Deer season starts in a little over 2 weeks. I have used a 223 for the last several years, and will be doing so again. I will use 60 grain nosler partitions and 55 grain BT. Would it take video, pictures of the aftermath, or an eye witness to sway someone?

Why worry about it? If the 223 works for you and it’s legal and you feel comfortable with your choice of hunting rounds, fine. Why would any of this back biting, name calling, and anger bother you? No one is forced to read the thread.

Some people have their opinions on what is adequate or proper and no amount of arguing is going to change their minds one way or the other. If people want to argue about it, let them argue. After some of the fights I’ve seen, these guys are never going to be friends anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by Rine Everett:
Deer season starts in a little over 2 weeks. I have used a 223 for the last several years, and will be doing so again.

OK roger

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Why worry about it? If the 223 works for you and it’s legal and you feel comfortable with your choice of hunting rounds, fine. Why would any of this back biting, name calling, and anger bother you? No one is forced to read the thread.

Some people have their opinions on what is adequate or proper and no amount of arguing is going to change their minds one way or the other. If people want to argue about it, let them argue. After some of the fights I’ve seen, these guys are never going to be friends anyway.

One of the best posts on the subject ever.

Thanks Mike

quote:

One of the best posts on the subject ever.

Actually - yes, it is!

Gidday Guys,

Sense at last. Don't worry about things you can't change, change the things you can.

If someone takes a deer with a 223 how does it effect you if you think he shouldn't. It's up to you, you can get wound up and you don't feel good or you can go, "Gee I wouldn't do that but good on ya!" and leave feel ok.

It's your decision whether you want to feel good or bad. Make your own decision.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Why worry about it? If the 223 works for you and it’s legal and you feel comfortable with your choice of hunting rounds, fine. Why would any of this back biting, name calling, and anger bother you? No one is forced to read the thread.

Some people have their opinions on what is adequate or proper and no amount of arguing is going to change their minds one way or the other. If people want to argue about it, let them argue. After some of the fights I’ve seen, these guys are never going to be friends anyway.

Hard to believe guys on a gun site would have strong opinions huh?


I stayed plum out of it! My momma woulda been so proud .
Didn't even bother reading it as far as that goes. That many posts in that fast a succession on that kinda topic can't bode well to us peace-makers of the earth.

Anyone here ever hunt cape buffalo with a .17 Remington ??

the 223 and deer threads are an annual event on these forums...

more of the content is guys slandering each other for their opinions than discussing the merits of the topic at hand..

my opinion is that a hunter knowing his equipment and both ITs and HIS capabilities that bring home the game....

For once, I would just like to see an honest bullet performance results thread. No BS opinions or name calling, etc., just who used what bullet at what impact speed and how it worked. I have wanted to post that topic up several times in the last few weeks but I haven't because I know it will just degenerate into a mud slinging contest, and we have plenty of those. It is a shame those interested in the subject cannot even get any input from other interested shooters without the naysayers clogging up the thread. JMO.

So true, but it ain't gonna happen. Some people believe they need to push thier beliefs on you you and it's always going to be this way. It's the Internet and not really a big deal one way or the other. Just continue to do what you know works for you.

In the mean time I've got some 62gr TSX's over 24.5gr of Ramshot TAC I need to go test today. I was really hoping my custom .223 mini mauser was going to be ready this year but it's not so I'll have to settle on my AR-15 for another year. I've got the scope setup for Sierra 69gr HPBT MatchKings right now. I'm hoping the POI isn't that much different.

Hopefully the rifle will be finished in time for some cool weather coyote hunting! Here's where it is now. I'm very excited about this one!




Terry

The 223 vs. deer post comes up every year if not sooner. People are going to conitue to believe what they want. If they want to think anything under a 30 cal bounces off deer let them. We know the truth!

Terry,

James is doing a fine job with that rifle. Once again you have outdone yourself. My hat is off to you.



ddj

That thread is absolute trash. It's more about bickering, pissing and moaning about what someone else is doing. LET IT GO!!

quote:

Originally posted by 30378:
That thread is absolute trash. It's more about bickering, pissing and moaning about what someone else is doing. LET IT GO!!

Aint' that the truth!!!

Would I pick a 223 for deer? - NO

Have I seen deer killed with the 223? - Yes, 9 one shot kills

This is just my perspective.

If I was going on an out of state mule deer hunt where a trophy was possible, I would take a 270, 7x57 or 30-06 ect. IF I have been collecting preference points, I like a little larger margin for error.

If I was hunting where any buck will do or a meat hunt, I've taken a 223.

ddj

And here we go again. The first half dozen post made perfect sense. Then a .223 shooter came in with a chip on his shoulder and things started downhill. Any minute now, HC is gonna show up and things will follow their usual pattern.

Use what you want to use. No body really cares. Or very few. Not me anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by montdoug:
"If a man buys a rifle at a gun show and his wife doesn't know it"...Did he really buy a rifle?
Firearm Philosophy 101. montdoug

Nope, the truck needed a new clutch plus he had to pay for a tow truck.

quote:

Anyone here ever hunt cape buffalo with a .17 Remington ??

Let me fix that for you:

Anyone here ever hunt cape buffalo with a .17 Remington .45-70 ??

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement!Any other questions? GHD

I am of the "who cares" side of things.

That said the annual drama regards .223 vs. WT deer is a lot of fun. It takes on almost a religious fervor! The anti 223 crowd still believes that the earth rotates around the sun, and likes the idea of burning heretics at the stake. The anti 223 crowd, for instance are a classic example of why religious entities should not have power to enforce their beliefs.

So forget about any proof you might offer as even if they personally saw the shooting of 100 WT bucks with a .223 and they each went into someone’s freezer with no more issues than the one might find with a 30-06, they would still not believe you as it threatens their core belief.

quote:

Originally posted by Rine Everett:
Deer season starts in a little over 2 weeks. I have used a 223 for the last several years, and will be doing so again. I will use 60 grain nosler partitions and 55 grain BT. Would it take video, pictures of the aftermath, or an eye witness to sway someone?

I have a question for you. Why are you trying to sway me? I could care less what U use. Sounds like you're as guilty as those you're trying to sway. You're trying to convince them while they are trying to convince you..???
I understand Atlatl's work too...

As to the original question of this thread......... If Milo Hansen would pony on up and admit that he secretly used his .22 Hornet to kill that big buck because he felt that by taking a .223 that day would have been a bit of overkill!


If the argument is that the .223 isn't enough caliber/cartridge to effectively kill a 150-200 lb. thin skinned deer; then it would also apply to other dangerous thin skinned game that is hunted every day in other not so nice places in the world.


In most states still, the question is moot as .243/6mm is the low standard to hunt big game. Without the latest incarnation of very, very, very, good controlled expansion bullets in the .223 and smaller, this probably wouldn't even be discussed. As it is, and just my .02 worth; I don't think that the 40 grain ballistic tip would be much of a big game bullet. On the other hand, what would be so different between a 75 gr. controlled expansion bullet in .223 (.224) and say, a 100 gr. soft point in the .243? The point is given that most .243's will shoot the 100 gr. and you would have to have the right barrel on the .223 to shoot the 75. Is it the best? Almost arguably not, but for the man who has only one rifle and it happens to be a 1-8 twist; or faster AR; then it could be a viable venison provider.


Now to open up another whole can of worms: just how far in yards/ metres, would it be viable for a deer cartridge?


Oh well, just the ramblings of a down in the back and too wet to cut corn, farmer on a Fri. morn. Regards to all who shoot white-tailed deer with anything from .223 to .375. All is ask is "Please don't miss and please send someone out here who can shoot "thousands"; we're a bit overrun with them at the moment.

I posted this to draw out the 223 haters. The next time one of the 223 haters post that it is inadequate, I will rip them for not saying what it would take to learn. I was willing to even let one go with me to watch, but since none of them even posted up, they now have no right to talk about a 223 being inadequate.

Update from the ranch: 2 doe have been jumping the fence into the wheat field 168 yards from the blind 30-35 minutes before sunset everyday for the last week. if they do that in 8 days, I will have meat in the freezer. Rumor has it that "someone" saw a buck chasing these 2 doe's last week but I havn't seen it... If it is true, then the rut started a week later than normal (45 miles south of San Angelo/ Central/West Texas). This means that the second rut will occur the week of Thanksgiving instead of a week before...

quote:

Originally posted by jfromswk:
Now to open up another whole can of worms: just how far in yards/ metres, would it be viable for a deer cartridge?


Oh well, just the ramblings of a down in the back and too wet to cut corn, farmer on a Fri. morn. Regards to all who shoot white-tailed deer with anything from .223 to .375. All is ask is "Please don't miss and please send someone out here who can shoot "thousands"; we're a bit overrun with them at the moment.

For me the range is 200 maybe 250.

I might take the 470 NE as well and see what happens, No one can accuse me of being under gunned then huh?

quote:

Originally posted by Rine Everett:

quote:

Originally posted by jfromswk:
Now to open up another whole can of worms: just how far in yards/ metres, would it be viable for a deer cartridge?


Oh well, just the ramblings of a down in the back and too wet to cut corn, farmer on a Fri. morn. Regards to all who shoot white-tailed deer with anything from .223 to .375. All is ask is "Please don't miss and please send someone out here who can shoot "thousands"; we're a bit overrun with them at the moment.

For me the range is 200 maybe 250.

I might take the 470 NE as well and see what happens, No one can accuse me of being under gunned then huh?

I've got a .577, I'll be a better deer hunter than you!...

But seriously. I've shot a lot of animals with very little tracking. .223 on deer is vary dependent on shooter and circumstances as well as weather, for that matter. We've all had successful shots undergunned and got away with it and we've all been overgunned and missed.

Hopefully, our discretion gets better as we age as to if the safety ticks to the off position.

One of the best trophies I ever took I took with a wrong rifle for game, too small, and everything worked out and it was all cake and lager all around and "he's a master hunter" and sometimes I lay awake at night when you have those moments you can't sleep and rethink the shot and think that if I had had that chance for my best trophy of that era today I probably would have passed it up.

There's no easy answer. Where I live in Texas, I've seen 8 pointers that barely tipped 120lbs on the scale at 25 yards. .223 fine, headshots fine, whatever. I've been out hunting hard and had the wrong rifle for something I had a tag/permissions for and sometimes I have shot and sometimes I haven't and at times I was lucky there wasn't a wind gust at the wrong time.

Follow your heart and try and do the best job you can as a hunter is all I know. And yes, I KNOW culling isn't hunting. You can take a 800lb hog in the barn with a .22LR but I wouldn't advise it for javelina hunting and they aren't even that big of animals...

I am sick of the backbiting and arguments though. People are going to do what they will, hopefully they make the right choice. This post brought to you by actually re-reading the .223 threads and it took 2 glasses of bushmills with a splash of water to make it through them :-)

Hunt the best you can and if there's a doubt, even if you pull off the shot, 25 years later you still might wake up in the middle of the night wondering "maybe I shouldn't have risked that!". It's all part of hunting.

Hope this makes sense to y'all like it does to me.

It's okay with me, too!

Rich

quote:

This post brought to you by actually re-reading the .223 threads and it took 2 glasses of bushmills with a splash of water to make it through them :-)

Only 2 glasses? You are a strong man PM.

The bickering about the suitability of the .223 for deer hunting will most likely go on forever.
I've seen a lot of deer fall to the .223, but there are so many who doubt the effectiveness of it and that's what keeps the bickering going each fall!

I don't think this issue/question will ever be settled. I have my opinion (but I'm not going to state it) others will have theirs, but few will be changed by any amount of argument for or against.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Why worry about it? If the 223 works for you and it’s legal and you feel comfortable with your choice of hunting rounds, fine. Why would any of this back biting, name calling, and anger bother you? No one is forced to read the thread.

Some people have their opinions on what is adequate or proper and no amount of arguing is going to change their minds one way or the other. If people want to argue about it, let them argue. After some of the fights I’ve seen, these guys are never going to be friends anyway.

One of my best hunting buddies was given an AR in 223 by his son. The darn thing is very accurate, so he takes it deer and hog hunting. The friendship is far more important to me than what rifle he hunts with.

The last day of the season, last year, my buddy shot a big doe in the neck at about 200 yds with a 223 varmint bullet. The deer went down instantly, but flopped around for more than 15 minutes. I suggested at least twice that he better shoot her again, but his belief in the rifle and cartridge prevented him from recognizing the potential for the deer to get up and run off.

When we left the stand the doe was still there on the ground, but when we went to pick her up in one of those electric four-wheeler thingies, she had dissappeared.

The way I figure it is that if a guy can't learn from that experience of using a varmint rifle for deer, then there is little chance he will listen to anything I have to say about it, so there was no discussion about his lost deer.

I suppose that sorry excuse for a hunter who wounded that really nice buck with a 22 hornet near the farm in Georgia is still hunting deer with that rifle too.

Although it's disgusting, there is little that can be done about it as long as it is allowed by law. So, there are lots of things that are more important to worry about. It is what it is.

I bought my tickets to Texas yesterday, so I plan on being there again on the last weekend of the deer season, and hunt hogs too the next week. My buddy will probably be using his AR 223 with varmint bullets again and I'll be using a 308 Sako his neighbor is putting together for me. I may razz him a little about his pea shooter, and he will find something to razz me about, nothing serious. If it goes like the last two years, we will have a very good time, and drink lots of beer, eat lots of bar-b-q, shoot several deer and several more hogs, and the 10 days will go by way too fast, and there will be little discussion about our caliber of choice, except maybe with his gunsmith neighbor.

I would actually be pleased if every deer and hog he shot with that thing was a one-shot DRT. According to some on this forum, that's their experience with the 223. Since I consider my hunting buddy a better shot, and he gets to go hunting more that I do - he's retired, it will be interesting to witness or hear about his acual experiences with that 223. To me that will be a good representative test of what to expect by using a 223.

I'm sure this subject will never be settled, and won't go away, so I may have more to report later based on actual field tests conducted by my hunting buddy. At least it's something else interesting to do, and I'm not going to stoop so low as to drag out a varmint rifle to hunt deer just because I can, and to prove a point that I already know exists.

KB

As I stated in a previous post, I have killed 2 deer with a 223. Both were bang flops.

I view using the 223 for deer in the same manner I do when I use a handgun or a bow...

Not only can you not take just any shot, you must wait until the shot is "RIGHT".

Now some one might say that you should wait, and not take ANY shot until it is right, and that is correct, it is just when using a bigger gun more shots are "right".

I would not use a 223 when stalking where I might jump up a big buck.

I know what you mean about the right shot, N E 450. For me, evaluating the situation for the right shot is a constant, something I do every time, so in a basic way I take it for granted to pass on a shot that doesn't seem right.

The "right" shot is to me it is generally easier to described by stating what isn't the "right" shot. Either way, there are too many variables to try to describe the "right" shot here. Since I evaluate every shot as right or not before taking it, I actually give it little thought. It's more instinctive that an actual thought process in the field. No shot is without potential for mistake.

Now that you have me thinking about it, I think that most of the shots I'm willing to take could probably be made by someone skillful with a 223. The main reasons I shun the 223 is because I have practically no confidence in it, and no direct experience with it, and have no plans to own one. Also it has left a bad impression on me from some observations and from some of the advocacy that I consider zealotry or close to cult like following.

To me it's a varmint cartridge, at best, and always will be, and it's not even the best varmint cartridge. So, for me it is a cartridge that has little use in the hunting sport. There are plenty of better varmint cartridges, and practically anything bigger than .223 is a much better deer cartridge. It's too big and fast and explosive for small game, and too little and explosive for bigger game. Its best use is for defense and military, and some would say it's not the best for that either. If the 223 didn't exist, I certainly wouldn't miss it. It's a special purpose cartridge that should have never broke out into the sporting world, IMO.

Also, I get to hunt far less than I would like to, so I want to make the most of my opportunities. I have a large selection of deer rifles to choose from which are all perfectly suited to cleanly kill deer or hogs on any "right" shot I'm willing to take, even with a degree of mistake factored in. I simply see no need to own a 223. To me it would be a waste of time to take one hunting for deer. If I owned a 223, I'm sure it would have little use.

KB

Kabluewy

I feel the same way you do.

I would rather hunt deer, and especially pigs, with my 450 No2 Elephant Gun, than my 223 Varmint Gun.

For a "deer rifle" why not just get a 243, 260, 7mm08, or a 308, and be "done with it"???

Even a .243 is marginal. 6.5x55 is my go to. .223 is a vermin round!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
The main reasons I shun the 223 is because I have practically no confidence in it, and no direct experience with it, and have no plans to own one.

KB

Kaboom (aka The Flock Shooter)

This is probably the smartest thing you have ever said on this board.

I couldn't agree with you more on what you said above. You have no experience with it and in your hands it would be a disaster as you can't shoot for sh$t. Anything beyond 125 yards as you have mentioned, is pretty safe from you.

Please stay away from this cartridge and have a great trip !!

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
The main reasons I shun the 223 is because I have practically no confidence in it, and no direct experience with it, and have no plans to own one.

KB

Kaboom (aka The Flock Shooter)

This is probably the smartest thing you have ever said on this board.

I couldn't agree with you more on what you said above. You have no experience with it and in your hands it would be a disaster as you can't shoot for sh$t. Anything beyond 125 yards as you have mentioned, is pretty safe from you.

Please stay away from this cartridge and have a great trip !!

Teancum, (aka Fawn Sniper)
You are a strange man. Why do you have to make it personal and pick a fight? Don't you get it that guys like you are not successful promotors of the cartridge, or the sport of hunting in general? In the states where the 223 is illegal for deer, you are the kind of guy that such laws are aimed, and why they get passed. In other words, you are a good representative of the kind of guy who has to be told by law and society what ethical behavior is, because otherwise you don't know, or don't care.

I'm beginning to suspect that you are lurking from one of the anti-hunter groups just to create controversy and get info to support their cause.

KB

If people want to use a 223, let them, if it is legal. When using a 223, using the right bullet and having the right shot tend to be more important than with a 270. Its a matter of putting the bullet where it needs to go.


Here is a post from a different thread. Phil probably know more on the subject than any of us so I will end with this.

I have been designing, building and using THE "perfect all around Alaskan rifle" now for over thirty years and have an entire rack full of them ranging from 30-06, to 338 Win, 35 Whelen, 9.3x62, 9.5x62 (aka 375 Scovill), 375 H&H, 375 Ruger, 416 Rem.,416 Rigby and my 458.
What I have learned is that it's still hard to beat the 30-06 for "all around" use.
There are no bad ones though. It's up to the shooter to make them work. Even the .223 works for a lot of folks.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubt" Bertrand Russell

Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com


ddj

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

For a "deer rifle" why not just get a 243, 260, 7mm08, or a 308, and be "done with it"???

Because a .223 works just fine.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by trouthunterdj:
If people want to use a 223, let them, if it is legal. When using a 223, using the right bullet and having the right shot tend to be more important than with a 270. Its a matter of putting the bullet where it needs to go.

Here is a post from a different thread.

I have been designing, building and using THE "perfect all around Alaskan rifle" now for over thirty years and
What I have learned is that it's still hard to beat the 30-06 for "all around" use.
It's up to the shooter to make them work. Even the .223 works for a lot of folks.

Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

ddj

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

For a "deer rifle" why not just get a 243, 260, 7mm08, or a 308, and be "done with it"???

Because a .223 works just fine.

Terry

Some can obviously make the 223 work. No problem. It's just not my choice of hunting tool.

On the subject of perfect all-around deer cartridge - as a catagory - I doubt that the 223 would make the list. Certainly the list would start with the 243 barely making it, and include the 257R, 25-06, 260, 270, 7mm/08, 7x57, 308, 30-06, 8x57, 9.3x57 and 450 No 2 for examples. I would rather spend my time hunting deer with a rifle cartridge generally accepted as perfect for deer, instead of making something work that isn't designed for such use.

KB

The interesting thing with Phil Shoemakers post is he wasn't even talking about deer rifles. He was talking about an all-around Alaskan Rifle. I know that is a stretch but with Phil being a guide and writer from Alaska, I thought the comment intersting to say the least.

ddj

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by trouthunterdj:
If people want to use a 223, let them, if it is legal. When using a 223, using the right bullet and having the right shot tend to be more important than with a 270. Its a matter of putting the bullet where it needs to go.

Here is a post from a different thread.

I have been designing, building and using THE "perfect all around Alaskan rifle" now for over thirty years and
What I have learned is that it's still hard to beat the 30-06 for "all around" use.
It's up to the shooter to make them work. Even the .223 works for a lot of folks.

Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

ddj

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

For a "deer rifle" why not just get a 243, 260, 7mm08, or a 308, and be "done with it"???

Because a .223 works just fine.

Terry

Some can obviously make the 223 work. No problem. It's just not my choice of hunting tool.

On the subject of perfect all-around deer cartridge - as a catagory - I doubt that the 223 would make the list. Certainly the list would start with the 243 barely making it, and include the 257R, 25-06, 260, 270, 7mm/08, 7x57, 308, 30-06, 8x57, 9.3x57 and 450 No 2 for examples. I would rather spend my time hunting deer with a rifle cartridge generally accepted as perfect for deer, instead of making something work that isn't designed for such use.

KB

It won't be the only caliber I use this year. Just one of many. I've got a 7X57 custom Mauser that needs a little blood on it too.

Just a correction though, they make .224 bullets that are designed for deer hunting. As much as you dislike that fact it's true


Terry