I neck sized w/ns die about 1/2 the neck, loaded up a 1/2" load (new brass) and came home from the range with a "shotgun" eight inch "pattern" for my efforts. Do ya'll neck size and do all the neck or just a partial?

I am assuming my problem is with weak neck tension on these rounds.

Appreciate all comments.

Did the base of the bullet go below the sized part?
Butch

i assume your half load means you loaded about half of the powder, if so poor group would be expected. because the velocity would probably not be high enough to stabilize the bullet

Butchloc,
I read it to be his 1/2" moa load otherwise.
Butch

Yes a little confusing. I meant 1/2 MOA and yes the base of the bullet goes past the sized part by about .08 or so as the sized portion is just less than .224 w/neck about .30. Thanks for the help.FYI, the bullet is the 53 gr TSX and load is 20.3 gr IMR 4198.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Butchloc,
I read it to be his 1/2" moa load otherwise.
Butch

You need to jump the TSX bullets and you need to size the necks below the heel of the bullet.
Butch

Is "size the necks below the heel" true across the board at least as a generality on all calibers/bullets?

In my estimation it is important. I'll guarantee you won't find a BR rifle that is not sized below the hel.
Butch

Fifteen shots went into a area roughly 5"wide and 3" high where I had 1/4" for four shots before neck sizing.

to follow along, why are you neck sizing only half of the neck?? usually when folks talk about partial neck sizing what they really mean is the die doesn't set the shoulders back nor reduce the body. Set your die so it sizes almost all of the neck and see what happens.

I was following the rule "should not size less than 3/4 bullet diameter". First time I ran into this detail about "below the heel". Back to the saying "when ya quit learnin' may as well go to reloading in heaven. Well I have only forty of these left so the granddaughters will have a lot of "trash" to heat up the barrels. Thanks for sharing the experience.

Well I have no idea what is going on here. Perhaps someone can explain. I have an RCBS neck sizing die for my Rem 788 in 222 Rem. It does NOT resize the whole neck just part of it. Additionally, my Wilson neck die that I use in my arbor press for my 6mm BR BR rifle does NOT resize the whole neck just the top 2/10 of an inch or so. My Wilson neck die for my 222Rem BR rifle also does not resize the whole neck. Both the Wilson dies are custom neck dies based on the diameter of the chamber neck given to me by the barrel maker. What gives? The only potential problem I see is the "dreaded doughnut".
As to the OP's problem. Did you full length size the new brass? Is it possible that the neck die is not concentric? Did you try the roll test on the loaded ammo to check for runout?
Peter.

Gettin interesting now. Peter, am using Redding NS die. I did not FL or otherwise size the new Remington brass. Did the usual size check, chamfered and deburred necks, primed and loaded the new brass. Did not do the roll test, explain please. I still have forty of these little retards so I can test for quite some time!

These little cases just are not very forgiving it seems. Thanks for all the help.

Well I always FL resize new brass to eliminate dents etc. plus try to ensure "squareness" (assuming that the FL die is good, they generally are). The roll test is just load up a round and roll it with your fingertips on a flat surface eg. a sheet of glass and look carefully at the bullet tip. If the loaded round is "out of round" then you will see the bullet tip move in a circle. This is a quick version of a more complicated device that tests loaded rounds for concentricity. I have one but do not use it as much now as when I was more "anal" about such things!
The 222Rem is a very forgiving round so I cannot explain your large groups with a know load unless the new brass has a problem. I am not convinced that neck sizing only gave me statistically better results than FL sizing in my Rem 788 rifle, but I have not shot it in a while. It is however a 1/2" rifle at 100 yards!
Peter.
PS. There may be a significant difference in brass however. Lapua or one of the other good makes may be better ie. more consistent.

I tried the rolling and see some sign of a circle pattern but it does not seem to be of any size and must look closely to see it at all. Perhaps had I run the NS die on the new brass I would have never known I had a die problem?? Would have never gotten a good group either I suppose. However, I have another load with 40 gr Nosler BT and do NOT have this problem. I am however using all new brass with that bullet so perhaps my next call is to redding. This same custom die set had to have the seater die replaced as it would not seat any lower than 2.14 without crimping. They replaced it. Guess they have a problem with the sizing die as well. Sound reasonable?

Honestly don't know. Have you been using the same dies all along? Any old brass still around? Have you checked the scope mounts and rings?
Peter.

These are new die and first use of the sizing die and as noted above had to replace the original seater die in this set. I call redding first thing in the AM and will advise outcome.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Honestly don't know. Have you been using the same dies all along? Any old brass still around? Have you checked the scope mounts and rings?
Peter.

A die that only resizes 2/10ths of an inch of the neck?? You are kidding right? Tell me what supposed advantage would that give your??

Heading back to the range with new attempt. It is worth noting that on the redding NS die instructions it gives specific information on how adjust their die to only size a portion of the neck so it must happen a lot. In this case .2 of the .3 neck is rougly 67% of the entire neck area. Thanks for all the insights.

I take it that this die is a "conventional" neck sizing die? That is, it is just a cylindrical hole in the steel die body that terminates in a tapered cone leading into a smaller cylinder just smaller than the desired outside neck diameter.

If this is the case, then such a die is subject, particularly with new, unfired brass, to cocking the neck at an angle to the axis of the brass. This can result in the lack of accuracy you are experiencing.

I most typically neck size-only when loading for bolt action rifles, but I use a FL die backed off a fraction from the shoulder (which some call partial full length sizing), or use a Lee Collet die which usually leaves the neck well-aligned with the axis of the case, and therefore, with the axis of the chamber and bore.

I doubt your lack of accuracy has anything to do with neck tension. Variable neck tension can cause problems, but so long as the neck tension is reasonably consistent (whether zero as some bench shooters prefer or crimped like hell as some hunters prefer), it should not make such a profound difference in accuracy.

Have you condsidered any other issues to be the cause of the bad groups?
I've had major accuracy problems with the TSX in my .308 when the barrel wasn't squeakingly clean.
When did you last remove the copper from your barrel?

Yes, it is the die you describe. The brass in question was once fired in the rifle prior to being neck sized for the first time.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
I take it that this die is a "conventional" neck sizing die? That is, it is just a cylindrical hole in the steel die body that terminates in a tapered cone leading into a smaller cylinder just smaller than the desired outside neck diameter.

If this is the case, then such a die is subject, particularly with new, unfired brass, to cocking the neck at an angle to the axis of the brass. This can result in the lack of accuracy you are experiencing.

I most typically neck size-only when loading for bolt action rifles, but I use a FL die backed off a fraction from the shoulder (which some call partial full length sizing), or use a Lee Collet die which usually leaves the neck well-aligned with the axis of the case, and therefore, with the axis of the chamber and bore.

I doubt your lack of accuracy has anything to do with neck tension. Variable neck tension can cause problems, but so long as the neck tension is reasonably consistent (whether zero as some bench shooters prefer or crimped like hell as some hunters prefer), it should not make such a profound difference in accuracy.

copper removed less than ten or so shots from the problem arising. Cleaned pretty good with the foaming bore cleaner. Had to cancel my morning range session when the se wind almost knocked the F150 sideways. Felt the little .224 would not give me anything other than more frustration. Have checked all the screws on rifle/scope and this barrel is free floated and is on a sako vixen w/hvy factory barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by McFox:
Have you condsidered any other issues to be the cause of the bad groups?
I've had major accuracy problems with the TSX in my .308 when the barrel wasn't squeakingly clean.
When did you last remove the copper from your barrel?

quote:

Originally posted by muygrande:
Yes, it is the die you describe. The brass in question was once fired in the rifle prior to being neck sized for the first time

If you have a FL die, try using it adjusted so that it just misses engaging the shoulders.

I often just size the upper half or so of the necks certain cases, but I use the Lee Collet die to do so by placing a washer of the desired thickness over the case on top of the shell holder. I find no degradation in accuracy with only the forward .15" or so of the case neck engaging the bullet, in fact, it is usually more accurate that way becasuse the unsized case neck supports the case concentrically in the chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by muygrande:
Heading back to the range with new attempt. It is worth noting that on the redding NS die instructions it gives specific information on how adjust their die to only size a portion of the neck so it must happen a lot. In this case .2 of the .3 neck is rougly 67% of the entire neck area. Thanks for all the insights.

I got out my cartridge drawings and you are right but I still don't agree that you shouldn't use as much of the neck as possible.

Yes, I have the FL die that came with the three die set and will give it a go when I get the 22-250 off the Dillon 550b. I read a lot about the washer method but question as to whether that method can be used on the dillon progressives?

Certainly appreciate everyone's input as it is a good learning experience for me that will hopefully bear fruit if this Texas SE 25-40 MPH will just break for a day or two. Doggondest weather I recall in my 66 years.

Hey MuyGrande, How close to "Weighing the same" are the old Cases in comparison to the new ones?

I often use my FL sizing dies to size just the neck of the case, but when I adjust it, I set it to the point just before the shoulder is affected. When I do this, almost all the neck is sized. I don't have any accuracy problems sizing this way.

No clue on weight of the cases. As a hunter and a plinker do I really need to know this? I do know that the same batch of cases that shot less than 1/2 MOA when new shot an 8"X3" pattern after neck sizing.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey MuyGrande, How close to "Weighing the same" are the old Cases in comparison to the new ones?

quote:

Originally posted by muygrande:
No clue on weight of the cases. As a hunter and a plinker do I really need to know this? I do know that the same batch of cases that shot less than 1/2 MOA when new shot an 8"X3" pattern after neck sizing

Oh, I thought you were using different "Lots" of Cases, I must have misread(or forgot ) that. And "No", I doubt you really need to know the Case weight.

I re-re-re-re-re-run a P-FLR vs. NS Blind comparison Test every 4-5yrs. P-FLR has always edged out the NS cases every time for me.

When you think about P-FLRing a Case, the Case Head and Case Shoulder are held in Compression between the Bolt Face and Chamber Shoulder. That "Forces" the CenterLine of the Case to be as close to the CenterLine of the Chamber as is possible. That will start the Bullet as straight as possible into the Barrel.

On a NSed Case, the Case will lay on the bottom of the Chamber in CRF Actions and be held skewed by the Ejector Spring in Push Feed Rifles, not much, but a bit. And that has the potential to start the Bullet a bit crooked into the Barrel.

Only good thing I see about NSing a Case is you generally do not need to Lube the Case for Sizing. But, I don't mind Lubing the Case and tossing it in the Tumbler for awhile after Resizing.

It should be easy enough for you to go back and see if they way you did them before NSing will restore your former Accuracy.

Best of luck to you.

Thanks HC. Yes, I will go back to the original new case loads once I follow up on NS info given above as I will be wanting to use these cases several times as this rifle will be used for bringing in 10-14 year olds into our great sport.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by muygrande:
No clue on weight of the cases. As a hunter and a plinker do I really need to know this? I do know that the same batch of cases that shot less than 1/2 MOA when new shot an 8"X3" pattern after neck sizing

Oh, I thought you were using different "Lots" of Cases, I must have misread(or forgot ) that. And "No", I doubt you really need to know the Case weight.

I re-re-re-re-re-run a P-FLR vs. NS Blind comparison Test every 4-5yrs. P-FLR has always edged out the NS cases every time for me.

When you think about P-FLRing a Case, the Case Head and Case Shoulder are held in Compression between the Bolt Face and Chamber Shoulder. That "Forces" the CenterLine of the Case to be as close to the CenterLine of the Chamber as is possible. That will start the Bullet as straight as possible into the Barrel.

On a NSed Case, the Case will lay on the bottom of the Chamber in CRF Actions and be held skewed by the Ejector Spring in Push Feed Rifles, not much, but a bit. And that has the potential to start the Bullet a bit crooked into the Barrel.

Only good thing I see about NSing a Case is you generally do not need to Lube the Case for Sizing. But, I don't mind Lubing the Case and tossing it in the Tumbler for awhile after Resizing.

It should be easy enough for you to go back and see if they way you did them before NSing will restore your former Accuracy.

Best of luck to you.

I don't want to get into a long explanation of why it is so, nor will I engage in an argument with HC since he has long since proven that to be an unproductive use of time, however, I just can't let his baseless assertion regarding the way the brass fits in the chamber pass uncontested.

If a fired case is place back in the same chamber, then its relation to that chamber is the same so long as no resizing takes place on the case body. HC suggests that the case on which there has been some resizing of the body will fit the chamber perfectly, while the case on which there has been no resizing of the body will not. Hogwash.

The difference between PFLS cases and neck-sized cases is that the PFLS method tends to make the neck axis concentric with the body axis, whereas neck-sizing only with a conventional neck die CAN result in a neck which has its axis cocked in relation to the case body. But this has nothing to do with the relationship of the axis of the case to the axis of the chamber/bore. That is determined by the case-to-chamber fit, and case fit is, by definition, exact in a neck-sized-only case.

And if one case "lays on the the bottom of the chamber", it will be the one which has been partially resized and is therefore smaller in diameter than the chamber, not the one which has not had its body resized, partially or otherwise.

There. I've countered the flagrant misinformation from HC. I leave it to others to carry on the inevitable, irrational argument with him and the "several thousand" deer he has killed.

Finally light winds in the AM. Confirmed but one thing, another ten of the problem children continue to exhibit the "pattern". Did take other ammo loaded with new brass but with 40 gr Nos BT's. They continue to shoot as before into rougly a 1/2"MOA. So, I do not have a rifle/scope problem. Has to be in my reloading/sizing of these cases. It will be several days before I get the press back into 222 Rem configuration so I will advise in a week or so what I have found with ya'll's help, thanks again.

"Berry interestink!"

I have to agree with Stonecreek. HC is totally wrong with his description of how the different method of sized cases fit the chamber. The NS only fit better then any partial full length resizing or full length resizing.

Another thing that can center the bullet more is find thicker brass at the necks and neck turning them to give you the minimum neck expansion clearance. This really is only beneficial to serious target rifles and just a waste of time for off the shelve hunting rifles.

Another trick to center the bullet is one I was told by a Marine target shooter and that is to flare the mouth of the case just slightly larger then the neck diameter of the chamber so when chambering the round the mouth fits snug and centers in the neck chamber. I will tell you it's hard to load ammo like that become standard bullet seaters will size that flare down some.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
... I just can't let his baseless assertion regarding the way the brass fits in the chamber pass uncontested.

If a fired case is place back in the same chamber, then its relation to that chamber is the same so long as no resizing takes place on the case body. HC suggests that the case on which there has been some resizing of the body will fit the chamber perfectly, while the case on which there has been no resizing of the body will not. Hogwash.

The difference between PFLS cases and neck-sized cases is that the PFLS method tends to make the neck axis concentric with the body axis, whereas neck-sizing only with a conventional neck die CAN result in a neck which has its axis cocked in relation to the case body. But this has nothing to do with the relationship of the axis of the case to the axis of the chamber/bore. That is determined by the case-to-chamber fit, and case fit is, by definition, exact in a neck-sized-only case.

And if one case "lays on the the bottom of the chamber", it will be the one which has been partially resized and is therefore smaller in diameter than the chamber, not the one which has not had its body resized, partially or otherwise.

There. I've countered the flagrant misinformation from HC. I leave it to others to carry on the inevitable, irrational argument with him and the "several thousand" deer he has killed.

very
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Hey MuyGrande, I was thinking about your problem last night and I doubt it has anything to do with the NSing. Even though NSing is less accurate than P-FLRing(which is easy enough for everyone to prove for themselves), that should not be enough to go from 1/2MOA to an 8" Pattern.

And since you can go back to the 1/2MOA groups by returning to the previous Load, that eliminates a rifle problem.

Soooooo, something else has changed "within" the Load. One of the Components has changed, either the Cases, Primers, Powder or Bullets. And since they are the same Cases, with only 1-additional shot through them, I do not believe they are the problem.

Here is the Load you posted, "the bullet is the 53 gr TSX and load is 20.3 gr IMR 4198." I doubt anything changed with the IMR-4198, unless you had a severe Temperature fluctuation for a long period of time. Or if you opened a new Jug of Powder. But, IMR-4198 has always been one of the most consistent Lot-to-Lot Powders I've ever used, so I'd rule it out.

Primers can have that much effect on groups if you had to open a new Brick. If you did, it can be that simple.

But, what I'd suspect most of all is the 53 gr TSX. It could be the Weight is different, but I'll guess the Ogive is different. If you just went to Seating Bullets after opening a new box without first verifying the distance Off-the-Lands with a Bullet from that new box, it can easily cause a shift from 1/2MOA to 8" Patterns. And TSX Bullets are noted for inconsistency from Lot-to-Lot.

Id recommend you use the Methods listed here and convert OCL to ODL.
-----

One thing nice about all this is you can try what people have suggested and see what works for you the best. If you find NSing works well for you, that is what you should use. But, I'd bet it isn't quite as accurate as good old, never fail, always reliable, P-FLRing.

Best of luck to you.

HC, yes brand new box of bullets. So damn happy with the group I had shot that I just went to loading. Yeppers loaded the entire 50, I did. Thanks for the key to the thread provided. I do use the stoney point tool and have the hexagon gadgets I think made my Sinclair to check as well. Unfortunately do not have any of the original bullets from the good group left to compare. Additionally same primers rem 7 1/2 and same jug of IMR.

Hey MuyGrande, That "new box" of TSX Bullets does sound suspicious. The Throat on a 222Rem tends to last a very long time, and since the other Loads still shot well, that confirmed it hadn't moved much.

You might try doing a "Find" on the Reloading Board concerning TSX Bullets and see what other folks experienced with all kinds of TSX Bullets.

I believe most of them have switched to the newest Triple Shock, but that could be Full-of-Beans.

Lots of excellent Bullets available(most with some Lead in them ), don't let them get you frustrated.

Best of luck to you.

Actually I am switching most of my calibers over to the tipped bullet and notice a new one for the 224 is due out this year but no one is S. Texas that I know has them yet? Hopefully they will be short enough to stabilize in the common 1:14 twist barrels.

Thanks for the insights.