No Pissing here, Gentlemen

I need some REAL help...PLEASE


My son and I have a Montana Muley/WT deer hunt planned for next year...I just got the word

It seems 300 yard shots will be the norm.

We have...


(2) Rem 700 BDL 270W shooting 130gr Win. PP

(2) 6.5x55mm rifles...
Ruger MkII and a Savage both shooting 120gr Rem CL's



My newly acquainted friend there [Montana]shoots a Rem 700 BDL 25-06 26" barrel and Sierra 117 SPBT that kills them deader than dead at 300-350yds easily...All these years there he's had them all drop nothing but STRAIGHT DOWN


My question is...

Should I buy a 25-06 rifle too for me and my son to shoot at these typical ranges of 300-350 yards???

Shouldn't I be able to take my 6.5x55mm or my 270W and see that same type of dramatic kills at those ranges???

What am I giving up to the 25-06 using the cartridges and bullets I'm using???

I'm not a ballistics expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I would like you folks here who have REAL world experience to take me to SCHOOL on this, please!

I want to have confidence in my weapon of choice
and start practicing at these distances right away!

If I'm only giving up and inch or so downrange, then I'll stick with what we have and get out there and work up some loads that will SCREAM without bending anything...

Desperately need your comments about my dilemna, if I don't need to spend the money then I won't as times are tough right now.

However, for this once in a lifetime opportunity
I want to be perfectly sure our rifle selection and bullet weight are optimal for these distances!...Thanks

Any loads for our rifles that we should try and of course work up to...would be even SUPER too!!!



.

JMO, anything the 25-06 can do, the .270 Win can do better. Thats what I would take.

Roland,

You are set perfectly for you and your son. Take the guns you have and enjoy Montana. I will be hunting there next fall as well. What week and general area maybe we can meet for supper?

ddj

quote:

Originally posted by Late-Bloomer:
300 yard shots are the norm.

We have...

(2) Rem 700 BDL 270W shooting 130gr Win. PP

(2) 6.5x55mm rifles...Ruger MkII and a Savage both shooting 120gr Rem CL's

Should I buy a 25-06 rifle too for me and my son to shoot at these typical ranges of 300-350 yards?

You don't "need" new rifles, you just need to practice with your existing rifles at the anticipated ranges. $0.02

I agree with the above. The calibers you already own will do fine, provided ya'll practice enough to do your part. I'm also assuming that your rifles are capable of decent accuracy. I'd want no more than 1 MOA for over 300.

quote:

Originally posted by Late-Bloomer:

What am I giving up to the 25-06 using the cartridges and bullets I'm using???

I want to have confidence in my weapon of choice
and start practicing at these distances right away!

If I'm only giving up and inch or so downrange, then I'll stick with what we have and get out there and work up some loads that will SCREAM without bending anything...

if I don't need to spend the money then I won't as times are tough right now.

I want to be perfectly sure our rifle selection and bullet weight are optimal for these distances!...

I don't know about the "screaming" cartridges, bending stuff, and "perfectly sure" is a subjective thing, but I do know that the 270 and 6.5x55 will trump the 25-06 for what you are trying to do.

You have practically answered your own question. "start practicing at these distances right away!" Therein is the answer to your delemma. IMO, buying a 25-06 is not an answer, but another problem. You already have the answer with the rifles you own, if they will shoot accurately enough for 300 yd shots. And you don't need screeming handloads. Normal factory loads or reasonable handloads are plenty good.

KB

You are already set. Like nordrseta noted, just get in plenty of practice, and you'll be just fine.

I have to agree with the others. There is nothing the 25-06 can do that the two you have won't do better. Load them for accuracy, not necessarily speed, and go hunting.

I knew I could count on you gents...

Thank you all...

I've learned alot here in such a short time and consider my AR FAMILY part of who I am as a rifleman and hunter....Many thanks!


You see as a Late-Bloomer to sport hunting, I got involved only a couple years ago as a way to experience the great outdoors with my only son...He was 18 and I was 46...

Today, only 2 years later we have amassed a total of 26 trophy animals ranging from 135 yards to 275 yards with our 30-06 rifles!

Here in our native Hawaiian Islands we have accounted for 14 animals..rams, goats, and pigs...haven't had a chance at deer YET!

Last year we scraped and saved every penny to go to Namibia for a 7 days plains game hunt ...where we accounted for another 12 trophy animals...(3)Kudu, (3)Oryx, Impala, Warthogs, Hartmann's Zebra, Blesbok, Baboon

And two years and 26 animals later...ALL ONE-SHOT kills I might add...because of alot of regimented practicing...We have had a BLAST and have created some INCREDIBLE MEMORIES afield together as a Father/Son Team....as we ONLY hunt together is our pact and adventure...

We have about 16 hunting rifles in various calibers and now we will venture from the trustworthy 30-06 rifles and start shooting some lighter, flatter shooting calibers like our 270W and/or 6.5x55mm or even our 7RM for this NW Montana hunt...

Thanks to all for giving me the confidence to go with what I got...I guess recently I've become OBSESSED with desiring a couple of 25-06 rifles too and why I had posed our dilemna here!
But finances are tough right now real TOUGH...so its great to hear from you all that what we have will be COOL...

Now on to load development...anyone care to share powders I may want to look into...

270W???

6.5x55MM???

I was thinking IMR 4350 cause that's what I got on the shelf, but will most definitely consider others...

Aloha!

Ro

Mahalo. I used to live on Oahu (in a small house about 1/2 block off Kalakau Blvd, directly north from the Moana/Surfrider) but absolutely love all the upper plains states from the Dakotas and Nebraska westward through Montana and Wyoming. I think you'll lose your heart to that lovely area.

I Agree that the .270 is at least as good as, probably better than, the .25-06.

Will only add that in my opinion the .30-06 with 130-to-165 grain bullets is as good as both the .25-06 AND the .270 for deer, antelope, etc., at the distances you expect to shoot. I have and use all three (and the 6.5x55 too), and would not hesitate to use any one of the four for that work.


Am not saying you should take the '06 over the others...am just saying you have quite a few rifles, ANY of which is more than adequate for your upcoming trip.

Thanks for the comments AC...I appreciate it

I'm from Oahu but HUNT on the Big Island and soon Moloka'i for Axis deer and Lana'i for deer and Mouflon Rams as well...some time will also head over to Ni'ihau for Polynesian boars with our friend who has access there!

Aloha!

Ro

Latebloomer-

I forgot to add that a good deer load for my .270s is any cup'n core conventional 130 grain bullet powered by 58-60 grains of H-4831.
One of my .270s actually likes 62 grains of H-4831 and the 130 gr. Hornady spire points best, but it will only take that load in W-W brass...I can't get that much powder into some other makes of cases.

No matter which cases you use, I'd make sure to use the "H" version of 4831, and I'd start at around 57 or so grains and work my way up or down as the rifle indicates.

4350 also works well in the .270, but I can't advise you on loads there without digging through some old files. When I was young I got a couple of hundred pounds of the original H-4831. By the time I used it all up, I was in the H-4831 habit, and just never got back to 4350.

Roland,

Your .270 is perfect, and gives up nothing to its little brother .25-06. While the 6.5 Swede would be okay, I'd much rather have your Sako .30-06 loaded with a slick 150 grain bullet at 3,000 fps. My son shoots his Sako '06 loaded with 150 Nosler B.Tips exclusively for medium game hunting and has taken whitetails at over 400 yards with it (he also took a mule deer with the same load the only time he has hunted this species). This load has accounted for big feral hogs, pronghorns, and countless coyotes and whitetails. The '06 is as good a performer at extended yardages as its smaller descendants -- they just don't deliver as much energy.

Steve I believe you just made my son's day...

I'll let him know as that L61R has been tough to pry out of his hands...

He's real comfortable with it... Of course I'll let him decide...

Thanks for the reply buddy!

AC,...Right On...Thanks again!!!

I've hunted Mle Deer most of my life and have had only two shots that were at 250 yards or more. One was at 250 yards laser measured and the other was many yers ago at 427 paces. Distance was paced off by three people and their numbers averaged.The longer shot was taken with a 20" barreled .308 Win. and the 250 yard shot with another .308 and 18.5" barrel. The long shot was in north central Nevada and the shorter of the two long shots up in the Kaibab National Forest of Arizona.
I gues my point is even with my fairly poor stalking skills compared to some most of my Mule Deer and California Blacktail Deer were taken usually about 100 yards or less and some radically less.
Maybe conditions where you will be hunting will require longer range shooting. I have not hunted there but I still think one should be able to get closer when possible.
With that said, I still practice are as long a range as I thin I might have to shoot which means when I draw area 1 for elk here in Arizona, I practice to 500 meters on the silhouette range from sitting and kneeling positions. In area 1, the elk head out into miles wide open spaces where stalking can be very difficult and they can see you coming from one hell of a long way off.
Your rifles will be just fine and even the 30-06 with a good 165 gr. bullet load will be just fine. Just get the practice in and go with the feeling that you've done all you can to make the shot when the time comes.
Paul B.

Thanks Paul...I appreciate you taking the time to share...

Just today , the .270, Stevens Mod. 200 was doing great at 50, 200, 300, and 400 yds. The .270 as well as the 6.5x55 are more than capable of delivering killing power at these distances and with enough shooting for familiarization you're a shoe-in. roger

Thanks "bartsche" that really helps us newbies gain the confidence we need with these calibers at those distances...as anything else its practice, practice, practice...

We're only 7 minutes away from the islands only shooting range so we have no excuses...I'll start rolling'em...

Thanks!

Roland while everyone is singing the praises of the 270 here...
you already have the 6.5 x 55...

for what you are talking about.. a handloaded 120 grain ballistic tip, or a 125 partition at 3000 to 3100 fps, will be more than fine..

a 140 grainer at 2700 to 2800 is also a flat shooter...

The 6.5 x 55 can be handloaded to compete with a 25/06 any day..

if you are shooting antelope in open country, the 6.5 can be loaded with 100 grain Hornady SPs, or partitions or ballistic tips.. and out of the Ruger you can run them at 3400 fps, while a 25/06 will run a 100 grainer at about 3300 fps..

if you want some load data to work on in your Swede, PM me.. I don't want to invite this becoming a pissing match, and have folks showing reload data that a Swede can't be loaded to those MVs, when you have a Ruger, not an old pre WW ONE Swede...

I run a 260 with a 22 inch barrel to 3350 fps all the time with a 100 grain bullet.. so that MV or squeezing another 50 fps out of the little bigger Swede case isn't really a big accmplishment..

In my 260 Ruger those loads are light enough recoiling that I don't lose site picture in the scope when set at 4 power..

HAVE taken several deer at 300 yds plus with that load, and they dropped on the spot..

finally I think that 6.5 Swede just happens to be a more naturally accurate cartridge also..

Well, I didn't realize you had a 30-06 also. That is what I shoot for all of my whitetail hunting and it does quite well at the distances you mention. My son (who is 14) shoots a .270, and it works just fine also. Myself, I prefer the heaver bullets of the 30-06, especially on bigger bucks that are all rutted up. That old '06 has killed alot of game and I have alot of faith in it.

Jack'O Conners .270 load was 60 grains of H4831 with a 130 bullet. That can be pretty warm in some rifles so work up, but it would shoot in most of them as well. It's for sure where I would start looking.

As far as the range you mention, I assume it is the same one I used to shoot on out past Hunama Bay. I sent lots of bullets downrange there back in the early 90's, I spent 3 years at Pearl. One thing for sure on that one, you get used to shooting in the wind, but it's always from the same direction. Do they still have the steel plate at about 450 or so?

Late-Bloomer ----- If I were you I would do one of two things, shoot the .270 and don't look back, or try a .270 WSM. I am getting 3425 to 3462 fps with 130 grain bullets, and 3260 to 3300 fps out of 140 grain bullets and consider the difference enough for it to matter. I took a large 5X5 Muley with mine at 285 yards and he never knew what hit him. Good luck and good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Roland while everyone is singing the praises of the 270 here...
you already have the 6.5 x 55...

for what you are talking about.. a handloaded 120 grain ballistic tip, or a 125 partition at 3000 to 3100 fps, will be more than fine..

a 140 grainer at 2700 to 2800 is also a flat shooter...

The 6.5 x 55 can be handloaded to compete with a 25/06 any day..

if you are shooting antelope in open country, the 6.5 can be loaded with 100 grain Hornady SPs, or partitions or ballistic tips.. and out of the Ruger you can run them at 3400 fps, while a 25/06 will run a 100 grainer at about 3300 fps..

if you want some load data to work on in your Swede, PM me.. I don't want to invite this becoming a pissing match, and have folks showing reload data that a Swede can't be loaded to those MVs, when you have a Ruger, not an old pre WW ONE Swede...

I run a 260 with a 22 inch barrel to 3350 fps all the time with a 100 grain bullet.. so that MV or squeezing another 50 fps out of the little bigger Swede case isn't really a big accmplishment..

In my 260 Ruger those loads are light enough recoiling that I don't lose site picture in the scope when set at 4 power..

HAVE taken several deer at 300 yds plus with that load, and they dropped on the spot..

finally I think that 6.5 Swede just happens to be a more naturally accurate cartridge also..

Hi John, I'll send you a PM and interested in seeing your load data for the 100 grainer...However, I'm hunting Mulies and White-tails and if we take it I'd like to use the 120gr Rem CL....Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
Well, I didn't realize you had a 30-06 also. That is what I shoot for all of my whitetail hunting and it does quite well at the distances you mention. My son (who is 14) shoots a .270, and it works just fine also. Myself, I prefer the heaver bullets of the 30-06, especially on bigger bucks that are all rutted up. That old '06 has killed alot of game and I have alot of faith in it.

Jack'O Conners .270 load was 60 grains of H4831 with a 130 bullet. That can be pretty warm in some rifles so work up, but it would shoot in most of them as well. It's for sure where I would start looking.

As far as the range you mention, I assume it is the same one I used to shoot on out past Hunama Bay. I sent lots of bullets downrange there back in the early 90's, I spent 3 years at Pearl. One thing for sure on that one, you get used to shooting in the wind, but it's always from the same direction. Do they still have the steel plate at about 450 or so?

Yes, we love the 30-06 too!

However, on this particular hunt we're desiring to shoot a smaller caliber instead...got to bloody some other rifles...LOL

Probably will be going with the 270W shooting the 130gr Win Power-Points or 6.5x55mm shooting 120 gr Rem CL....

Yes, I live right there next to Hanauma Bay!
That's the range and they still have that 450yd gong, along with the steel plates at 235yds, 300yds, etc.

The wind is a good factor there as its always blowing at different speeds, I like that as it gives me some experience in calculating the drift for my different cartridges downrange...

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
Late-Bloomer ----- If I were you I would do one of two things, shoot the .270 and don't look back, or try a .270 WSM. I am getting 3425 to 3462 fps with 130 grain bullets, and 3260 to 3300 fps out of 140 grain bullets and consider the difference enough for it to matter. I took a large 5X5 Muley with mine at 285 yards and he never knew what hit him. Good luck and good shooting.

So far the 270 is getting the nod with the 130 grainer....but we'll see as I love that 6.5 and I need to settle down on which and COMMIT!!!

Once I commit then its no problem...

quote:

Shouldn't I be able to take my 6.5x55mm or my 270W and see that same type of dramatic kills at those ranges???

Both of these cartridges will either match or better the .25-06.

The 6.5 X 55 with 120 grain bullets will equal the .25-06 with the same bullet weight. At a bit over 3,000 FPS (handloaded) the 6.5 X 55 is an awesome deer killer! (and there's no real need for more bullet)

BTW, when it comes to mule deer, I can't think of a better cartridge then the .270 Winchester. No matter what!

quote:

Originally posted by rolltop:

quote:

Shouldn't I be able to take my 6.5x55mm or my 270W and see that same type of dramatic kills at those ranges???

Both of these cartridges will either match or better the .25-06.

The 6.5 X 55 with 120 grain bullets will equal the .25-06 with the same bullet weight. At a bit over 3,000 FPS (handloaded) the 6.5 X 55 is an awesome deer killer! (and there's no real need for more bullet)

rolltop-

POINT BLANK...that's what I needed to here here straight-up about this comparison with my choice of bullet....thanks for hitting the NAIL on the HEAD...BINGO...

quote:

Originally posted by rolltop:
BTW, when it comes to mule deer, I can't think of a better cartridge then the .270 Winchester. No matter what!

Another BINGO brother!...as my son and I have just decided...the 270W shooting 130 grainers gets the nod...

No looking back...FULLY COMMITTED and ready for load development!

May I ask here and I'll put it in the reloading forum as well...your Pet loads 270W/130 grainers...just out of curiousity!

Thanks to all that have stayed with me on this thread..I really appreciate sitting around the campfire with y'all here and I'm grateful for the discussion...it's been a wonderful learning experience for a noob like me...

good advice above; my mule deer/antelope experience in Montana is under 300 yards, consistently. You can have a longer shot, of course.

tin can...that's what I was hoping myself, but my buddy says its not the case for him on the high plains where he hunts...he said 300 yards is easily the norm and sometimes on out even further...My son and I will practice on out to 450 yds as that's the furthest gong on our range...

That said, it doesn't mean I will CARELESSLY attempt the shot if the conditions aren't perfect right...I have no problem backing down...Hey the deer has to win too sometimes...

I just want to be prepared to take those 300-350 yds when those opportunities present itself with FULL CONFIDENCE and COMMIT...
if not, then I need to back-off and I have no problem doing that!

We'll practice for sure, we aren't only hunters but my son and I are shooters as well and looking forward to the training...he knows dad will run it like boot camp again this year...I keep telling him it's half the fun...

Thanks again for sharing!

+1 on whatever the 25-06 does the .270 does better and possibly same can be said of what the .270 does the 30-06 does better. If it aint broke don't fix it---you already have 30-06. Now if maybe you are trying to convince your wife you need another gun---I agree you need another gun.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
...Now if maybe you are trying to convince your wife you need another gun---I agree you need another gun.

If I were to buy another rifle, it sure as hell wouldn't be a 25-06!! That said, you've got what you need, just practice, practice, practice. From field positions. Also, get you some bi-pods or shooting sticks and learn to use them. Which ones is best will set off a fire storm.

You're bringing back some memories now Late-Bloomer. There used to be some bowling pins set out there somewhere around 300 or so, they were hanging up from a scrubby tree and would swing if you hit them. Man I miss the saltwater fishing though, just thinking about some Mahi-Mahi makes my mouth water. I was single when I was out there, had some good times. Never got to do any hunting though, wish I had.

The 130gr 270 is a great choice.

Just practice a bunch at 300 and 400 yards.

If you are shooting deer chest sized groups, then you are good to go.

You and your son should be fine with your existing rifles. If you have some extra cash it should be used for the best optics you can afford on the rifles if you don't have good glass on both rifles already. Good luck out east.

Late Bloomer congratulations on your wonderful adventures. I like the 130 grain bullets in the 270 winchester, the Nosler Accubond flys very well for me with a stiff charge of H4831 short cut.

If you want to try something new and you have the time buy some of the Barnes 110 grain TSX and put 59 grains of H4350 under it, load it to the SAMI length and try it out on paper. At 3400 FPS it will out do your new friends 25-06. I have been wanting to try that load but have not had the occasion to do so..perhaps I can live vicariously thru your adventures!

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
If I were to buy another rifle, it sure as hell wouldn't be a 25-06!! That said, you've got what you need, just practice, practice, practice. From field positions. Also, get you some bi-pods or shooting sticks and learn to use them. Which ones is best will set off a fire storm.

Yep, we'll be on our bi-pods, and I've been looking for a good pair of shooting sticks too

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
You're bringing back some memories now Late-Bloomer. There used to be some bowling pins set out there somewhere around 300 or so, they were hanging up from a scrubby tree and would swing if you hit them. Man I miss the saltwater fishing though, just thinking about some Mahi-Mahi makes my mouth water. I was single when I was out there, had some good times. Never got to do any hunting though, wish I had.

Good times indeed...

No bowling pins anymore, but the Mahi-Mahi is still """Broke da'Mout ONO-LICIOUS""" bruddah...

Here's one for the GOOD TIMES