I can usually make a post about someone shooting a deer with a .223. My son in law shot a very nice buck, but he used a bow. I haven't been out yet as it has been hot and I like to wait until the flies are gone. Maybe I can take someone out with a .223. Ol Kabluey is up in Alaska in his cabin and doesn't have internet.

My son Matthew used a 223 loaded with the 50 gr Raptor from Cutting Edge this past weekend to shoot his very first deer. Shot was around 50 yards, raking rear, took out one lung, deer went 20-25 yards and piled up stone cold.

I don't hunt deer, and I am a big bore sort of fellow. Make no mistake however, a 223 loaded with these bullets, and hit proper, there is no survival. Do not make a bad shot, with this small caliber, there won't be a blood trail to follow. But hit the vitals with this bullet, and the show is finished, this is guaranteed. To date a few of the locals here have shot 25-30 deer with these bullets, both 40 gr and 50 gr, there have been no survivors, and more than half of these dropped to the shot. Wound channels have been extreme, many broadsides have exited, including the 40 gr Raptor.

Hey Michael,

What powder were you using for the 50 grainers? Plan on loading some up for my brother for some hogs this spring.

Seasons... I have used 27/WW 748, but what gave the best all around results with all these CEB .224s has been RL 10X..... 24/RL 10X with the 50 Raptor. 3300 22-24 inches, 3200 20 inches, 3050 in 16 inches.

Michael

First off, great looking buck, congratulations to the hunter.

Second, I also am a Big Bore fan, but your statement below, from my experience with clients shooting .223's, fits everyone and every .223 bullet and is as accurate a statement as I have seen on the whole .223 for deer issue.

quote:

I don't hunt deer, and I am a big bore sort of fellow. Make no mistake however, a 223 loaded with these bullets, and hit proper, there is no survival. Do not make a bad shot, with this small caliber, there won't be a blood trail to follow. But hit the vitals with this bullet, and the show is finished, this is guaranteed.

I was wondering when CM was going make some trouble. I'm with you on the cool down. I hunted about 4 days in the last week and fighting off skeeters is not fun. Mornings are fine but afternoons suck. Hell, the leaves haven't even dropped yet.

My only rifle deer so far this year was with my 223 WSSM shooting a 55 ttsx at 3790 fps. Whitetail doe at 248 yards. I head shot it straight on and had to finish it off at 10 yards with my 45 colt blackhawk.

Flame on....

Isn't there a thread about the use of 223 on deer that is pages long.

quote:

Isn't there a thread about the use of 223 on deer that is pages long.

quote:

A

thread, try several threads on that subject.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Isn't there a thread about the use of 223 on deer that is pages long.

It's a annual event. CM posts about his or his families success killing deer that year with a .223 & people start posting how it's unethical. The counter argument is people hitting deer in ass with magnums they can't shoot. Ultimately it plays out the same every year but it's an annual event so you either ignore it enjoy it for the entertainment value.

My AR-15 this year was particularly good to me also. I was able to take a small-average mule deer buck with it this season at around 125-130 yards.

One shot and it stood for a while and then down. Combo was a 40g. Nosler BT bith RL-7 under it for 3675 fps over my chronograph. I had low expectation when I bought my AR as I already had 3 varmints rigs that were set up and shooting some great groups. A .223, 22-250 and a .243 but this AR came into it's own after a little experimenting with some groups that were 1.25-1.50" at 100 yards. The other varminters will go under that.

It's a kick to shoot it and load up a 20 round mag with 12-15 rounds and you're good to go for all the shooting you do that day. I had a couple of really long shots at coyotes that day before I shot the buck, but didn't connect.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Isn't there a thread about the use of 223 on deer that is pages long.

quote:

A

thread, try several threads on that subject.

I think '223 on deer' should have it's own forum, so as to not spam up the small bore forum every six months or so.

quote:

I think '223 on deer' should have it's own forum, so as to not spam up the small bore forum every six months or so.

+1000 on that.

If someone shoots a deer with a .223, you shouldn't post it on this small cal forum. It takes up bandwidth and forces the magnum guys to read it. You sure don't want to make someone read something they don't want to read especially on the small cal forum.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
If someone shoots a deer with a .223, you shouldn't post it on this small cal forum. It takes up bandwidth and forces the magnum guys to read it. You sure don't want to make someone read something they don't want to read especially on the small cal forum.

I have shot a ton of deer with small calibers 22 hornet, 222,223, 22-250, 220 swift, 6BR, 243 ect..they work, and with good bullets like Michel458 mentioned above, work well. I tend to like heavier calibers too, but my little styer pro-hunter 223, TC encore 220 swift, and Blaser 6BR seem to get a work out every year people like shooting them because they can place their shot and not worry about what it coming. I am sticking with a 9.3x62 this season though--well maybe!

Ed

Carpetman, over the years I have seen probably as many if not more deer killed with the various .223-.224 cartridges than you have.

I have also seen a lot of deer and other game hit and lost with 7mm Rem Mag's and bigger calibers.

Point is, It Is Not The Caliber that is the deciding factor, but the ability of the person shooting the gun.

The concept is however, the smaller the caliber the more precise the shooter has to be with their shot placement. With that said, the exact same thing applies to folks like me using a .35 Whelen or a .375 H&H. I have to place the bullet properly, because if I don't, I will end up with a wounded animal.

The difference is that a less than perfect shot with a larger will still result in a wound that will leave a blood trail that can be followed.

From experience, a .223/.224 does not always leave a blood trail that can be followed.

If a person is comfortable and competent using a .223/.224 for deer and it is legal where they hunt, by all means go for it.

Some folks just believe that there are better choices.

FWIW,
I've killed deer with 20 caliber through 45 caliber.

However, in light of that I've a question fer all ya'll.

Have you ever done anything where you did not use the best tool for the job, or gave something less than your best effort knowing that you'd done it many times before when using the right tools and giving your best effort, but because you'd been sucessuful, you got careless, or let your guard down and you ended up "screwing the pooch". I know how I feel when that happens
How do you feel, or what do you say to yourself in your heart of hearts when you use a "less than optimal" caliber to shoot a deer and you ending up losing it.
That's one of the reasons I typically start at 6.5 mm and go up.

Carry on gents!

Best,

GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
FWIW,
I've killed deer with 20 caliber through 45 caliber.

However, in light of that I've a question fer all ya'll.

Have you ever done anything where you did not use the best tool for the job, or gave something less than your best effort knowing that you'd done it many times before when using the right tools and giving your best effort, but because you'd been sucessuful, you got careless, or let your guard down and you ended up "screwing the pooch". I know how I feel when that happens
How do you feel, or what do you say to yourself in your heart of hearts when you use a "less than optimal" caliber to shoot a deer and you ending up losing it.
That's one of the reasons I typically start at 6.5 mm and go up.

Carry on gents!

Best,

GWB

Getting a little saucy there Rita, not your usual mild self. I take exception to your 6.5 mm starting point because I happen to believe the 257 Roberts is one of the greatest calibers ever invented!

Scott,

Ya got me!

I went back and re-read last nights posts. Words do mean things and perhaps I should have used another word than optimal.

Looking back. I can think of five different deer, two being good bucks, that I've killed with quarterbores in the last 10 years or so.


This guy was taken with a 25-06, 110 gr. Accubonds. It was a high double lung shot. He ran about 70 yds in a straight line and piled up.



This buck was taken at +/- 120 yds IIRC. It was in the rut and he was coming in on the run to a doe that was at a spin cast feeder. Shot him straight on and broke his spine.
I was using a 257 Weatherby with 100 gr. partitions. He dropped at the shot.




This doe was shot at 80 yds +/- with a 257 Roberts and 110 gr. Accubonds. Heart shot, and she ran about 75-80 yards and piled up.





Fourth was a cull buck that I don't have a picture of. Shot him with a different 257 Bob at 100 yds+, high lung shot, 110 gr. Accubonds, he ran about 50 yds and piled up.

The fifth was a doe. Same shot, same rifle same bullet, same results. She ran in a semi circle about 150 yds and piled up under a tree. Four of the 5 were in an area where I could watch them run till they expired.

Most of the time the areas that I'm hunting now are very thick and I don't have that luxury.

However, having said that, I just got in a Cooper model 21 Classic in 257 Roberts AI that I plan to use tomorrow afternoon if I get there in time.



Where I will sit is an open area that I can see for about 220 degrees to a distance of 400 yds. or so. Once again I'm using Accubonds.


Perhaps another way of saying it is, due to the predominantly thick nature of the terrain where I hunt, if a line of rifles were stacked against a wall, starting with 22 caliber, going up throuh 45 caliber, and I was told my shots could be from 30 yds to 400 yds, and my next few meals depended on the results, I'd prolly pick up something 6.5 or above.

Best,


GWB

Lora uses a .257 Robert's normally with 117 grain factory loaded Remington Core-Locts, round nose not spire points. I have shot several deer with it and for both of us results have been fairly predictable on heart-lung shots.

When hit the animals go from 10 to 60 yards and pile up.

The advantage I see of the 6.5/.264 diameter cartridges is heavier bullets and hunting in an area with thick or fairly thick brush I feel that the extra diameter and bullet weight will result in a larger exit wound which normally translates into a better blood trail.

That being said, under normal circumstances if I am going to be doing the shooting it will be either my .35 Whelen or .300 Weatherby or .375 H&H.

Do I NEED to use them, No!

Are they necessary for white tails, No!

Are they fun as Hell to hunt with, You Damn Right!!! That is why I use them.

AS has been said in these discussions before and will be said again in future ones on this topic, If A Person Is Comfortable Shooting deer With A .223/.224, Than By All Means go for It.

Just do Not Expect EVERYONE To agree with That Choice.

Just messing with you GW. I'm starting to lean towards a little more gun because of the terrain I hunt. It's thick and shots are always under 100 yards. I'll most like take my 338 Federal next time I go out because I'm more likely to shoot hogs than deer and it's going to be near thick cover.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
I can usually make a post about someone shooting a deer with a .223. Maybe I can take someone out with a .223. Ol Kabluey is up in Alaska in his cabin and doesn't have internet.

I'm back in GA, and got internet again. I've been busy clearing trails and setting up deer stands. I messed around in AK too long since I should'a been doing this in Sept. The farm hasn't been hunted in many years, and I'm surprised how many deer roam this place. I can't remember ever seeing a place with so many scrapes, rubs, trails. I've been riding around several times after dinner using a spotlight to see what's out there on the farm and adjacent farms. I see 15 or 20 deer each evening. Lately I've seen lots of bucks. The rut is definately happening. Two days ago I saw the biggest buck I've ever seen about 8 pm as I returned from town via the back dirt road. I definately wouldn't want to waste such a buck by wounding it with a pea shooter 223.

Last night after my evening rideabout as I turned in the driveway, the headlights swept across the pecan orchard revealed four does and and pretty 8 point. He wasn't particularly large, but as he looked directly at me I could see that his spead was wider than his ears. The one I saw two evening ago made this average 8 pointer look like a dwarf.

I have one stand up, and letting the dust settle for a few days. My cousin is coming over today and help with two more. Hopefully I'll have some pictures to post soon.

BTW, yesterday I could hear the pigs arguing down on the creek bottom. They haven't discovered the nearby corn feeder yet, but it's just a matter of time.

I broke out and limbered up the AR 15 in 6.5 Grendel. It says it's ready when I am.

KB

I knew the mention of a .223 would bring Kabluewy out to sing the praises of such a fine round. He is to the .223 what Jack O'Connor was to the .270.

I think you are a little mixed up there CM.

Let's try this statment for validity:

The 223 is to varmints what the 270 is to deer and other similar medium/big game.

Naw, even when said well, the 223 ain't even that good, certainly not good enough to say in the same sentence with the great 270, even with trying to put it in context.

LB

Why don't you two twinkies get a room!!!!!

i'm not really a fan of the small calibers for deer. i usually use a 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5 grendel, or 308. but i built this rifle, (an m40 clone in 223 with a 8 twist barrel) with a fast twist just for shooting the longer 22 cal bullets. these two guys were killed with the 64 grn winchester bullet. the hog above was the first victim...dropped on the spot and kicked for about 30 seconds. the deer, my biggest in 40 years of hunting, was hit in front of the right shoulder and the bullet stopped under the skin at the left side rear most rib. with this very limited experience, my view on using a 223 for deer and bigger game is that it is an experts rifle. capable of doing the job with proper bullet and bullet placement but no room for error. i'll still use it for bigger stuff occasionally because the rifle is so cool, but i have better rifles for the bigger stuff.

Budiceale wrote:

quote:

my view on using a 223 for deer and bigger game is that it is an experts rifle. capable of doing the job with proper bullet and bullet placement but no room for error.

That is what boils down too, nothing more - nothing less. Proper bullet placement, regardless of the caliber used is what all of us are supposed to be striving for when hunting regardless of what we are hunting.

The problem, from first hand observations during my hunting career is that not everyone has the experience or ability to place that first shot properly and that is why, I for one, do not believe the .223/.224 cartridges are the best choice for deer hunting. Hunting deer, especially in Texas for the most part is not much different than target shooting. The majority of it is done from basically a bench rest at a known/measured range from a target, in this case deer, so it is not all that different than shooting at a paper target at the gun range.

As others have said in every one of these discussions on the use of the .223's/.224's, if the shooter is confident enough/proficient enough with such calibers, then by all means go for it. However that does not mean everyone thinks the .223's/.224's are the be all/end all when it comes to shooting deer.

I find it amusing that here on the small cal forum that EVERY thread about deer and .22 cal will bring on many trolls singing the praises of large cals. I don't see small cal guys trolling on the archery forum telling the guys to use a rifle. I don't see small cal guys going to the large cal section telling them they should be using a .22 cal. The large cal guys frequently tell how you can shoot through trees or mountains or whatever obstacle and pretty much hit them anywhere at any angle. Advocate shots that I don't care what you have, my opinion is you should pass on the shot. Advocate that the kill zone is enlarged---you can make a bad shot and the bigger gun compensates. Heck with a magnum just getting close on the shot is good enough. And oh yes use PREMIUM bullets by all means. Plain old cup and core have worked for me, but PREMIUMS would kill them deader. We are told repeatedly things that can't be done, but we have experienced doing them numerous times. Told things like the 30-06 is not that good but a .300 magnum is the ticket (I'm to listen to a person that knocks the 30-06?) I guess us small cal guys are so inexperienced that we need big brother guiding us.

The problem with your rant, is that the Small Caliber topic area, IS NOT LIMITED TO .223/.224 ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.243/.257 etc. etc. etc. are definitely not medium bores nor large bores.

What is it about people merely stating that they do not believe that .223's/.224's are the Be All-End All choice for hunting white tail deer!

There Is NO Perfect Caliber For Hunting White Tails, and this site and this world would be damn boring if hunters were limited to One Specific Caliber.

I have not noticed ANYONE stating that the various .223/.224 cartridges cannot kill white tail deer!

All people are saying, is that as an individual, they simply Do Not believe the .223's/.224's are a good choice under all hunting conditions.

I like pork chops, ham and bacon but I don't go to Muslim or Jewish services and tell those folks they should eat it.

i'm not trying to tell anybody how to do anything. just stating my opinion. plus i needed an excuse to post those pictures

It's always the same BS. My criticism of the 223 has always been that it's a marginal cartridge for deer, and it seems to draw certain types out of the closet. I have no criticism of those who use it and respect its limitations. But at the same time I think those who make no distinction between 8" twist / heavy bullets and slow twist with varmint bullets are just plain dense and wont listen. It seems to me like the 223 draws out such types more than any other cartridge, and they justify very loudly.

IMO, it's not a question of respecting their choices, but they need to be told they are not correct. Even then they don't get it. Carpetman is a perfect example. He has had ample opportunity to learn something from all these threads on the use of the 223 on deer, yet he hasn't changed his mind about anything that he didn't already think from the beginning. He has just become better at writing justifications and saying it, but it's the same old BS as he said over two years ago.

KB

Hey Kabluey do you like bacon? Did you attend a Synagog yesterday?

KB,

glad to see you are still counted among the land of the living.
Wishing you and yours the best the season has to offer.

GWB

Kabluewy--I have more than ample experience that either Winchester bulk packed or Remington bulk packed 55 grain cup and core bullets placed in the right spot kill a deer pretty instantly. Upon shot I go right now to the downed deer and finish it if needed. Now tell us about your vast experience where your buddy neck shot--at least you think that is where hit as he is a good shot. Said deer went down was bleating and flailing around, but was not approached for a finishing shot as the terrain was too rough for your golf cart. Said deer got up and left. For this reason you have all this experience to determine the .224 is not effective.

quote:

Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
Just messing with you GW. I'm starting to lean towards a little more gun because of the terrain I hunt. It's thick and shots are always under 100 yards. I'll most like take my 338 Federal next time I go out because I'm more likely to shoot hogs than deer and it's going to be near thick cover.

Scott,



At my age, some/any attention is better than none.

I did not get the big one.......








but did draw first blood with the 257 AI on a small rooter.....




four came in, three were black, this one was a dalmation. Sometimes it don't pay to stand out in a crowd.


Deer weren't moving, and we only got three hogs betwen 8 guys, but we made the best of it...........



a pot of my Texas Barking Spider Beans, Baby Back Ribs,




applewood smoked hindquarter off a 145 lb. sow we killed



dutch oven blackberry cobler.......

Deer camp life is tough, and it ain't easy being macho.

Best,

GWB

G.W.,

Looks like a blast. Keep posting those pictures. You reminded me that I need to take more pictures when I go out.

quote:

Originally posted by budiceale:

I like that rifle! I did a nice M40 copy using a SPS earlier this year.

Nice buck too.