the 25/06 requires 25% more powder than the 260 to accomplish this; is this worth it or overly efficient? It does increase my barrel wear tho. If I want more velocity, I just go the the 6.5 x 55 or 6.5 x 57. 120s in the x55 given me 3250 fps ( w748/ 44 grs) 140s in the x 57 give me 3,000+ ( RL15)

Skip the 25/06 and compare the 260 to the 6.5x 284. Same case capacity the 25/06 and the 6.5/284, the same bore size the 6.5 x284 vs the 260. Yet once again the 6.5 /284 requires more powder to get a 100 grain BT launched out of the barrel a meer 50fps faster.

Which one is more efficient and in the real world which one is actually all that better than the other. It is almost like two old guys arguing over the 30/30 and the 32 Special. except both of them used the same amount of powder, not so comparing the 25/06 to the 260.

I have dropped several Blacktails with the 260, at 300 yds. Put the Dot on the scope on them, pulled the trigger and watched them drop in the scope. Velocity 3350 fps out of a 22 inch barreled Ruger. Same load in a 260 VLS is clocked at 3425 to 3450. But then once again doesn't the 25/06 and the 6.5/284 and the 6.5/06 require a 24 to 26 inch barrel for maximum efficiency to burn the powder??

90 grain Speet TNTs consistently break 3500 to 3550 fps out of this VLS. the nosler manual once again lists another 50 fps second to 3600 out of a 25/06, but then that is using 57 grains of powder versus 44 grains in the 260. That is about a 30% increase in powder that is just going to reward my rifle with quicker throat erosion again.

I am not going to rap the 25/06 to make the 260 look better. It does a strong case of holding its own in any respect, and does it with a lot more efficiency. Same goes for a 6.5/06 or a 6.5x284. the 260 does not give up anything noticable in the real world, and takes a greater less powder to do it, and rewards the user with a longer barrel life also, while giving less recoil.

If we climb to 120 grain bullets, the 25/06 out of the manual will give me 3100 fps. the lowly 260 will only give me about 2950 to 3000. So we loose a hundred feet a second to the 25/06. But depending on how far you shoot, how much flatter will the 25 caliber actually travel? Not much I am sure. but 6.5 bullets also have the reputation of being a lot flatter shooting than the charts indicate.

So we lost 50 fps with 100 grain bullets and 100 fps with 120 grain bullets with the 260. Lets see what we loose with 125, or 130 gr or 140 grain bullets? Wait a minute, the 25/06 does not have available bullet weights that big?
Hmm, that would not be a fair contest if we tried to pull that on the 25/06 and put them at a fair disadvantage. Besides we know the 25/06 can do anything a 120 grain bullet that a 260 can do with the heavier bullets right?? Okay, sure.

160 grains, we won't even go there.

Lets take a look at Match and competiton bullets.
for 6.5 mm we have 107 gr, 120gr, 140 gr, 142 gr, 155 gr. Choices choices choices. Now what do we have available in 25 caliber? What do you mean only one?? That is not very fair to the 25/06 either.

You know when you really consider that the 260 has the unfair advantage of a much wider bullet selection, is much more efficient and uses a lot less powder to accomplish the same thing, works in a 22 inch barrel where the 25/06 will not ( skip in pistol and 18" or Rugers 16 inch 260 barrel) is generally more accurate ( as both the 308 based cases and the 6.5 cartridges are known for) I think it very unfair of any 260 fans to try and rap on the 25/06. Besides the 25/06 is a better cartridge because it has more bark, requires a longer barrel and uses more powder and all of us hunters know, Needing More makes us More Manly. That is why the 260 is for women, children and whimps.

I must be a whimp because I have 3 260s, and have no intention of buying a 25/06 or building a 6.5/06 or 6.5/284 either. My 260 will not do anything I ask of it, that my 7x57 or 30/06s won't do, maybe minus the recoil.

But if you could buy one of two cars, one went 140mph and the other went only 135mph, but the slower one was more easier to get around with, and used about 25% or more less gas, which one would you buy? Would the one that went 5 miles an hour faster on its top end make you feel more macho? Or Manly??

More is not better, it is just less efficient, and wears things out quicker.

I agree with Todd!

todbartell,

I'm not sure the word "better" really applies. I think the .260 may be more flexible because of a wider selection of bullet weights. As a gartridge for antelope, IMHO the .25-06 is difficult to improve on. For a broarder selection of game, I think the .260 may make a better pick. Have a great weekend.

Well, sounds like the 6.5s are interesting cartridges to say the least! I've already tried the 7mm-08 and yes it is good but i am wanting something different these days. I like all the good info that 'sea' provided on the 6.5s and I do tend to side with him on the more effecient cartridge designs being shooter friendly and giving up little to the long johns. The Ruger 77II in .260 is looking awful good. Only problem with the VLS is they quite making it in the 260 some time ago and now you have to choose between 6mm, 243, .22-250 or a .308! I noticed also that Remington used to make the BDL SS in the 260 a few years ago and now that one is not available either. Thanks for the good info.

Buzz: I sure do like the looks of that rifle you got there! Sometimes you pick the gun you like if you know what I mean - and all the caliber comparisons go out the window - or - am I wrong about that!?

seafire,
I started reading your post but did not get any further than the last paragraph. I shoot a 6,5x57 and did not want to end up thinking I have a 6,5x68. Which is basically what happens to your 6mm Remington, that thinks itself to be a .240 Weatherby Magnum.
Please take this as a friendly advise. There is only one way in which to get 3,300 fps from a 24 inch barreled 6mm Remington and that is with an excessive and dangerous amount on pressure. The relation between pressure and muzzle velocity might not be perfect, but there is no question as to wether they are strongly correlated, and there is nothing such as a free lunch.
The pressure of your combination may not be high enough as to blow up your gun at the first shot, but that is what will eventually happen.
Steel, under such stress, experiences fatigue and sooner or later there will be fireworks all over the place.
montero

oops!
my first line should have said "...any further than the first paragraph..."
montero

I like the .223 Rem for elephant, what could possibly be wrong with anything bigger?

Like I said....too good to die. Could it possibly rival the MatchKing thread? Nope, but maybe, just maybe, what if I used a Sierra HPBT in my 260? Hmmmmmm

To Mr. Montero:

I understand totally about too much pressure and its problems. However, if I can load a 6 mm Remington to 3300 fps, and reload that same piece of brass over 15 times and still have the primer go in without any signs of looseness, would that indicate to you that I am getting too much pressure or not?

I am not an armchair theorist, I actually work up loads and test them. I also consult a lot of manuals, and what use to be listed as totally safe 20 yrs ago is listed as DANGEROUS in today's lawyer driven society. I was hoping you European's might have escaped the insanity of the number of lawyers and their bright ideas that plague American Society.

Since you mentioned the 6 mm Rem, do you know what the SAAMI pressure limits are on that cartridge? 65000psi, same as a 270, or 300 Winchester or Weatherby.

When I had the barrel made, I also made up several dummy rounds with the bullets seated out.
I also used an action that had been a 30/06 before. So the chamber was made for a long seated bullet which produces a lot less pressure than a deeper seated one.

I also know the distance them to the lands and seat the bullet just before it touches the lands.

Therefore, my experiences is from hands on working with it, and chronographing worked up loads.

IMHO your response was made from the comfort of the chair in front of your computer, and not much more experience to draw upon before you made your statement.

I handload and shoot about 200 plus rounds a week. I also own about 15 different calibers on a regular basis, both at upper velocity and also at downloaded velocity (eg: 30/06, 180 grainers, 2000 fps for a good low recoil 200 yd load).

So in closing I might have some idea of what I am doing!