So my 8 year old daughter is a pretty enthusiastic hunter that has hunted a couple deer and turkey already at her tender age.

She went ahead and entered an essay into a DNR and wildlife congress sponsored event for the once in a lifetime opportunity to be issued a mentored bear hunt license as a child. (I'm currently on the 14 year preference point plan to do the very same hunt...10 years to go!)

She has a beautiful little pre-64 .243 featherweight with a nice 1-4x Schmidt and Bender scope and a custom 11-1/4" to 12-1/8" length of pull stock. (two recoil pads so it will grow with her) We have a case of Hornady 87gr SST Custom Lite low recoil ammo that she uses that makes the recoil of the gun effectively 8lbs or so. She shoots it marvelously and has no issues whatsoever using it for hunting since she was 6.

I'm enthusiastic about the rifle above because she is surgically accurate with it, has no fear of the gun, and the ballistics are a lazer beam where she aims and fires with the shot being true. All good things. I'm concerned about the gun because I'm not sure if it will penetrate, create a wound channel, and kill a large black bear ideally. (there are 300-500lb black bear in the area)

Alternative number two is a savage 20 gauge slug rifle I'm building for the kids now with a short stock and a reasonable optic. With hornady 250gr sabot loads it will surely make a great big entry wound but it has a few concerns too. The gel test revealed it penetrates gel to 7.5" which seems to be not a lot of penetration.

The Muzzle energy of both options are about the same at 1400-1600 ft lbs. The energy stays for a long time with 243, it sheds down to around 900ft lbs at a 100 yards with the slug. The recoil of the slug is more, about 50% more recoil than the .243. Lastly, the drop of the slug is pretty extreme where a 100 yd zero might mean the slug is off over 2" in points in between 0-100 yards also.

Given this scenario, which option would you select for a young female hunter that weighs 90lbs, and why?

Another option I considered is slipping a "Mickey Finn" into her .243 on the day of the hunt, a heavier recoiling .243 with a better bullet than a Hornady SST 87gr option.

However, as I perused nosler.com they only make an 85gr partition as an option. More muzzle velocity and better construction, but not sure its a monumental leap forward.

Barnes makes a TTSX boattail 80gr option with again more recoil and muzzle velocity, but perhaps not a monumental leap forward from what we have on the table already for the .243.

Federal makes a 100gr nosler partition load, so perhaps that's the best option of the above?

Norma has a 100gr Oryx loading for .243.


In the shotgun slug world, the only remotely manageable slug I could find in 20ga was the Hornady 250gr Sabot FTX Custom LIte, 2-3/4" with a MV of 1600 and 1421 ft lbs of energy. (which is actually a lot less when you go from a 28" test barrel to a 22" real barrel, then realize at 50 yards to the target its more like 900ft lbs.

It sounds like she entered a contest but hasn't actually won it? If that's right, I'd just try some Partitions and have them ready, just in case.

If she's accustomed to shooting the rifle she will never notice the difference in the recoil of the heavier load.

There are places that a black bear can grow to 300-500 pounds, but the place they are most often found at that weight is the imagination. Few blacks will be heavier than a good Northern whitetail. Don't overthink this situation.

Yup, what stonecreek said.

Don’t be in too much of a rush. What will she do when she is 15 or 60?

A tough bullet means a 243 is deadly on bigger game. The Norma Oryx is what I would use in mine if after big Red Stag etc.

But get a 7x57 - my daughter prefers my 7x57 to 243. Move of a push than a kick. And deadly at the other end.

A 20 bore can be a very kicky thing, especially if carefully aimed.

A black bear is no harder to kill than a big deer. A 243 should work nicely. My gunsmith built a 243 for a client and he has literally shot hundreds of animals with the 85 NP. One of the guides on the AK Forum posted his son's pix with what I would guess is 1,000# cow moose he killed with his 243 and 80 TSX. If your girl shoots like you say I'd expect a very dead bear.

Mark

Just pick the toughest bullet you can.

Make sure she has a good clean broad side shot.

Be ready to do some tracking.

If at all possible use a blood trailing hound.

Bears can be tough follow their hair soaks up a lot of blood.

quote:

(I'm currently on the 14 year preference point plan to do the very same hunt...10 years to go!)

What state are you planning on hunting in that 14 preference points well not get you a tag.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
If she's accustomed to shooting the rifle she will never notice the difference in the recoil of the heavier load.

There are places that a black bear can grow to 300-500 pounds, but the place they are most often found at that weight is the imagination. Few blacks will be heavier than a good Northern whitetail. Don't overthink this situation.

Bears must be the most exaggerated thing when they are alive and the fastest shrinking thing around when they're dead. Big bears will turn into 2 year-olds if you're not careful. I trap bears, and those shrink while they are alive. Perhaps someday there will be a scientific study to explain it.

In the .243, I like the Federal Premium 100 grain Partition load.

Answers to a lot of questions that were posted here:

@Dogleg No, my daughter’s essay on conservation and bear hunting was chosen at the wildlife congress to be awarded a bear hunting license and a local mentor for 2018. It happens to be in the State with more B&C bears than any other. In the Zone with more B&C golds than any others. In the county with the most B&C entries for Black bear than any other in the USA.

@Stonecreek and @theback40 is your opinion the same in light of the facts above?

@Heym SR20 no idea what you mean by don’t be in a rush, but I suspect it may not be a pleasant conversation for you.

@Mark H. Young thank you for your advice.

@p dog shooter thank you for your advice. We will have dogs available so it may allow for trailing if the bear runs 200 yards before going down. I also found out that in this particular hunt the DNR allows me to have my own rifle so I’ll bring something formidable along in the event the animal charges during recovery.

@p dog shooter you misunderstood. I have 4 preference points. I personally would need 14 preference points for the best area of WI. 8-9 for the second best area. People in our area put their points in their will so someone else can inherit them for a chance to go after trophy black bear. 700-800lb bear have been hunted in these areas with many 450-550lb bears being taken annually.

@Charles_Helm thank you for your reply. I’ll look into that 100gr load also. I liked its weight and I certainly like partitions. When I hunted bear myself I used a 175gr partition out of a 7x57. The bear would not stand broadside for me so I center punched the bear. It went about 4-6’. Necropsy showed the organs had literally turned the consistency of jello from the shock at 50 yards. I was astounded that the gasses ultimately killed the animal more so than the bullet mushroom.

Zone A 8 or more points

Zone B 11 or more points

Zone C 1 point

Zone D 5 or more points

Fresh from the DNR web site.

As I thought 14 points would get you any Zone you wanted.

I been hunting bears in Wis. from when one only need a small or big game Lic.

If you are determined to shoot a B@C bear you most likely well be going home empty handed.

That is 6 to 11 years of waiting for zero


Big bears are there but they are rare.

I live in prime bear country seen 10 so far this year biggest 350 plus by fall pushing 500.

I seen one bear alive in Wis. that would honestly go over 600. He walked about 10 feet in front of my cruiser after I hit the brakes hard. That was in Zone A by Winter Wis.

A friend shot one that went 586 not field dressed. Zone A by Exeland Wis.

700lb bears make the state news I only heard about 3 or so.

800 pound bear in Wis. haven't seen one on the scale yet.

Not that long ago the average bear killed in Wis. was around 150 pounds

You only need 7 more for B, 4 more for A, 2 more for D

Both my daughter and myself have killed 500lb plus bears in zone D

Last hunt my son and I killed 300lb plus bears.

My daughter has a tag this year she plans on shooting the first legal bear that walks in.

Working full time not a lot of time to hunt.

If you really are intent on shooting a big bear go hunting with Captain Purvis. That way you can hunt for one every year until you draw a Wis. tag

http://forums.accuratereloadin...2100588/m/9001085212

Specifically, in 2018, the results were:

Zone A - 8 preference points, plus 9th year application, 88.7% chance of getting a permit. (10 years to guarantee a permit)

Zone B - 11 preference points, plus 12th year application, a 46.2% chance of getting a permit.(14 years to guarantee a permit)

Zone C - 1 preference point, plus 2nd year application, a 31.9% chance of getting a permit. (4 years to guarantee a permit)

Zone D - 5 preference points, plus 6th year application, a 20.3% chance of getting a permit. (8 years to guarantee a permit)


Now this is where speculation happens. The number of applicants per year has gone from about 8000 applicants statewide to over 125,000 applicants in 2018. A jump of nearly 10,000 applicants from 2017 to 2018 alone. At predicted increases in permit requests and increasing preference points, the odds are that the preference points required will increase in the future in the same way there has been a 60% increase in applications from 2008 to 2018.

Then it also goes into available permits per year which has never been higher than 2018 at roughly 13000 permits issued based upon bear density and age estimates by biologists at the DNR. Since there is a noted (But slight) decline in bears harvested by age it is likely that the population is stead or slightly declining, so increased application times to accumulate more preference points may occur in the future if they reduce permits issued per year like they did in 2013. (8500 permits from 9000)

Any way you slice it, the odds are not-so-great of an adult trying to earn a bear permit in WI in the forseeable futre.

I'm happy my daughter has an excellent opportunity later this summer to hunt bear.

Back to the topic at hand, low recoil slug or .243, and using what loads?

Bears aren't hard to kill, that is the simple reality. Good hits and they die like deer. Since she shoots the .243 well, stick some Partitions in it and go hope for a big one. Having said that; while they are easy to kill they can be a bitch to find if they run. That's a good reason for more gun, but thats not it the cards in her case. Arrows work too.

We go through our fair share of bears here. 12 this spring. Best three skulls last year on my little farm were 21 5/8, 20 1/2 and 19 1/2".

quote:

It happens to be in the State with more B&C bears than any other. In the Zone with more B&C golds than any others. In the county with the most B&C entries for Black bear than any other in the USA.

@Stonecreek and @theback40 is your opinion the same in light of the facts above?

Yes.

B&C scores only the size of the skull, which is not necessarily indicative of the weight. Body size and weight has much more to do with the available forage than with skull size. Bears which range in areas with an abundance of certain cultivated crops can get to be quite heavy regardless of their skull measurements. Bears in the deep forest where there are no salmon streams or cultivated orchards must make a living on grass and forbs and rarely get very heavy. Most people can't believe how skinny a bear carcass is when it is skinned and hanging. Shave the fur off of them and they look more like dogs than hippos.

Here's hoping your daughter gets a chance at a really large bear (both weight and skull measurment). Regardless of its size her .243 will kill it as dead as any other centerfire.

I assume she is shooting from a blind in which case Id advise a head shot with a 243..They like most any rifle can kill about anything under the right circumstances, but 22s and 6MMs generally won't leave a blood trail on bear as that fur sucks up blood like a sponge, and pine forest floors are damp and hard to track in sometimes...Ive had to track more than a few bear shot by hunters with minimal calibers, mostly 243 Win.s, and 250 calibers..and the 250 savage is one of my all time favorite calibers but not for bear..

I agree a 7x57 would be a good idea at some point for a young'un...My kids shot a lot of stuff with the 130 gr speer..

One might consider a mod. 94 win in 25-35 or even a 30-30 (perhaps loaded down with the 170 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS) both my boys at 8 liked the two 94s best for quit a long time, up into their 20s...

Use a sound moderator works both for noise and recoil.

Not happening in the majority of US States, including this one. But yes, a moderator would be a wonderful solution that would allow a person to use a larger caliber weapon effectively.

If she places a good bullet in the heart or double lung that Bears life will be counted in seconds.
Have her concentrate on perfect shots and study Bear anatomy, the key is to shoot it well, then it won't matter a lick what kind of blood trail is there.
I would recommend a Barnes TTSX or similar mono metal bullet, yes Partitions are fine but a Mono will penetrate even deeper.
Yes Ray is right a headshot is dramatic, so is a neck shot but if she can hit a Bear in the brain or neckbone she can also heart shoot it with a better margin for error.
Just my opinion but I don't think she will be under gunned if she shoots well and calm.
Being prepared before the shot is the key, know exactly where to shoot and when.

quote:

Originally posted by Rookhawk:
Not happening in the majority of US States, including this one. But yes, a moderator would be a wonderful solution that would allow a person to use a larger caliber weapon effectively.

The majority of States allow the use of a suppressor for hunting big game, as of 2015 there were 33. However, I'm sure Illinois will probably never join that list. If the HPA hadn't died you might of had a chance.

So much depends on the conditions under which you hunt..ON a bear bait at 75 yards my kids and grandkids used my 25-35, its deadly up close with that long 117 bullet at 2300 FPS, on bear...and leaves a good blood trail as does a 30-30..I shot many black bear over the years with it and a 30-30..Black bear are not hard to kill, they are hard to track...

Bears are easy to kill. Take a decently sized fast opening bullet, drive it fast and deep enough through one or both shoulders and wreck lungs, plumbing, inconvenience the nervous system, everything that keeps it alive and half of what holds it up. Its over, and its easier than falling down a well. The more you vary from that recipe the worse it gets.

If your daughter is 1/2 the hunter you say she is, and I have no doubt she is as I had a daughter that age who also was an avid hunter and is now guiding brown bear hunters.

She know bears are different and so just explain to her that she might need a little bigger bullet in her gun and it will recoil a little bit more. Use some 100 gr Partitions and sharpen the skinning knife !

Black bears are pussys in terms of difficulty to kill. I’ve killed quite a few with arrows and seen others do the same.
A 243 with a good 85/100 grain deep penetrating bullets is more than adequate for black bear of any size.

Certainly lots of opinions. As for bears being easy to kill.......Maybe under the right conditions. One of the top ten largest grizzlies (at the time) was shot by an aboriginal woman who was picking berries. The bear had stood up and she shot it in the mouth with a 22 short. I don't think that makes the 22 a bear gun ! Small bears are easy to kill in my experience. Bigger black bears not so much. As mentioned they can be extremely hard to track. Bears tend to be quite fatty. The combination of the thick hair and the body fat tend to plug the entrance wound. So a bullet that enters leaves very little blood to track. The exit hole lets out a lot more blood making them a lot easier to find. What ever caliber you and your daughter choose I would strongly suggest the heaviest weight bullet available with a stout construction that has a good chance of the bullet exiting the animal. Partitions, A frames or Barnes X would top the list.

quote:

Originally posted by Rookhawk:
Another option I considered is slipping a "Mickey Finn" into her .243 on the day of the hunt, a heavier recoiling .243 with a better bullet than a Hornady SST 87gr option.

However, as I perused nosler.com they only make an 85gr partition as an option. More muzzle velocity and better construction, but not sure its a monumental leap forward.

Barnes makes a TTSX boattail 80gr option with again more recoil and muzzle velocity, but perhaps not a monumental leap forward from what we have on the table already for the .243.

Federal makes a 100gr nosler partition load, so perhaps that's the best option of the above?

Norma has a 100gr Oryx loading for .243.


In the shotgun slug world, the only remotely manageable slug I could find in 20ga was the Hornady 250gr Sabot FTX Custom LIte, 2-3/4" with a MV of 1600 and 1421 ft lbs of energy. (which is actually a lot less when you go from a 28" test barrel to a 22" real barrel, then realize at 50 yards to the target its more like 900ft lbs.

I would go with the above recommendation.

I use Hornady Monoflex slugs in my 20 gauge for deer. They penetrate very well and we shoot to 200 yards with it. It kicks a fair bit more than a 243 though.