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Agree that the AR10 and being able to use 308 PMags is a huge driving force behind the 6.5 Creedmore fans. Also, a generation of shooter raised on .223s that complained about 308 recoil, to that crowd, any reduction is a welcome relief Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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The 338 LWMMG sounds like a good idea. | |||
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I think it's been hit on above - but with my .260 Rem I set 143 gr ELD-x bullets out to an O.A.L. of 2.885" for a 0.015" jump to the rifling (about 0.85" of bullet showing ahead of the case mouth), and a .308 size mag in an AR-10 won't handle that length. So the Creedmoor is a logical choice for a semi-auto. I get a case capacity edge doing it that way. If I had to set the bullet that much deeper I'd have to compress the powder quite a bit (I just hear a slight "crunch" now when seating). I very much like the .260 Rem. Mine's a Savage M11 action. IMHO among the very best whitetail cartridges for 0 to 350 yards. But a deer couldn't tell a .260R from a 6.5CM from a 6.5x55mm . . . from a 7-08, etc., etc. | |||
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Another point is sharp shouldered minimally tapered cases typically are less reliable in full auto weapons and in service field conditions. I know that this was a designated marksman/SOF idea, but military logistics being what it is, having a specialty weapon that cannot use standard service supply could be an issue. | |||
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Its the product of a good advertisement campaign for the most part..and its an excellent caliber for up to deer size aniamals, and will probably kill all manor of big game before its done, and it will do that.. I just don't need one yet!! Its not a miracle, its a nice caliber like so many others, some more powerful, some less, why anyone would hate a caliber I have no idea, guess that's why I hate the .243 Win!!!!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I don't hate the 6.5 creedmoor, my brother-in-law just bought one in a ruger American, we will start loading for it in the next week or so. but... I,m not gonna sell my 260 rem. and go get one, if you already have a 260. than you don't need a 6.5 creed. unless you just want the same performance from two different rounds.. | |||
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Mike, good luck trying to get 2582 fps out of a 200 gr. 308. 2400 would be closer to it. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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Oh, I think it is highly unlikely also but that is what Hodgdoon quotes for a 200 gr and a max load of their CFE223. I have a 1/2 lb left and at some point this summer I will run some tests. Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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BUT..  If you had an AR10 and wanted a bolt gun to go with it.....
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Once upon a time, I humped the Army's Vietnam Era sniper rifle, the accurized M-14. One factor in favor of the 6.5 is its inherent accuracy is better than the 7.62x51mm NATO. On average the 6.5 Creedmoor rounds are 35-40 grains lighter depending on bullet and compared powder weights. With the 6.5 Creedmoor you can use a more lightly built SASS than the present Knights product, and still not get so beat up by the recoil. Thus, you can carry more ammunition. That is an important consideration in the military. I don't think the Army will go for the 147 grain 6.5mm bullet. The latest 6.5 bullet designs with their high BCs cut through the wind better, easing the sniper's job. The bullets fly flatter, easing the snipers job. The Army's discussion is centered on their snipers. On the other end of the spectrum, the new Special Forces bolt action bullet of choice is the 300 Sloan/300 Norma, shooting 220 to 230-grain bullets. The machine gunners are testing the 338 Sloan/Norma. It will easily out range the 7.62x54R cartridge.  | |||
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This morning I tire kicked the shelves at a local guns and ammo selling place in the town next door and it occurred to me that this Creedmoor thing can not be all bad no matter what the usual nay sayers brigade say ! For one it has spurned a whole host of super accurate guns ! Everyone and their dog has suddenly cottoned on to the fact that the way business was done no longer flies ! 2 inches at 100 yards may be ok for some but this new wave demands better accuracy ! and they are producing accurate guns ! But not only that the ammo makers suddenly have brought out new lines of ammo ! Whereas some still chase velocity ( Super performance et al ) the new name of the game is precision and they come loaded with a plethora of new bullets... and off course older suspects typically seen in the long range game ! I was surprised to see the line up of available offerings in 6.5 creedmoor and the bullet choice is impressive. Then add to that the toys that make up much of the game like special scopes, range finders , ballistics calculators, mini weather stations....... Even saw two new gun mags specifically dealing with this " new genre " of shooting One thing is certain is that if it gets people out shooting and if these practical Sniper type competitions take off we are going to have a new batch of highly capable shooters and that can not be bad ! Bought these today, will see what they are capable of  | |||
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ALF, I believe you will be pleased with the performance of those bullets, I have been. They do like tight twists, but modern 6.5mm bores do tend to be tightly twisted (as am I). | |||
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Just a observation: For years we had expensive guns and cheap guns ! We generally equated accuracy / dependability etc etc with the expensive guns? Then up pops Savage and they upset the apple cart ! Other follow suit ! Ruger brings out their American and it outshoots the more expensive Hawkeye... We see Sauer doing the same offering for the mass market as opposed to their very very expensive 404 and the cheaper is as accurate as the more expensive model. Sako and Tikka same story ! Though technically two different guns the Tikka outshoots the Sako any day ! Now we are at the same situation with scopes. The big name high end scopes are off the charts with their prices and there are a number of affordable options out there that are just as good ? | |||
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Could you get a bullet swaging die made to swage. 264 down to .261? Can you form brass from another readily available cartridge, what is the case head diameter? She was only the Fish Mongers daughter. But she lay on the slab and said 'fillet' | |||
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I have been playing with the 6.5 Grendel for almost ten years now, starting with a few AR types, and finally got a nice little CZ 527 last year. My other 6.5 rifles are Swedish Mausers and honestly do not see the need for anything else. JJK | |||
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The Creed has to be a success its so close to a 250-3000 it can't be wrong.. It will be my next project if I ever get around to it.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Inside of 300 yards? Who cares... Out to 1,000? Eh... I've never seen a cartridge win a long range match. I've seen lots of shooters win long range matches. I've seen lots of .308 shooters win long range matches shooting against other shooters using supposedly superior cartridges. That's because the long range game isn't decided by BCs or SD's or muzzle velocities. Its won by shooters who know their load, their come ups, and their dope and can read wind and apply the right corrections. It matters not if you 6.5 is only blown off the target by 6 feet and my .308 is blown off the target by 8 feet at 1,000 yards. Because in either case we BOTH miss the target. And in either case you can either read the wind, apply the correction and hit the bull or you can't. Its not any harder than that. I've seen many Palma team shooters come to an unlimited class match using their .308 Palma rifles, open sights and 155 grain SMK's beat the snot out of guys using 7mm magnums on scoped rifles... Where the 6.5 might have a slight advantage is if you are shooting against someone and get caught up in a slight wind change when you send the bullet. He might drop two points and the guy with the 6.5 might only drop one. But again...in the course of a match...the real determining factor is the shooter not the cartridge, | |||
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Yes it is shooters that win matches not cartridges, BUT good shooters will pick cartridges that give them an advantage as well. If there is a mathematical advantage to use a 6.5 over a .308 then you can bet good shooters will migrate that direction in cartridge choice. | |||
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He who dopes the wind, wins. I've seen GI teams shoot possibles at 1000 yds using .308s with receiver sights. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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I would buy a creed. But I like the .308. I will never like another cartridge any better. Mostly cause I like old rifles. ...tj3006 | |||
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What I see from overhere the Creedmore holds nothing over the 6,5x55. Buy a standard Tikka or Sako huntingrifle and use Norma Diamond line target ammo and one has benchrest accuracy. One can not reload to get more accuracy. DRSS: HQ Scandinavia. Chapters in Sweden & Norway | |||
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Yep...take two equally talented high masters shooting against each other and on the same day at the same range at the same time and one is shooting a 6.5 and the other is shooting a .308 with the same load he's been shooting for 20 years and the poor 6.5 CR guy doesn't stand a chance...  | |||
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I watched Nancy Thompkins Gallagher shoot a 199 in a gusting 15-30 mph crosswind at the Rocky Mountain Long Range Championships about 20 years ago in Raton NM....she put 19 shots into a group the size of a baskeball using her .308 Palma rifle with iron sights....she was adding on and taking off 30-40 clicks of windage between shots! That lady can dope wind! | |||
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KY Nimrod you don't make any sense. You seem to be somewhat closed minded on the subject. First off I'm not "on" the 6.5 CM bandwagon but simply following some facts. Like I said before "if" there is an advantage to be had like less wind doping then expert competitive shooters will gravitate to that cartridge to take that advantage, it only makes sense and if it didn't then how come all the matches aren't still won with 45/70's? or 1903 Springfields shooting the grand old '06? See my point? The future holds records to be broken and long shots to be made, it is what happens, equipment is getting better and better, same with ammunition components. You can deny it but it is happening. | |||
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Doesn't appear like the 6.5 CM is taking over the long range matches based on this http://www.bergerbullets.com/S...ipment-list-open.pdf | |||
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and there is not even 1 .308 in there either! | |||
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I.have two 264 win mags ,three 260 Remington,one 6.5 jap .They are all fun to hunt with and shoot .. I am fixing to turn a old Ruger 77 .243 into a 260 Remington with a nice laminated stock .That will be my last rifle probably . I have used my 338 win.mag last 32 years and it's getting harder to shot a bunch . I can't wait to get this built to hunt with it will be awesome. | |||
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Blah blah blah blah....its all noise http://bulletin.accurateshoote...art-2-the-cartridge/ Dude uses a .243 Winchester to routinely win long range matches. He also burns out his barrels between 1200 and 1500 rounds. Doesn't matter he has sponsors and his own range and machine shop. So when his barrel burns out he can be back in business inside a week. Most shooters that puts you out of business for 6 weeks. That's an eternity if it happens in the middle of your season. When I was shooting heavliy I was easily going through 2500 rounds a year. Barrel life matters for mere mortals. I burned out 5 barrels shooting .308 in highpower and long range. I was getting around 5,000 rounds before the throats went south. Reports from the field are the 6.5 gets less than half the barrel life of a .308. If I was lucky I'd get 2 years out of a barrel before it wouldn't hold the ten ring any more. There's not a long range competitor alive that's any good that hasn't burned out a few barrels. How many barrels have you burned out at long range? You can put all the ballistics tables you want that show X Y or Z... Its mostly noise. For the shooters that can dope wind its not what wins matches. I've seen it myself time after time after time. Guys show up with a new caliber/gun and are certain they have bought themselves a long range game. Only to be repeatedly beaten by a "lesser" cartridge held by a better shot with years of range time with that gun/load. There was a small group of mediocre shooters who would routinely show up to matches with the hottest new cartridge or bullet. And not shoot it long enough to know anything before the next shiniest thing came along... Shooters win matches not cartridges... The cartridge is probably 10% of the deal. You can't buy a long range title. The .308 has one thing working against it and that's recoil. Which isn't as big a deal as most think in a 13 pound match rifle...especially since none of the long rage events are rapid fire timed event like the 200 and 300 yard stages of a national match course. WHich is why the 5.56 has taken over those events. Because the .308 is ballistically superior to most 5.56 loads THAT WILL CYCLE through and AR magazine... But the recovery time in the rapid fire events makes it harder to shoot as well as the 5.56... | |||
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I get it now, you don't want to be bothered with facts and like your discussions one way, "your way". No problem I'll back out now, my mistake I thought we were having adult discourse here, should have known better. | |||
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You want to argue ballistics tables...I'm simply giving you the facts about how real long range competitors look at things. I'll be the first to tell you I was a mediocre long range competitor because I just didn't do it enough compared to national match and service rifle competition--which I was pretty competitive in. When it comes to long range shooters the truth is the competant shooters simply don't geek out over ballistics tables and trying to get that extra 1/4 moa advantage on the guy next to you. Because where the rubber meets the road there's a lot more important things when it comes to putting together a good shooting game.... | |||
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Mechanical and technological advantage ! Name the sport or any field of human endeavor ! Whether you are at the lowest rung or at the top everyone seeks that edge ! That is the story of mankind's evolution. John Corner refers to it as the "optimum ballistics solution" Two issues at play. The optimum gun for a specific projectile ( ie the choice of a projectile to a purpose and you have to match a gun ( Chamberage) that would do it ) or the optimum ballistic solution for a specific gun. ie you have the gun system and you need to milk the most from it again to purpose ! This is how the war Against Germany was won ! Yes brave men had to physically do the job but they could do it because of mechanical advantage over the enemy ! | |||
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In the article I linked above John Whidden has won 4 long range titles with a .243 Win... Doesn't he know he could win more titles using a 6.5 Creedmore?  | |||
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Some things aren't readily apparent with ballistics tables. Here's an example. When I shot highpower I used the Sierra Match King 180's for my long range loads in my .308. They didn't make the 175 SMK at the time. The 180s worked great and then abruptly the 180s I was loading really started stinking up the place at 800-900...WTF? I soon realized that Sierra had changed the boattail design on the 180s. They put the same short boattail the 168 Sierra Match King has (which is also a miserable long range bullet) on their redesigned 180s... and it sucked...but on paper it was a good bullet... If you look at the 190 grain .308 Sierra Match king (which is what I ended up using after the 180 redesign) you will see it has the long boattail design of the old 180 SMK...and since then they introduced the 175 SMK which also has the long boattail profile and is a superb 1,000 yard bullet. On paper the 180 with a short boattail should have been a great bullet. In reality its a goat. So just because something looks good on paper doesn't mean its a good performer in actual application. Bullets actually have flight characteristics that ballistics tables won't reflect. Lastly, Here's a guy I used to shoot with when I lived out west. He's won many state and regional titles and has been on numerous US Palma teams...sage advice. http://bulletin.accurateshoote...rs-larry-bartholome/ | |||
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And to think it only took US shooters 100+ years to learn what the Germans, Austrians and other Europeans knew 100+ years ago; the 6.5 caliber is a fine caliber. I don't hate the Creedmoor cartridge any more than I hate a framing hammer. The whole concept of hating inanimate objects is rather foreign to me. Come to think of it, hate is foreign to me, period. The Creed is a fine 6.5 cartridge. So is the Swede, the 6.5 Mauser, the Mannlicher, 260 Remington and a host of others. Some will achieve higher velocities than others, all are "accurate enough" given a decent platform to perform from. The hype about the Creedmoor cartridge sometimes is a bit annoying. It's good, certainly popular and readily available and comparatively economical in both rifles and ammo but, the reality is it doesn't do anything half a dozen other 6.5's haven't been doing for a long time. Ballistics are ballistics and I cannot believe, given a good barrel and action, any 6.5 bullet at whatever velocity cares which case it was fired from. I don't want a Creedmoor but it isn't because of the cartridge. I have a perfectly fine 1903 Mannlicher/Schoenauer that will do anything I need done with a 6.5. Were I still shooting long range with smokeless powder rifles I believe the Creedmoor would warrant a serious consideration but, knowing me I'd pick something older just cuz..... Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me". John 14:6 | |||
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I don't doubt the Creed is a great deer rifle. and would make a great go to hunting rifle..but too light for "trophy" hunting elk IMO..Fine for cows and meat hunting with proper bullets and up to 200 yards, just like my favorite, the 250-3000 and a host of other calibers, the Creed fall into this category..Id sure hunt elk with it under my guide lines..It seems to be up for a fine future. How can anyone hate a caliber? For larger male big game animals on this continent, I like the .338 Win. its just about the perfect elk rifle. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Shooting big game at 1000 yards is not for such calibers as the creedmore and many others IMO. That's just BS...If one must hunt at those distances then use a 404 Jefferys case and the 200 gr. Noslers, and I don't approve of that, but its legal....The problem is Ive seen too many distance shooters at work, they only film the good shots and they hide the wounded, not all do this of course but many do....end of story. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I shot and reloaded 308 for several years. The 168 grain Hornady A-Max in a Savage Model 10 HB would out shoot most rifles at the range. Then I switched to 260 REM and had even more fun.[and less recoil] Shot that great cartridge for a few years. The I switched again to the 22-250 Savage 12 and having even more fun. [LOT Less Recoil!] And now the 224 Valkyrie for even lots more fun. Notice the pattern here? If one is shooting PAPER ONLY at long distances then the 22 CF rifles are a no brainer. Less powder and less recoil = More Fun. The reality is that most shooters don't have access to a 1000 yard range and about 500-600 yards is the limit at a lot of ranges. Look at the BC's for a 90 grain 224 bullet and you will see why they perform so well. The 224 Valkyrie has a very SIMILAR TRAJECTORY to the 6.5 Creedmore without the recoil.The bullet is still traveling supersonic past 1000 yards in testing. Hornady has just introduced the 88 grain ELD that should perform very well in 1:7 twist barrels. I agree there is a lot of hype out there concerning the 224 VAL but the physics numbers don't lie. I can see this cartridge in a Savage bolt rifle with 26" HB with 1:6.5 Twist delivering insane accuracy.A 22-250 with the same barrel twist would also be outstanding. Some Days You Are the Windshield and Some Days You Are the Bug. | |||
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Not a single Leupold scope Smelly ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Why are you pimping the Valkyrie so hard? It's barely out and not loaded in any commercial bolt action rifles. I've also heard the initial 7 twist is not fast enough and that it overpressure and hell on primer pockets. It's off to a shaky start no matter how much hype the marketers shove down our throat. IMHO, a 6mm Valkyrie would have been a much better introduction. You already gave a plethora of long range bullets and 6mm has been long range darling for years | |||
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Maybe I missed it. What, again, are the ballistic differences (shooting the same bullet) between the Creedmore and the Swede 6.5 x 55? | |||
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