Now before I get friend Kabluewy all worked up, let me preface this by outlining the scenario.
I live in a rural residential area on 5.3 acres. There are houses northeast at 150 yards, east at 200 yards, west at 50 yards and south at 300, but because of topography -- a hill to the south falling to a creek bottom transecting the middle of our lot to a hill climbing up to the north, there are some "safe" and responsible shooting lanes.
We are plagued with deer and black bears.
I would especially like to safely and humanely harvest one of the blacktail bucks that gobble our apples. But neighbor relations are a concern. When I shot a turkey with my 16-gauge in April, there were phone calls. I coudl use a bow, but deer and bears often run 100 or more yards even after being double-lunged or heart shot, and that could be very awkward.
So now I am thinking that head-shooting a deer at close range (under 50 yards) would net me some venison and keep the local peace if the report was not much louder than a .22.
So I am feverishly reviewing the possibilities of something like a .22 Hornet with cast bullet, a .25-20, or a .222 with cast for this operation.
Any thoughts?
Side notes: Any centerfire of .223 or larger is legal in Oregon for deer. I have an unfilled deer tag, and am not in any way suggesting poaching.
Kabluewy: No, I'm not going to shoot at a mule deer way out there with a varmint bullet!

.224 cal.
45 gr. tsx.
53 gr. tsx.
60 gr. partition
70 gr. tsx

GWB

This is a very interesting and IMO, real-world dilemma. Hummm

So, I have a question.

Is your main concern ricochet of the bullet?

Or the noise?

KB

.22 Hornet or .222/.223 with the bullets Geedubya listed, head only shots @ 50 to 75 yards should do the job you are looking for.

Get yourself a pop-up blind and let the deer get used to it.

quote:

Is your main concern ricochet of the bullet?

Or the noise?

My gues is both of the above and the animal running on to another persons property before realizing it is dead.

Pop-up blind,

25 paces.

Shot with a Canon T2i & 55-250mm zoom lens.



GWB

PS: No cameras were harmed while shooting this pix.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
let me preface this by outlining the scenario.

I live in a rural residential area on 5.3 acres. There are houses northeast at 150 yards, east at 200 yards, west at 50 yards and south at 300, but because of topography -- a hill to the south falling to a creek bottom transecting the middle of our lot to a hill climbing up to the north, there are some "safe" and responsible shooting lanes.

We are plagued with deer and black bears.

I would especially like to safely and humanely harvest one of the blacktail bucks that gobble our apples.

But neighbor relations are a concern. When I shot a turkey with my 16-gauge in April, there were phone calls.

I coudl use a bow, but deer and bears often run 100 or more yards even after being double-lunged or heart shot, and that could be very awkward.

So now I am thinking that head-shooting a deer at close range (under 50 yards) would net me some venison and keep the local peace if the report was not much louder than a .22.

So I am feverishly reviewing the possibilities of something like a .22 Hornet with cast bullet, a .25-20, or a .222 with cast for this operation.

Any thoughts?

Side notes:
am not in any way suggesting poaching.

Thanks for letting (inviting) me to respond. I can see how this could be a common situation. I've edited your initial post to organize thoughts.

I'll go straight to the bottom line, that if I had the situation you described, I would seriously consider a cross bow, with the meanist broadhead I could find. And practice using it.

When you mention black bears, that's the deciding point, and that solution also resolves the ricochet and noise problem.

Also, I figure that with a proper hit, a deer or bear ain't going far. The probability of a distance runner is way more, IMO, with a downloaded 22 cal, or small cal cast bullets, and you still have the noise.

Just my thoughts, no offence intended.

You could also use a snare, and spear. That would give you an excuse to wear your loincloth camo hunting gear.

Kidding aside, I have a similar issue on my property in SE AK, which is actually in the city limits - it's illegal to shoot guns therein. I have sitka deer passing through or nearby frequently, and bears too. I've given it some thought, and the cross bow is the only answer that I can come up with that gives the highest probability of resolving all the dilemmas at once. No solution is without risk of failure, except just not making the shot.

Honestly, my very last choice would be a 22 anything - reduced or not. And anything bigger is sure to bounce into the neighbors turf.

Too bad a 22LR isn't legal. If it was, before I reduced loads in a 22 or 25 centerfire, or use cast bullets, if I just had to use a firearm, I would head or neck shoot a deer (not a black bear) with a 22LR, with a suppressor, but the cross bow is cheaper and more of a sure thing, IMO.

I would dearly love to mess around with a high quality suppressor and a single shot 45-70 loaded with some 405gr bullets at sub-sonic vel. The cost is what has stopped me for such a specialized firearm. Beisdes, it's not legal everywhere for hunting, and wouldn't solve my problem in SE AK. For your situation it wouldn't be a good idea either because the slow 45 cal slug will bounce a long way, even after passing through a deer.

KB

There really is no way around the noise issue even with a 223. You will get the same phone calls you did when you used a 16 gauge so you might as well use what you want.

A CNS shot with a 20 cal, 40 gr bullet at 25 to 50 yds will kill deer or hogs cleanly. We've no bear where I hunt or I would have tried that too.

I shoot a 62 lb draw weight Matthews FX. I'm shooting 100 gr. G5 broadheads with a 1-1/16" cutting diameter. When tagged with a properly placed arrow, most animals run less than fifty yds. I do not know whether its the noise factor or not, but many times they will bolt after being hit, run 10 to 20 yds., stand for a moment, walk a couple steps, wobble and go down. I usually wait 30 minutes or so to make sure they have expired before approaching a bow kill.

Best

GWB

Bill -

I suspect Kabluewy's cross-bow suggestion may be the easiest, cheapest, and best in the long run.

If, however, I had a few more bucks to spend, I'd think strongly about investing a bit of money in a suppressor permit. I know they ARE legal in Oregon as long as you keep the feds happy by giving them $200.

If I had a .30 suppressor permit, I'd then build myself a nice little sub-sonic .30/.221 Fireball (an uncopy-righted .300 Whisper), and use that.

I'd be just as happy with a suppressed .32-20 too, but that would require a suppressor which couldn't be easily used on a bunch of my other .30s.

Edited to add: I'd also be pleased with a .357 suppressor, and a .357 mag loaded sub-sonic, and built on a Martini-Cadet action. When I had the suppressor on it, I'd probably shoot .38 Specials, or either .38 Short or .38 Long Colt in it. Brass for all are fairly often easy to come by for little or nothing.

a suppressed, sub-sonic 180 gr. pill out of a 300 whisper would definitely do the trick. Here if you have a corporation, say $250 for the tax stamp, $600 for the suppressor. Have a bolt gun or AR chambered for the Whisper, with a threaded rifle barrel for the suppressor, the dies, brass etc, that would be the way to go.

GWB

If the noise of a 16 or 12 gauge is an issue, then a single shot 44 Rem Mag in something like an H&R/New England firearms break open might be a better bet. Load or buy 44 Special shells/loadings and the noise level should be the same as either of the shotgun rounds, but with properly placed shots, bear or deer is going to drop on the spot. JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I'd also be pleased with a .357 suppressor, and a .357 mag loaded sub-sonic.

That may be a good idea, however expensive, and may not be enough for black bear, and also may still require head or neck shots.

The hollow point bullets may reduce the ricochet. Many unknowns there.

With a firearm, the only way to surely eliminate ricochet is use something in the 20cal or perhaps 17cal at std vel. In a 223 cal, many varmint bullets will explode and not ricochet, but there are several problems. The bullet has to hit something first, and a horizontal miss is highly likely to cause problems. Then there's the noise. Even suppressed, a full load, necessary to fragment the bullet, will be louder than a 22LR.

KB

A .38 Special is plenty for black bear. He is not having to hunt them in the bush. He can pick his shots. A .38 Special in the ear hole will do the job just dandy.

I used to use an un-suppressed one on my stump farm west of Eugene where the blackies came in to my apple trees and broke limbs, trees, etc. Worked just fine, and I ate enough bears to make up for the apples and trees they got or ruined. My rifle WAS a Martini-Cadet with iron sights.

I'm likeing the idea better all the time.

I also like the idea of a 44 suppressed, or the 30 cal whisper.

Another idea that I pondered is one of those little Beretta simi-auto carbines in 45 ACP. Wow what a thumper that would be suppressed, and the cans would be relatively reasonable too.

We are talking about the range (50yds or less) within which the 45 ACP would be really effective, naturally sub-sonic and thus real quite.

I dunno, perhaps a single shot is better, to avoid the temptation of throwing too much lead, and getting into trouble.

KB

Did not think of the 38 Special. If anyone makes a break open single shot in 357 Mag, just get one of those and use the 38 Specials. Would a 158 grain wadcutter at 38 Special velocities do the job?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Did not think of the 38 Special. If anyone makes a break open single shot in 357 Mag, just get one of those and use the 38 Specials. Would a 158 grain wadcutter at 38 Special velocities do the job?

Hornet for the deer, head/neck shots. H&R makes the Handi Rifle in 357 Mag.

Either full or semi-wadcutters will do the job. If a person keeps his eyes open at gunshows for used moulds, he can also occasionally come across moulds for heavier .38 (up to 200 grain .357") bullets which will do even better.

I have shot a few using full wadcutter 148 grain bullets from a 4" Colt .357 revolver (the predecessor to the Colt Trooper) when I was working as a lookout on a tower during summer vacations from the University of Oregon. I must admit they weren't purely legal, but they were meat, and as there was no electricity to the towers I worked in, and thus no refrigeration, at times meat was more important than legal was.

Sixty years ago, folks understood that distinction. Today the Sierra Club would have me boiled in oil if I did that.

Just passin' through- aren't people taking pigs with .35 and larger caliber air guns? Maybe one of those and a pop-up blind. Ya get one shot, though.

-used a suppressed .223 not long ago- impressive noise reduction.

quote:

Originally posted by craigster:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Did not think of the 38 Special. If anyone makes a break open single shot in 357 Mag, just get one of those and use the 38 Specials. Would a 158 grain wadcutter at 38 Special velocities do the job?

Hornet for the deer, head/neck shots. H&R makes the Handi Rifle in 357 Mag.

Craig - For the deer, using head or neck shots, I'd even more recommend the .38 Special. With a charge of about 3.1 grains of Bullseye and a 146-158 gr. bullet from an NEF rifle, it will hardly be heard, while the Hornet, because of the bullet and gas speed, will be fairly noisy.

AC, FYI, the statute of limitations never runs out with the Sierra Club.

BTW, the 35 cal airgun is a great idea.

KB

Wow, guys, thanks for the insights.
KB: Crossbows as well as spears are not lawful in Oregon for deer harvest. My main concern is not ricochet but noise. That's why I was thinking a little 45-grain gas-checked hard cast from a Hornet delivered in the ear at 25 yards and at about 1050 fps would be the nuts. I'd "shoot" for subsonic.
Ideally, I could wait for someone in the neighborhood to run a chain saw, or for a plane to fly over!



I'm basing the noise issues on my experience with a lot of other centerfire cartridges compared to a little .32-20.
AC: A suppressor would of course work, but next year, after all the application stuff ...

Here's one of the lads I had in mind, in the front yard ...

Why not one of those new air guns in 38 caliber?

other than the antlers I'd think he'd eat just fine.

GWB

http://www.americanairgunhunte...m/airgun_hunter.html

http://www.crosman.com/rogue#2/versatility

I tried to find some interesting viewing. There sure are a lot of hokey videos on youtube, but here are some that aren't too bad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tZVYCKPGfo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=A2SqGcdUJR8

I doubt that these are real wild hogs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=0eUx_oEpyTw

Although fenced in, still a good demo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...u-lc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...TQCU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...g6PI&feature=related

The cross bows are so quiet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzVhijcEYLA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxHnWbhoXvk

The turn around time for a suppressor permit is now supposed to be a lot faster than in the past. Besides that, suppressors are a hoot to shoot.

If you start a round out subsonic in a suppressed rifle it will be very very quiet with the right suppressor, think Hollywood quiet. If you start a round out super sonic it will generate a definite noise, but even that noise is "different" and had to recognize and also to determine it's source.

The problem with the archery type gear is that wild run that many of the critters go on when stuck in the ribs.

Look at those suppressors.

Oregon regs just say it has to be .22 cal or larger, and a center fire.

.22 hornet would fit the bill.

Maybe an FN 5.7x28. You could pick up one with a threaded muzzle for you new toy next year.

I don't see where the large caliber air rifles would be legal in OR.

I think we need to see some bona-fidees that Bill/Oregon is actually a hunter and not a GW trying to pick up on some possibly illegal hunting tactics.

Those air guns are totally impressive. roger

Recently shot a .32-20. Factory ammo is under powered, so not at all noisy. Not as snappy as a high speed .22 RF, I'd say. Kind of a "dead' sound.



32-20 at 50 yards/open sights/my cataracts


-the strips of tape are an inch wide.

,357/.44 mag in a Marlin lever, or a Ruger bolt loaded down would would about duplicate the circumstances, as already noted. And there is that follow-up shot.

I would assume it is legal to shoot under those conditions. It would not be here in Arizona. Too close to an occupied dwelling. If that is not the case there then get one of the new 308 Remingtons with the barrel already threaded and put a supressor on it and load some subsonic rounds and have at it. I shot one and it was no louder than clapping your hands and the accuracy was gilt edged. Makes for pretty expensive venison and wouldn't be for me as I don't even like venison but surely would like to have an excuse to buy one of those Remingtons and a supressor. Just can't justify the expense just to shoot and don't have anything I really want to trade. I don't know if a supressor is as much trouble as an SBR to move around ,if it is they wouldn't be worth it. It's not much trouble to get the permit and pay the tax but you have to be very careful when transporting especially out of state.

For a few lbs of venison?

Interesting videos:

The first and last ones show the difference in supersonic and subsonic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taL7Vmip39s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...RM9s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...a8-A&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...4uQc&feature=related

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
For a few lbs of venison?

Man, it's an excuse to buy a gun.

quote:

Man, it's an excuse to buy a gun.

And a silencer!

I think it was on tv that I heard when a human hears one shot, they are usually puzzled by the direction and if they really heard a shot. But they are alert and if a second shot is fired, they can usually detect the direction. So it is one shot only. I don't think a cast bullet is a good choice even though they are much quieter. Spending $$$$ for a suppressor for a few pounds of venison---buy a side of beef. They are eating your apples so I'd make a trap baited with apples.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I think we need to see some bona-fidees that Bill/Oregon is actually a hunter and not a GW trying to pick up on some possibly illegal hunting tactics.

I'll verify that he is a hunter.....

and not a Game Warden trying to do some baiting...

I can verify that a 44 mag rifle shooting standard load 44 specials is indeed quiet.
It makes less noise than a 410 shotgun.
Your neighbors will hear it, but its not starteling.

Cheers, John

John: Thanks for backing up my non-GW bona fides.


Guys, air guns are not legal for anything but silver gray squirrels in Oregon.
There's this very affordable Savage 23D in the Hornet at a local pawn shop that has me thinking ...

Just for the heck of it, here are some decibel readings from a variety of long and handguns. I'm surprised there isn't more of a spread.
Unfortunately, this site does not list readings from small rifle cartridges such as .22LR, /22 Hornet or .25-20.

http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml