I have been a long time fan of Sierra bullets and use the 100gr Pro-Hunter exclusivley in my .243. I have found in recovering bullets from deer in the 100-140 lb range that the core is completley seperating from the jacket. I am recovering the remaning jacket from the opposite shoulder, but im not convinced that Sierra bullets, the prohunters, are that suited to being a good performer on deer sized game from a 6mm I emailed Sierra with pictures of deer and projectiles, to no response I have received. I picked up a box of Swift 90gr Scirocco's to try, i'll see how they go.

This is nothing new to me. I saw this occur back in the '80s but with Gamekings and in .277 calibers bullets. I once had three holes going in a deer (near side) at about 50 yards. I now use other brands, particularly core lock/bonded bullets for the most part. Nosler Ballistic Tips are also noted for jacket seperation. Some will swear otherwise but it is true, I;ve seen it. Sierra's are the most accutate bullets on the market and are probably the best for coyotes on down but I would not use them on a trophy!

Sako;

Was that deer dead when you removed the Sierra from it?

Pete A.

quote:

Originally posted by Pete A.:
Sako;

Was that deer dead when you removed the Sierra from it?

Pete A.

Pete, they were dead as can be, bang flop. I think im being to perdantic about trying to find a 6mm projectile to mushroom on the opposite shoulder or bust through from any angle

quote:

Originally posted by sako.:
trying to find a 6mm projectile to mushroom on the opposite shoulder or bust through from any angle

I've had good experience on farm country whitetails using the Nosler Partition but there are shot angles I'll pass on when hunting with 24s or 22s.

The bullets are obviously doing their jobs as the deer are dead and the recovered jackets are on the opposite side of the entrance.

If you want 2 holes, switch to a Partition. But your Sierras are doing just fine considering you are using a small bore rifle.





The 2 photos above are of a Sierra 7mm 130 grain Single Shot Pistol (Pro Hunter) recovered from a buck taken at 108 yards with a 7mm Bullberry carbine. The MV was 2505 fps, and the bullet penetrated from the frontal chest all the way to the rear flank.

Sierras are not bonded core bullets but they sure do kill well. If you are having issues with penetration look to another bullet but bonded core bullets are not required to kill deer. If the deer you a shooting die, why throw good money up in the wind because the industry media promotes premium bullets and their high prices? Your results of your current bullets are in the freezer.

There was a rather extensive test of the ordinary bullets in 6mm. It was about the time the premium bullet craze began. I think the expansion tests were in Handloader Magazine.
The Winchester 100 grn bullet turned out to be the best over all performer by a good bit.

In some preceding issue there had been an exhaustive test of the 30 caliber 180 grain bullets including some premium bullets.
The results were some what humorous and ironic.
There were a number of real duds in the premium bullets. There were also some premium bullets that performed well.
But for the money the plain vanilla Remington 180 grain RN Corelokt performed with the best bullets and at all impact velocities.

That these premium performing standard factory bullets are not used more by reloading hunters is telling about their susceptibility to marketing.

This is an annual topic on this forum. Cup/core separation has been and is a problem with Sierra Gameking, Prohunter, and Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets. Although this may be a monumental problem for some people, it isn’t to me. The only bullets I have recovered in the aforementioned brands and models that have had a cup/core separation were 6mm, 257, and 7mm. They all had two things in common, all were light, fast moving bullets and all of them hit at least one shoulder.

I normally don’t take shoulder shots, when I hit a shoulder it’s a miscalculation on my part. Although the bullets may have failed to hold together, they didn’t fail to do what they’re designed to do, kill animals. I have never recovered a Sierra or Nosler bullet that didn’t hit a shoulder (not all of them failed to hold together either).

As Mikincolo stated this is an annual topic on this and any forum, and yes Sierra bullets and Noslet Ballistic Tips do seperate. Yes I have always had a dead dear with Sierra bullets - so far. As I mentioned, I once actually had three holes on the entrance side of a deer and the deer was killed. I also once had three holes on the exit side. However I am not comfortable with that especially if it could have been a trophy of a life time. I could have used a shotgun/buckshot and gotten the same results.
Earlier this year a friend of mine and I were target shooting into a 6X5 round hay bale. The bale has had several hundred rounds fired through it to the point where the bullets can be found in powdered hay on the far side. He shoots a 7mm RM with 140 gr. Nosler BTs. I found one of his Nosler BT copper jackets. There was absolutely no indication of lead bonding in it. I showed him the retrieved jacket to which he gave his normal response of "I not hunting hay bales!". No less than two months later, on a south Texas ranch, he came across a 200 pound boar hog. By his own admission, he said he made a broad-side shot on the hog with his 7mm/140 gr. Nosler BT combination. The bullet exploded on the shoulder and the hog ran off in the thick brush and was not found. Later that day, after confessing his story, he asked me what would be a good/affordable bullet for his 7mm. By the way he is an experienced shooter/reloader. I recommended he find Remington CoreLokts or something in the partition variety although the partitions would not be as affordable. I also told him that Hornady was probably a good choice in the Interlocks although I have suspicions about them too. The moral to the story is "why roll the dice with a bullet that is known to have problems"? I am sure any bullet can fail under the exact right circumstances, but why not reduce the chances especially on a game animal you will want to take home?

Rae59

Tha same bullet, given 200-300 fps less velocity, would have penetrated that shoulder and quickly dispatched the boar. It was not so much bullet failure but instead a failure in selecting a proper bullet for the cartridge and game being hunted.

Hogs are in good numbers here, and while I am not exactly a proponent of using BTs for them, I have killed LOTS of hogs with BTs. The 150 grain BT at 2780 fps from a 20" .308 is the leader of the pack and responsible for several dozen hogs -- many of them with exits. I never lost or wounded a hog with them, either.

In fact, recovering one is a rarity. I've also used the 7mm 120 and 140 grain BTs and the 6.5mm 120 BTs among others, but those have served me well enough that I have confidence in the fact that if I do my part, they'll cleanly dispatch the animal.

My all-time favorite hog bullet is the 6.5mm Sierra 140 grain GameKing at 2500-2750 fps MV. The recovered Sierra is the inset photo.

I've had a few cup-core separations with Sierra bullets in the past and even a complete disintegration; obviously every time the animal was dead, but I didn't like it anyway; since, I've switched to Hornady Interlocks, that keep toghether better IMO and are accurate as well.

quote:

Originally posted by wildboar:
I've had a few cup-core separations with Sierra bullets in the past and even a complete disintegration; obviously every time the animal was dead, but I didn't like it anyway; since, I've switched to Hornady Interlocks, that keep toghether better IMO and are accurate as well.

This is my experience as well. I find that the Hornady Interlocks give up a little bit in accuracy to the Sierra but the interlock ring does hold the cup and core together.

I probably shoot more game with partitions and accubonds than anything else. However,
I have one particular rifle that I have never shot anything but sierras through. I bought it from a friend. It is a winchester 300 wsm. When I got it it was scoped and zeroed. My friend gave me 20 loaded rounds. They were 150 grain sierra spitzers. I fired two rounds to check zero. I went through the rest of the rounds, duplicated his load and have fired 8 more times at animals. So the tally is 26 rounds fired at deer, hogs and turkey. Twenty-six animals,DRT. Not one ran off. I do not have the bullets or the photos to show what the bullets looked like if/when recovered. However, I would not hesitate for an instant to shoot deer or hogs with 30 caliber Sierras at the ranges I shoot, being 200 yds and under.
GWB

Good looking left-hand TC Bobby.

Thanks, Mick. I am actually right-handed but left eye-dominant, and I've found the pickings are a little slim for the lefties.

Just a question to all the people reading this thread. Do you think we are sometimes pushing bullets too fast? Not allowing them to perform as designed?

Absolutely!

Sacrifice a couple hundred fps, and you can enjoy premium-type bullet performance fom standard bullets. That's exactly why I love the Contender format.

For instance, my 6.5 Bullberry IMP (aka 6.5x30-30 AI) drives a 140 grain bullet around 2500 fps or a (129/130 to 2625 fps)from its 26" barrel. That gives you amply-flat trajectory and plenty of power for deer or hogs out to 300 yards, which is as far as (or farther than!) most people should be shooting anyway.

At those velocities, standard bullets penetrate exceptionally well and still expand more than sufficiently.

A 140 grain BT from a 7mm Ultra Mag may come apart violently and expand minimally on a hog's shoulder with an impact of, say, 3250 fps. (And that's why Nosler doesn't recommend such usage anyway.) But that same bullet from a 7-08 or a 7mm Bullberry or 7-30 Waters will probably penetrate all the way through and kill the animal with minimal fuss.

Personally, I am tired of all the mega-magnum hype and get frustrated when I hear someone say a bullet "failed" when the bullet wasn't designed for such applications in the first place. The real failure was in the bullet choice itself.

If we listen a bit more to logic and actually heed the manufacturer's advise, we'll see few of those so-called "failures".

That's speaking from experience, not opinion...

I've had a couple folks ask about rounds I have mentioned, so here are 3 of my favorite hunting cartridges with a 30-30 factory load shown for reference. This is just a quick snapshot, so I apologize for the quality & slight perspective distortion.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Just a question to all the people reading this thread. Do you think we are sometimes pushing bullets too fast? Not allowing them to perform as designed?

That was the question I asked of Sierra, I'll slow them down and see how they go.

cup and cores at a m/v of 2850-2900 or less are marvelous penetrators and will mushroom like a postor picture.
i have always regarded the sierra game kings as a varmint deer bullet, in that they act like a varmint bullet they will kill stuff right now but a lung type shot is the best for them.
i shoot a lot of hornady interlocks and they usually punch out two holes even through bone.
my wife shoots them at a m/v of 2775 in her 7x57 and i use them at 2850 in my 7x57 ackley.
she can't track anything other then a sale on purses ,but she doesn't need any one to go hunting with her.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Thanks, Mick. I am actually right-handed but left eye-dominant, and I've found the pickings are a little slim for the lefties.

Every bullet jacket I have removed from the off side of an animal after the core seperated did not survive. I have never had a single animals jump up and run away thanking me for removing that inferior bullet.

Frank-

Nice collection there!

Actually, what I was referring to is the aftrmarket stocks for Contenders. Options are somewhat limited for LH when compared to right-handed stocks.

As to me, since I am right-handed but am left eye- dominant, I sitll shoot right-handed bolt guns. Had a few lefties, but those never panned out for me.

I remember a nice buck Whitetail I hit that was quartering sharply toward me. I was using a 7MM 160gr. BTSP Gameking. The bullet hit the inside point of the shoulder and angled back into the front of the opposite hindquarter, after penetrating 6 inches of hindquarter it stopped under the hide. One of my hunting buddies cut it out for me and as he picked the bullet up by the jacket the core fell out of it. It failed he says! 2600 fps is a very good velocity.

Bobby, you are the man! Excellent pictures of bullets, fired bullets and different cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by TR:
Bobby, you are the man! Excellent pictures of bullets, fired bullets and different cartridges.

Yeah!!

I'd like a lesson on how to do that captioning on the computer.

Can you help, Bobby?

Thanks, guys. I use PhotoShop. Whatever color I want the text, I simply click on an item or object in the picture that color and go from there.

Sometimes I'll blur or darken/lighten an area to make the type stand out more.

YOu can add borders as well. But for anything other than a simple border, I use Corel Photo Pro x2.

Once you get the hang of it, it's really quick and easy to do.

Photobucket, which is free and a good way to use your pictures in places such as AR, also offers a free editing system once you've uploaded your photos, and you can add text there as well.

Here are a couple borders from Corel. In the top picture, I actually went back in and added the simple black line around the edges through Adobe PhotoShop. The other picture -- the one that looks like a transparency -- is nothing more than a print with a "film" border.

Bobby,

Your pictures are stellar!!
Great creativity..

Well after a week or so i got a response from Sierra, basically slow them down or hit them behind the shoulder is the go.

quote:

Thank you for the pictures.
Sometimes things like this happen and the results leave us without an explanation.

The 6mm 100 grain ProHunters are certainly tough enough for our Whittail deer which can be twice and then some larger than the Fallow deer. Some times they do penetrate completely and sometimes they don't. It seems if the range is short and the impact velocity is high there will be less penetration with more bullet deformation than if the range is longer and the impact velocity is lower and the penetration is greater.
Rich

quote:

Hello Ben:

Usually don't get many complaints about the Pro_Hunter bullets but I note you are hitting directly into the shoulder bone--that does help stop game quicker when using small caliber rounds but will separate on heavier bone hits with the high velocity. Here in the states most hunter's make soft-tissue shots--wanting to same as much meat as possible.

Candidly, that is the toughest 6mm hunting bullet we make so you may have to consider another brand if predictable and deeper penetration is needed and expected.

Thanks for the chance--stay safe and good hunting!

robert

Great pictures! Photoshop is sure easier than the wand and vignettes on the old Beseler.

As far as Sierra bullets go, I've had very good luck with them using heavy for caliber bullets at moderate speeds. A super accurate 300 Gr. Game King @ 2550 fps out of my 375 H&H is my favorite load for moose and simply flattens black bear. I don't have any great pictures, but the 300 gr. GK has always done the job for me without separating. The 30 cal. GK at 2550 from my '06 is also very accurate. I've had some separations but the bullet works fine as long as you don't need to take animals through big bones. If I need to anchor goats or bear through the shoulders I go to a 165 gr. A-Frame in the '06.

Smaller caliber Sierra bullets seem to have thinner jackets and, in my experience, come apart more often than bigger calibers. For example, I've had several 7mm Sierra bullets separate on black bear, goat, and caribou. All of those animals were well hit with second shots and died quickly, but on critters like goats and bear the bullet needs to punch through bone with integrity but still expand on softer tissue. For 7mm and smaller deer bullets I've gone to slighly less accurate CoreLokt, Hot Cor, and Interlock bullets rather than Game Kings or Pro Hunters.

I took a Texas Whitetail several years ago with a .30 cal Sierra 165 grain BTHP bullet at something like 125 yards. The Whitetail was going away, I flinched, and the bullet took the little deer aft of the rib cage. I was sick, because I knew I had done a messy gut shot, even if the deer did drop like a stone. When I finally walked over to the carcass I was amazed. The Sierra had opened up such that it blew most of the guts out thru the brisket. I recovered nothing of the bullet, but I sure wished I could have done a post mortem on that slug. It hit just like a grenade. That was also the last big game animal I shot with a Sierra, although I still load Sierras for varmints.
LLS

I've been hunting with Sierra bullets since 3 decades and, true -but rarely- I had a few core separations with BTSP GK (never with the much harder HP GK) but anyone of those bullets never failed to kill quicky, which is what really counts in my eyes.

In my experience, typical Sierra GK behaviour is more like this :


L : 160 BTSP GK (7x64) from frontal shot on Muntjac at 80 m. Full penetration and bullet recovered from ham. 181% expansion - 48 % retained weight.

R : 165 BTSP GK (.300 Win Mag) from frontal shot on Red stag at 250 m. Bullet recovered from hide pouch on opposing flank. 204% expansion - 78% retained weight.

BTW, these are the only bullets I ever recovered...

This is perhaps silly of me but I have the last three seasons shot

21 deer, muntjacs, roe, fallow and CWD, and one boar, ranges from 12 meters to 170 meters, with 150 grains SGK in a 308 Win,

I have zero 0, nill recovered bullets to show for this and in no one occassion have I had multiple wound channels.

Being the silly ass Swede I am I continue to use them for the 90% of the hunting that I do, why cause the work.

My fem öre, regards Chris

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Just a question to all the people reading this thread. Do you think we are sometimes pushing bullets too fast? Not allowing them to perform as designed?

Mick,

You got that right! That's as correct a question/statement that I've ever seen!

quote:

Originally posted by HankinColorado:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Just a question to all the people reading this thread. Do you think we are sometimes pushing bullets too fast? Not allowing them to perform as designed?

Mick,

You got that right! That's as correct a question/statement that I've ever seen!

im going to slow down my 6mm bullets and see how they go.

quote:

Originally posted by Husqvarna M98:
This is perhaps silly of me but I have the last three seasons shot

21 deer, muntjacs, roe, fallow and CWD, and one boar, ranges from 12 meters to 170 meters, with 150 grains SGK in a 308 Win,

I have zero 0, nill recovered bullets to show for this and in no one occassion have I had multiple wound channels.

Being the silly ass Swede I am I continue to use them for the 90% of the hunting that I do, why cause the work.

My fem öre, regards Chris

the larger caliber prohunters and gamekings are much stiffer than the lighter pills. I still dont think theya re in the same leauge as the Hornady interlock.

Just my personal feelings on the matter, but if the core separates from the jacket, to be that is a bullet failure.
However, as the late Warren Page once asked, At what point during the deer's demise did that bullet fail? He does make a point.
Paul B.

I like the SGK's in .308" for whitetails out of a 308 or 30-06. No need for a premium bullets on WT's out of these cartridges and their speeds. No Texas heartshots, but fine for almost any other shot. Some I've recovered had core seperation, but the core and the jecket are ussually found near each other at the tail end of the wound channel.

But move to a 243 and I believe that a tougher bullet is called for. I believe the NP is the perfect bullet for the 243 for deer. Good expansion with its soft tip, but if bone is encountered you will still have excellent penetration, which is needed for the smaller cartridges on some still reasonable shot angles.

My son is going to try the 80gr TSX'x. Looking forward to seeing how they perform. With the extra velocity of the 80 grainers, should be good.

JPK

Just as I had lost faith in AR along comes this thread.

Differing points of view, evidence based and reasoned discussion what a refreshing change (helps it's on one of my favourite topics)

Bobby is a treasure. Thanks to him I was saved from going down the 120gr TTSX route in my 7-08. Now I see the pictures I am VERY glad.

Anyhow I use a lot of sierra bullets and have shot a lot of deer with them. 85gr BTHP, 100gr BTSP (both 6mm gamekings) 140gr pro hunter in 7mm and 150gr pro hunter in 308. I really like them.

I find that for a 243 to kill well it must be driven fast and expand well.

I've found that core seperation has no effect on success provided the cartridge is match to the quarry. If you are using it on very large deer, moving deer or at extreme angles then it might. I don't so it doesn't.

Slowing down a bullet to avoid core jacket seperation is also going to limit expansion with consequently reduced lethality. Be careful what you wish for!