Well, yet another successful (I think!) day out gun shopping. I was out with the intent to purchase a small bore for deer this fall. I was considering mainly .25-06, .260, .257 roberts, and 6.5x55 swede.

After a rather fruitless trip to cabela's (save for some ammo), I stopped at a local range with a small gun shop to see what they had in stock. This particular place typically has some pretty decent used rifles and certainly it's fair share of less than typical calibers. Today they had two particular rifles that caught my eye.

First was a "custom" mauser 96 in 6.5x55 swede. It was bedded in a Bell and Carlson stock and sported a Bushnell 3-9x40 scope. The stock fitting looked a bit rough and the $895 price tag made me a bit shy. Didn't quite like the feel of a cock on close bolt, either.

As I put that down, I happened to see a JP Sauer and Sohn Gew 98, sporterized, in .257 Roberts with a cheap-o BSA 3-9x40 scope for $375. Bore looked bright on the 22" barrel. Action pretty smooth. Stock well fitted. My only downfall to it was quite a bit of take up on the trigger. Not sure if this is inherent to all 98 triggers? Also, the safety is unable to be engaged due to the scope. But the gun just shouldered nicely and felt good in my hands, so it's sitting on my work bench awaiting a good cleaning tonight when I wake up. The scope will hopefully soon be replaced with a vintage Leupold (any suggestions on models?).

Now the big question: the barrel is stamped "257R" and I'm assuming it is not safe to shoot +P Roberts ammo through this rifle. Would that be a correct assumption? Ordering up some standard pressure ammo tonight online and hopefully getting her out on the range next week to see how she shoots. I'll try to get some pictures up tonight after I clean her.

+ P ammo would probably be OK. But, there's no real need for it in your rifle unless you want your bullets to go a bit faster. Looking forward to your pics.

That rifle sounds like a great find to me; hard to beat the quality of a Gew 98 action.

Regarding the trigger, if it has the Mauser two-stage trigger then yes it will seem as though there is a ton of take-up. But that's the way the two-stage trigger works.

You can get another safety lever that will work with a scope, and even get a Winchester type three position safety for Mausers.

I think you did well on that purchase.

Not only is +P ammo OK for your gun a careful handloaded round a few grains over that will be fine too....I say this not knowing the condition and quality of smithing done to your rifle and assuming it's well put together!

Yes it will handle the +P loads just fine. I to would like to see pictures of the rifle. The price does sound like a good deal. You can get a low scope safety for around 20.00 and up and after market adjustable triggers are reasonable as well. enjoy the 1/4 bore and let us know how it shoots.

Thank you all for the responses thus far. I just ordered up a few more boxes in +P fit to see what she likes to shoot best. This is my first experience with a two stage trigger, so that does explain it all!

Without further ado, pictures!

Nothing wrong with this rifle.

You might find that scope is actually okay for the rifle due to low recoil.

If it aint broke dont fix it


Cal30

I'm quite confident the scope will stand up to the round and probably work quite well. It will eventually get swapped for a Leupold of one variety or another simply to satiate my quirk for having all of my glass matching on all of my rifles. Every scope I own (with the exception of this one!) is a Leupold. I just love their glass for some reason.

Really excited to get her out the range. Planning to do so early next week before I head back to work for a 7 day stretch. Hoping this snow they're predicting for tomorrow melts by then. With the wacky weather we've been having hear lately (snow one day, 50-60*F the next), that might be entirely possible!

Scope looks like an old Tasco World Class, 3 x 9...

if it is marked BSA, then it is being made in the same factory as Tasco, but just now has the BSA name plate on it..

I have a batch of the Tasco World Class and they are actually tough scopes with some pretty decent glass on them...

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Scope looks like an old Tasco World Class, 3 x 9...

if it is marked BSA, then it is being made in the same factory as Tasco, but just now has the BSA name plate on it..

I have a batch of the Tasco World Class and they are actually tough scopes with some pretty decent glass on them...

Thanks, seafire. I actually did not know that. One of those things I really love about this place, always something to learn here!

I have a fine JP Sauer and Sohn Gew 98 .243 that now has a Bold trigger on it. Mauser triggers are easy to find replacements for. That 96 mauser you passed on did not sound like a good deal, but the .257r sounds ok.
My .257r is on a VZ24 98 mauser much like the Gew 98. I put a 3x9 Nikon Prostaff on it so far so good. Any JP Sauer not bubbized is good in my book.

I second the earlier opinion that +P is not needed. I handload my Mauser .257 Roberts to the original 2900 fps with 100 gr. Nosler BT or NP, and it does everything I need out to 300 yd.

Clarence

quote:

Originally posted by ClaMar:
I second the earlier opinion that +P is not needed. I handload my Mauser .257 Roberts to the original 2900 fps with 100 gr. Nosler BT or NP, and it does everything I need out to 300 yd.

Clarence

Given that the +P loads are still well within the 98 design limits, there is no reason not to use them. +P pressures are still less than those generated by the .30-06 which is probably the most commonly encountered "custom" chambering found in 98's. Those +P pressures are much less than other common 98 chamberings like the .270, .308, .25-06, and 6mm Rem.

Pretty rifle!

Nice find!

Thanks, guys! Ammo shipped today and the "snow storm" ended up being a wash. Early next week should be primo shooting weather!

Nice find on that 257.
You'll like a 257 roberts they are a joy to shoot and a great killer on game, I love mine.

Nice find on the rifle.....own a couple of 257R built on Mauser actions and a Ruger Hawkeye. You should find the 257R to be a fairly flat shooting rifle with low recoil....joy to shoot.

So I finally got out to the range today. Sunny, slightly windy (~15-20mph gusts from time to time), 45* or so. Cleaned the barrel last night and hit the 100yd range.

Brought 4 different factory loads with me. HSM 115gr Berger VDL HPBT, Federal Vital Shok 120gr +P Nosler Partition, Hornady Custom 117gr +P Interlock BTSP, and Hornady Superformance 117gr +P SST.

I shot slow 5 shot groups of each load from a bench with a sandbag positioned pretty much right under the chamber. Rate of fire was 1 shot per minute for a string of five with about 5 minutes to cool between strings to walk down the 100yds and check my groups out.

The results were slightly befuddling. The Federal 120gr Partitions were the only round I could get to group. Now I fully understand I'm much less accurate than any rifle I own. I'm usually happy with 5 shots within a 3-4" circle at 100yds. I understand my limitations and hunt within them and consider this accuracy more than adequate for hunting. The Partitions grouped about 4", centered just left of the POA for 10 shots (two 5 shot groups as outlined above). They were the third ammo I shot, so it wasn't a clean/dirty barrel issue.

The Hornady Interlocks gave me about 6" group for 4 shots with a 5th flier about 6" above that group. I'm sure the flier was operator error.

The Hornady Superformance was ALL OVER THE PLACE. About a 12" spread total for the five shots.

The HSM group was even worse. I have three shots within 6" of each other, and the other two nowhere to be found on the poster board I attached the four targets to.

I find it tough to believe I could attribute all of the variation to myself. One type of ammo grouped well while the other three wouldn't. Is it possible that the rifle just doesn't like the lighter ammo? I know we're only talking 3-5gr. I don't know the twist rate on the barrel and I'm kind of in the dark as to how to determine that.

Any thoughts on this one, guys?

Were the bullet holes in the target perfectly round? If they are it is not a twist issue. Use a tight patch on a jag, push into the barrel 1/2 to 3/4 of the way, put a piece of tape around the rod next to your bore guide and squeeze the extra together at the 12:00 position. Pull the rod backwards until the tape revolves back to 12:00. Measure the distance from the tape back to the bore guide, this will approximate the twist. Because the partion grouped the "best" and the higher the BC of the boat tail bullets were worse, the first thing I would do is touch up the crown. Then I would try a different scope, then I would take a look at the bedding. I like to do one thing at a time and then test, that way I learn something in the process. I am pretty sure if we just did a complete accurizing the rifle would shoot much better, but I like to see what makes the biggest difference.

A quick and easy way tyo make a single stage trigger from the military two stage that may help with your shooting is to lift the trigger past the first stage. I did this tempory try-out just on 30 years ago and it has performed without adjustment for thousands of shots on two different rifles. Always meant to replace the devcon steel with a piece of brass or a screw through the base but this has worked so well that never seen the need. Not pretty but it works well. Make sure there is suficient engagement that a butt slap (bump the butt on the groung with the trigger set) or a vigorous bolt closing will not release the sear. Just file a bit on the devcon pad till a safe and repeatable trigger is obtained.
Then cut a 1/4 turn from the return spring at a time and a nice 3 lb will result. This particular trigger I have altered also by cutting the fingerpiece off paralell to the main arm and welded another fingerpiece behind it to shift the trigger to the rear of the trigger guard for an improved feel and look.

First off I would replace that scope.
More times than I can count a cheap scope has caused me to have fits.
Put a known accurate shooting scope on it and re shoot it. I would do nothing to the rifle until you do this.

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions so far.

My first suspect was the scope. However, the Partitions groups were numbers 3 and 5 of the five 5 shot groups. I'd think it coincidental that the scope would cooperate for those two strings and be out of adjustment for the other three groups. It is, however, slated for replacement as money allows, anyway.

I also am giving strong thought to replacing the two stage trigger as it is just very unnatural feeling to me. Maybe a crisp single stage will make some difference for me.

I will have to address the crown issue with my gunsmith. I'm assuming this is not something I want to undertake myself (or even have the means to do so)? Also, the bullet holes were all perfectly round on target, I did not appreciate any keyholes even on reexamining the targets a few minutes ago. As soon as I get a little more motivated I'll drag my camera in from my truck and post up a picture of the targets if that'll help anyone help me.

I would do two things first. Number one is remove the scope and rings and be sure the bases are really tight. They look like they don't fit perfectly in the pictures, especially the front one. Torque them down good and tight then re-install the scope and be sure the rear lateral adjustment screws on the base are tight.

Second, try a lighter bullet. All four you tried to date are the heaviest available. The performance you have seen with the VLD's is a classic example of an understabilized bullet. You can check twist and look at bullet holes, but the proof is to pop some 87 grain varmint bullets down the tube. From the look of the rifle, it was likely built in a period when a lot of 257's were built as varmint rifles, and I have seen more than one with a slow twist barrel.

You might also try the tests at 25 yards. The groups should be tighter, but a lot of people are more comfortable there when shooting a light sporter and can see the target better. Just remember that the results should be 1/4 as much. If 4" groups are your standard at 100, look for 1" groups at 25.

I'm with the others who recommended you try some lighter bullets. I think the 100 gr. bullets are well-suited to the .257 Roberts. I have read about some 10 twist barrels not handling the heavier bullets very accurately.

I'm also curious about your sandbag placement. I've always found it is much more stable to get the front bag out under the forearm. Your rifle may moving around more because you have the two bags so close to each other. It's possible that a part of your problem is related to that.

Are you a handloader? I don't think you have very many choices with 100 gr. factory ammo, so that may be a necessity if you want the rifle to shoot well.

One more thing to check-you may have a longer throat. Your factory ammo is designed to fit a short action magazine (~2 7/8"). Many custom .257s are throated for 3" or slightly longer ammo. Sometimes that extra jump to the rifling works fine, but sometimes it doesn't. Hornady (formerly Stony Point) makes a tool to help you measure cartridge OAL to touch the lands, but you could also do it by seating a bullet very long, testing it in the action to see if it would close on the dummy round, and then shortening it slightly and re-trying until the bolt just closes.

Good luck-the .257 is a fine cartridge, and I'm sure you'll figure out what it takes to get it to work.

Clarence

Art: I've already gone through the rings and bases and made sure everything was tight before I went out to shoot it. I did note the ill fitting bases and am looking into replacing them when I purchase a new scope for her. I'm going to be on the lookout tonight for some 100gr factory ammo tonight. Still trying to get up the gall to start reloading myself. I have a press and some dies for rounds I already shoot, just have yet to actually buy some powder/primers/bullets and load some rounds. It's on my list of things to get into this summer.

ClaMar: I should clarify the sandbag support. It is a rather LARGE sandbag. Probably 10" front to back. The rear of the bag was roughly under the chamber, and the front of the bag just behind the far end of the foreend. I did not use a rear bag.

Hopefully getting out to the range next Weds/Thurs/Fri to pattern a new turkey gun, so I'll try some lighter rounds if I find them in time.

It may not mean anything at all, but it seemed to me, on looking at the pictures you posted, that the scope is turned 90 degrees clockwise from straight (thought I saw manufacturer insignia on underside). Maybe I'm wrong, and the scope is on straight; but if not, could this be causing trouble?

Best wishes getting your problems resolved; looks like a nice rifle.

Davis Goertzen

Davis: scope's on straight. Top turret was marked "UP" with directional arrow when I was sighting her in. There are BSA appliques on both non-turreted portions of the center section of the scope. Thank you for the thought, though!

Brandon,

I have a 98 military trigger that has the first hump ground off and turned into a single stage. I prefer the two stage triggers myself.

Its yours for the asking if you would like to try a single stage and still stay with the military profile before going to a Timney or the like.

Bob

I would address my bench technique first. Then I would try a scope with a known track record. Thirdly, if you don't reload, you're just gonna have to scatter shot amongst the factory stuff to see what it likes. If possible, I'd stick with flat based bullets. Boat tailed hunting bullets at normal hunting ranges are a cosmetic thing designed to look pretty and are of no real value.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
I would address my bench technique first.

I honestly spend very little time shooting from the bench, let alone at 100yds. Please expand.

quote:

Originally posted by manhasset:
Brandon,

I have a 98 military trigger that has the first hump ground off and turned into a single stage. I prefer the two stage triggers myself.

Its yours for the asking if you would like to try a single stage and still stay with the military profile before going to a Timney or the like.

Bob

Thank you for the offer, Bob. When I decide whether or not to change the trigger I will certainly let you know!

Practice, practice, practice. whether it's dry firing or live, gives you invaluable practice in sight alignment and trigger pull. It's also where you can find out just how accurate your rifle is. You can't find that out shooting off of some sticks or a rolled up poncho. That, of course, doesn't mean that after you have a load developed, you shouldn't practice from field positions.
First off, look at some of the pix of folks with their rifles set up on a bench. Using a mechanical front rest or sand bags. And also a toe bag. Copy that. Ideally, with the right set-up, when the rifle is in the bags, it will be pointed at the bullseye without any movement by you. Then, with the rifle cocked but the chamber empty, sight in at a bullseye that is only slightly larget than the junction of your cross hairs. And squeeze the trigger. If your cross hairs jump off the target, you're doing something wrong. Find out what it is and stop doing it. Often the problem is griping the rifle too hard or twisting the rifle as you bring it to your shoulder. The neat thing about dry fire practice is you can do it on your kitchen table or wherever. And you don't have to worry about recoil or running out of ammo.
Some good sand bags can be made from the legs of little kid's blue jeans. Cut a leg off, put a stout rubber band around one end, fill it full of sand, and put another rubber band around the other end. You want them kinda firm. Some folks fill them with rice or chaff but those bags aren't as stable as the heavier ones filled with sand.

Thank you again, beeman. I've been meaning to invest in a good shooting sled. I'm guessing this would be a good option for load development and siting in a rifle. I did quite a bit of dry fire practice (mostly from field positions) with my .375H&H CZ before my hog hunt last fall and seemed to help a lot with my accuracy out to the 50yds I often practice at. I follow exactly what you're saying about the cross hairs on the bull with the dry firing. I'll have to do some of that with the 98 next week.

I'm sure the sleds work okay, but I prefer the tried and true front and rear bags. The advice you were given earlier is good-if you can't keep the crosshairs on the target when dry-firing, you can't expect any rifle or load to perform well.

If you can do so, try longer ranges than 50 yd. for practicing. I prefer 100 yd. for trying loads, but then 200 and up for real practice.

Clarence

Clarence

Things I would look into are, a rear bag, have gunsmith check crown, and bedding. A good trigger will help, but I don't think that's the majority of your problem. Also swap scope out with one you know, and see what happens.

You mentioned earlier about the trigger hitting the scope. I don't have a 98 but several old FN's that had the same issue. There were a couple of Timney triggers with safety for the 98's on GunsAmerica web site, they were around 80 dollars.. New around 130.00 I have added them to my FN's and they work great.

Well, swapped on a Leupold VXIII 3.5-10x50mm onto the rifle today and headed to the 50yd range with a good set of sandbags and the above mentioned ammo as well as a box of Remington 117gr's.

Used the Federal Partitions for sighting in purposes and put 3 shots into under an inch at 50yds (thus further discrediting my current abilities to shoot at 100yds). Remington's did the same.

Hornady SST and Interlocks as well as the HSM Bergers again shot horribly. I'm starting to think it might be the boattails??

Barrel was cleaned spotlessly yesterday as well as after the range session today. Looked at the crown really closely under a good light and didn't see any obvious dings.

Barrel. Either twisted for 87gr or just burnt.

first, make CERTAIN the gun is unloaded and you follow all safety precautions. YOU are responsible for safety, especially from an internet forum

EMPTY AND MAKE CERTAIN IT IS EMPTY

cock the gun on an empty chamber, and close the action - lay it on the left side (not bolt side) and aim in a safe direction

WATCH THE BOLT HANDLE

and without touching the metal, pull the trigger and watch what the bolt handle does... does it move, jump, lift, drop...

repeat a couple times so you know exactly what it is doing

take the action out of the stock

repeat above on an EMPTY gun .. watch the bolt handle

did it move the same? if not, then you likely have a clearance issue, if yes, then move on to the next

replace the action into the stock, making certain you properly tighten screws, evenly.

look inside the action and make CERTAIN there is a gap between the bottom metal and the action.. it should not TOUCH metal to metal..

if it does touch, you can CHECK it, temp, with a 1/4" washer under the rear tang of the action and the wood.. or two.. just file it so you can install screw

(this is a good point to range test, if you had mag and action touching - be certain your screws are installed properly and will hold the gun into the stock )

but, you can also try
take a cleaning jag and a patch.. oil it is fine...from the breech, insert the patch, and it should be pretty tight... it should be about the same from one end to the other in effort required to move it.. if it changes, easier or harder, mark the cleaning rod right next to the front ring and continue.. looking for any other changes, and mark that.. there COULD be a constriction or looseness in the bore

it is HIGHLY unlikely to be the wrong twist, as nearly any 257 barrel will stabilize the 120 and down... my fav 257 hates light bullets

any of that result in any changes?

if you have a burnt out barrel, its likely in the last 2-3 inches of the barrel, at the muzzle, due to improper cleaning